Pennock's Fiero Forum
  General Fiero Chat - Archive
  need opinion from car stereo gurus

T H I S   I S   A N   A R C H I V E D   T O P I C
  

Email This Page to Someone! | Printable Version


need opinion from car stereo gurus by cowan1984
Started on: 01-06-2008 06:07 PM
Replies: 21
Last post by: NeoNot on 01-09-2008 08:36 PM
cowan1984
Member
Posts: 244
From: Spooner, WI
Registered: Nov 2007


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-06-2008 06:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cowan1984Click Here to visit cowan1984's HomePageSend a Private Message to cowan1984Direct Link to This Post
This is a schematic of the system i may eventually install in my car. I found this image a long time ago and modified it for my use. I'm not super car-stereo-literate, so I'd like to know if this is going to work right. I'm not looking to win competitions, just have really really nice sound.

anyhow, here it is, critique.

------------------
'84 Engine Swap Under Construction
Visit Project Website!
http://cowan1984.xtreemhost.com/

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
tinymx
Member
Posts: 18
From: ohio
Registered: Sep 2006


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-06-2008 06:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tinymxClick Here to visit tinymx's HomePageSend a Private Message to tinymxDirect Link to This Post
Why not just use the head unit to run your seat speakers? Do you have the 4x10 dash speakers or the 4x6 rear pillar speakers ? I do not see them on your schematic.
IP: Logged
cowan1984
Member
Posts: 244
From: Spooner, WI
Registered: Nov 2007


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-06-2008 07:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cowan1984Click Here to visit cowan1984's HomePageSend a Private Message to cowan1984Direct Link to This Post
I'll be doing a stealth dash, no speakers in the dash aside from the center channel I may install. I thought about running the 3.5" off the head and going with a 4-channel as they're easier to find...

should add a few details, the memory for the head unit is still going to come off the car, and the subs (if i can still find them) are going to go behind the seat, blaupunkt thin profile. only some 3" deep IIRC.
IP: Logged
dcfox
Member
Posts: 1570
From: Hamshire,TX,USA
Registered: Apr 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-06-2008 10:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dcfoxSend a Private Message to dcfoxDirect Link to This Post
Looks good for the most part.
I would definitely run everything through the amp and not use head unit power for any speakers.
Here's my take...and a few things I noticed:
1. I would lose the center channel.It's not really necessary for an audio system in a car.
2. Make sure that when running that amplifier in 6 channel mode...that each of the channels is 2 ohm capable.That's the load that the channels running the seat speakers will see.
3. Also...be sure you run one left channel seat speaker and one left channel seat speaker in each seat(not one channel to the drivers seat and the other channel to the passenger seat...this would throw the sound stage off tremendously).
4. Even though the subs are shallow mount subs...make sure you can get adequate air space in the sub enclosures(see the sub specs for the requirements).
5.Be sure to show us pics once it's done(heck...even progress pics).

------------------
--David

Black '86 GT-under construction
Silver '87 GT-daily driver


IP: Logged
pontiacman63383
Member
Posts: 819
From: warrenton, mo
Registered: Jun 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-06-2008 10:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pontiacman63383Send a Private Message to pontiacman63383Direct Link to This Post
wrong post

[This message has been edited by pontiacman63383 (edited 01-06-2008).]

IP: Logged
crytical point
Member
Posts: 569
From: sanford FL USA
Registered: Feb 2006


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-07-2008 04:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for crytical pointSend a Private Message to crytical pointDirect Link to This Post
I would rather use an amplifier instead of the head unit to power speakers because the clarity from the amp will be much better and it saves your head unit from the heat. I like the set up and curious of why a capacitor instead of just upgrading the existing charging system to handle everything and then some if you decide to add more later. Also I wouln't run a center channel with that set up unless I had a signal processor and a amp that supports it, also whem you run the seat speakers I would run a right and left to each one or run them in series if you are lazy.
IP: Logged
cowan1984
Member
Posts: 244
From: Spooner, WI
Registered: Nov 2007


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-07-2008 04:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cowan1984Click Here to visit cowan1984's HomePageSend a Private Message to cowan1984Direct Link to This Post
I didn't draw the pic, i just edited it. and i was wondering about the necessity of the capacitor as well.

can you detail how i'd go about getting a 2 ohm load? i thought speakers were sold in whatever ohm they're sold in, can you change it?
IP: Logged
Philphine
Member
Posts: 6136
From: louisville,ky. usa
Registered: Feb 2000


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 54
Rate this member

Report this Post01-07-2008 07:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PhilphineSend a Private Message to PhilphineDirect Link to This Post
looks like a winner to me. a lot like what i'd want for my 86gt. already brought seat speakers for it and had the 10" subs too (till somebody stole 'em ) the only changes i'd make are...

j.l. audio 500/5 amp. really just read reviews and have no personal experience with it, but i like the low power/ambient rear channel option and power distribution (2x100 front, 2x25 rear, and 250x1 sub)

no center channel. i have one in my 87 coupe (and one in my truck for a while) and it's interesting to play with but not really needed.

move the fronts to the dead pedal area instead of the doors. to get them as far from you as you can (and makes a center channel even less nesessary).

no eq. i have a simple 3 band in the head i'm using, and most amps now have x-overs built in. that's enough for me.

really personal preference type things. i've gotten older and make simpler systems now. if you put it in just like that you ought to be happy with it.

getting a 2ohm load? it's not the speakers so much as how you wire them...

well i started writing out an explanation but someone better at searching the web could probaly find you a good page with a decent 101 type lesson. it's not hard, but i'm not sure how good a tutor i am.
IP: Logged
dcfox
Member
Posts: 1570
From: Hamshire,TX,USA
Registered: Apr 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-07-2008 09:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dcfoxSend a Private Message to dcfoxDirect Link to This Post
Ok...lets see if this makes any sense...

I did a couple of diagrams in Photoshop to try and explain things.


Here's how different wiring alters the ohm load of a pair of speakers...




And...IF...your amplifier can handle a 2 ohm stereo load for the seat speakers(when running in multi channel mode),this is how the speakers in your seats should be wired...




Hope this helps.

------------------
--David

Black '86 GT-under construction
Silver '87 GT-daily driver


[This message has been edited by dcfox (edited 01-07-2008).]

IP: Logged
fierosound
Member
Posts: 15141
From: Calgary, Canada
Registered: Nov 1999


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 286
Rate this member

Report this Post01-07-2008 09:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierosoundClick Here to visit fierosound's HomePageSend a Private Message to fierosoundDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cowan1984:

I didn't draw the pic, i just edited it.


I gotta update my webpages. I've changed out a lot of equipment since then.
http://fierosound.com/images/STEREOwiring.jpg

------------------

3.4L S/C 87 GT www.fierosound.com
2002/2003/2004 World of Wheels Winner &
Multiple IASCA Stereo Award Winner

IP: Logged
cowan1984
Member
Posts: 244
From: Spooner, WI
Registered: Nov 2007


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-07-2008 10:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cowan1984Click Here to visit cowan1984's HomePageSend a Private Message to cowan1984Direct Link to This Post
LOL i knew sooner or later you'd say hi. I couldn't remember whose site I saw that on. Hope you don't mind me borrowing ideas?

and thanks dcfox for the seat speaker wiring, that clarifies things alot.

How does this version look?

Wired seat speakers right (i hope)
went from single 6ch amp to 5CH AMP
removed EQQ, capacitor, antenna booster and center channel speaker

[This message has been edited by cowan1984 (edited 01-08-2008).]

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
dcfox
Member
Posts: 1570
From: Hamshire,TX,USA
Registered: Apr 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2008 12:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dcfoxSend a Private Message to dcfoxDirect Link to This Post
Another thing to consider...
Some head units come with 3 sets of pre-amp outputs.(front.rear,and non fading sub with a level control).This would be great for the setup you have pictured.
Also...you don't have to get a mono amp for the subs.
But...look at the top pic I posted.If you get 4 ohm subs...you'll either need a mono(one channel) amp that can handle a 2 ohm mono load,or a 2 channel amp.Most stereo amps now days have a built in crossover,so you could run a stereo amp on the subs without the need for an external crossover.Nearly all mono amps have a low pass crossover built in.
IP: Logged
cowan1984
Member
Posts: 244
From: Spooner, WI
Registered: Nov 2007


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2008 12:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cowan1984Click Here to visit cowan1984's HomePageSend a Private Message to cowan1984Direct Link to This Post
so I should stay with a 4ch speaker amp and 2ch sub amp? my head unit has the preamp outs, and if i get a different one i'll make sure it does too.

4ch: FR,FL,RR,LR

2ch: R sub,L sub

Correct?

have to edit the diagram again...hopefully this is the last draft.


as far as the x-overs, i just want a high-pass in the line with the tweeters to keep low requencies out...looking at the f-mods on crutchfield, Item #069900076. they offer many Hz levels, how do I know which I need?

another question...how does running speakers in 2ohm like that affect the RMS? the 4ohm seat speakers are rated at 2-25 w RMS and the amp i'm looking at puts out 50W rms in 2 ohm.

[This message has been edited by cowan1984 (edited 01-08-2008).]

IP: Logged
dcfox
Member
Posts: 1570
From: Hamshire,TX,USA
Registered: Apr 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2008 01:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dcfoxSend a Private Message to dcfoxDirect Link to This Post
just turn the gain down some on that amp...the speakers should be ok as long as you don't push them too hard.
IP: Logged
Australian
Member
Posts: 4701
From: Sydney Australia
Registered: Sep 2004


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2008 02:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AustralianClick Here to visit Australian's HomePageSend a Private Message to AustralianDirect Link to This Post
Looks ok seems not enough mid range. 2 x 10 inch subs will drown out 2 x 6" woofers if all you wanna hear is doof then go ahead it isn't a bad design. As far as the seat speakers go being full range speakers you will want volume control on those. Your 6 inch speakers will be working hard i would add more amps

wanna sticky beak at my half built car stereo http://www.muckup.com there is 2 x 800 watt amps in one box and 2 x electronic crossover networks and portable and that is a dual voice coil woofer has 4 lugs for 2 amps. My 1 x 10" sub is harder and louder than the 2 x 15" it replaced.
IP: Logged
crytical point
Member
Posts: 569
From: sanford FL USA
Registered: Feb 2006


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2008 01:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for crytical pointSend a Private Message to crytical pointDirect Link to This Post
My set up is straight forward and has no problems and I see no reason to put a relay on the power line to the amps because the remote will turn it on or off with the radio.

But here is my diagram if you want to use it for pointers.
IP: Logged
NeoNot
Member
Posts: 171
From: Central Missouri
Registered: Aug 2007


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2008 10:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NeoNotSend a Private Message to NeoNotDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cowan1984:

LOL i knew sooner or later you'd say hi. I couldn't remember whose site I saw that on. Hope you don't mind me borrowing ideas?

and thanks dcfox for the seat speaker wiring, that clarifies things alot.

How does this version look?

Wired seat speakers right (i hope)
went from single 6ch amp to 5CH AMP
removed EQQ, capacitor, antenna booster and center channel speaker




For a setup like this I would recommend a good quality 5 channel amp, such as the Kicker ZX 700.5 . This amp has roughly the power level you are looking for. I however would change the design of the system quite a bit, if it was me.

I am not a big fan of the seat speakers. They pull your sound stage away from the front of the car and move it towards the rear. I am also not a big fan of multipal drivers. There is no real reason to install 14 speakers in your car, other than to say you did it. Some of the best sounding cars get by with as little as 4 to 5 speakers. The major thing one has to consider is the crossover points, speaker location and power supplied to each speaker.

Lets start with:
Speaker location
Subs usually play any frequency below 120 hz. If you cross the sub over higher than a 120 hz you start getting directional issues. The human ear can hear frequencies down to as low at 20 hz but has a hard time locating where the sound originated from. With this in mind you can basically install a sub anywhere in a car and it will not sound any different. With this in mind find a good location for your subs that allow for the proper enclosure volume and put them there.

Once you get above 120 hz the sound become much more directional. You need to concern yourself with distances from one speaker to another, in accordation to the listening position. For example. If you installed your mids and tweeters in the kick panels and angled them towards the opposite side of the car the distance from each speaker, in relation to the listening position, will be closer to the same distance than it would if you installed the speakers in the stock location in the dash. By keeping these distances from the speakers to the listeners as equal as possible you will create a broad sound stage with a natural center channel effect. The closer you get to either set of speakers the further your stage will be pulled towards that speaker location. By using the kick panel location you can change the angle of the speaker in each panel to increase or decrease the sound level experienced by the listening position closest to that speaker. If you use the A pillars or stock speaker locations for your install you will be very limited in what you can do to change the sound stage as well as pick up additional sound reflection from the windshield than can hurt the overall sound of your system and make it become TINNY.

A good example of a kick panel installation would be: The speakers installed on the passenger kick panel would barely be vissible to the passenger but the driver will be able to see the entire surface of the speakers without turning their head. The same would hold true from the drivers side. The drivers side speakers would barely be visible to the driver but the passenger would be able to see them without turning their head. This means the biggest part of the sound will be coming from the opposite side of the car. In turn it will sound louder but since it is further away it will actually make the overall sound appear as though it is coming from the center of the dash because the listen will still recieve some sound from the speaker located directly infront of them as well.

Sorry if this is confusing. It is a little hard to explain in just text.

Now lets talk about the speakers in the seat. If you decide to install speakers in the headrest you will find that all the effect that would be achieved by the speakers being installed in the kick panels will go out the door. The reason for this is the distance from the speakers to the listener. All though you would be centered between the speakers the sound stage will change very drastically by the slightest turn of your head since you will change the distance from the speakers. Since these speakers will be playing all the frequencies that are very directional it will also pull the sound front in front of your to the rear of you since these speakers are behind your head. Even using a level control I dont believe will allow you enough control to reduce the output of these speakers enough to keep the sound coming from in front of your. Another issue with the head rest speakers is the enclosure the speaker resides in. Any speaker should be installed to keep the back of the speaker isolated from the front of the speaker. If you dont isolate the two sides of the speaker you will get cancellation of sound since the back of the speaker produces a wave that is exactly 180 degrees opposite of the wave produced from the front of the speaker. When these two waves meet the overall sound should be 0db. Ever seen the Bose noise cancelling headphones. This is exactly how they work.
Last but not least by not using the speakers in the headrest you will save yourself some bucks that you can put into other areas of your sound system and still achieve a sound that is of better quality.

Crossovers
Crossovers are used to send a certain set of frequencies to a dedicated speaker or speakers. As stated above your usually dont want your subs to play higher than 120hz. Depending on the type of mids your elect to use will determine your lowpass selection point. If at all possible try to find a mid that can play down to roughly 70 hz or slightly lower. All though a crossover filters out unwanted frequencies from your speakers it doesnt eliminate them. It simply reduces the level at which they are presented to the speaker. Most of todays crossovers are at least a 12 db crossover and most are now 18 or even 24 db. For every 3 db of change is equal to a doubling of power.

By selecting a mid that can play below the crossover point you wont leave a void in your total frequency response. I prefer to cross my subs over around 90 hz. This means my mids need to be able to play below 90hz. By selecting a mid that can play down to 70 hz I am assured of good quality sound reproduction because I am not asking the speaker to produce a frequency it isnt able to. You also achieve a much more solid front sound stage by being able to run the mids down to 90 hz.

Your crossover point between the mids and tweets will be determined by the frequency response of both speakers. If you purchase a compenent speaker set you will usually recieve a passive crossover that your install between the mid and tweets. Most mid and high end compenent sets offer a low, mid and high output selection for your tweeters to meet your listening tastes. By using the passive crossover you can also reduce the number of amplified channels your have to have. Shall we talk about amps???

Amps/Power
Do I do a 5 channel, 4 channel or a Mono amp plus a 2 channel maybe I should get a 3 channel amp???? All good questions but here are some better questions to ask yourself.

1) How much money do I want to spend on my amplifier/s?
2) How much power can my sub/compenents handle?
3) What is the resistance of my sub/compenents?
4) What features do I need in my amp?
5) Is the price on this amp to good to be true?

There are the basics, shall we address them?

1) You are the only one that can decide this. I would recommend you figure on spending somewhere between $1/3-5watts. Basically what this means is for every dollar you spend your amp should produce somewhere between 3 to 5 watts. If you spend $200 bucks you should be able to purchase a amp that produces roughly 600-1000 watts RMS at 14.4 volts, the current CAE standards. This doesnt always hold true as you can get into amps that have some really neat features but we will cover that a few questions from now.

2) Again this is something that you have to determine. You can work in one of two directions. You can select your speakers first and then find the amp/s that fits your power needs. Your other option is to select your desired power output and find a speaker that can handle this level. I must warn you that working from the amp back to the speakers can be harder as there are all kinds of amps that can produce more power than most speakers can handle. In turn I recommend working with the speakers first, then the amp.

3) The resistance of your speakers will again determine what type of amp you can run. Once you have decided on the type of speakers you would like to use start shopping for the amp/s you want to use. Make sure the total load you are going to present to the amp can be handled. For example if you are going to use 2 kicker 10 inch subs that each have a 4 ohm voice coil and you want to wire these in parrallel you must be sure the amp can opperate at a 2 ohm load. If the amp you wanted to use couldnt operate at a 2 ohm load you have two choices: 1) Look for a different amp 2) Purchase the speakers with a different resistance for the voice coils. Most speakers now a days are availible in either 2 , 4, or 8 ohm loads. This allows for a multitude of wiring options which leads to far more selections of compatible amps.

4) This is something that I think it quite important and in a lot of cases over looked. What can the amp do besides amplify the input. As stated above most quality amplifiers are now produced with at least one crossover that is selectable. By being selectable you can decide if you want the amp to work as a High pass amp for your mids and tweets or a Low pass amp for your subs. If doing a multi-amp install I would also check to make sure that the amp also has a pass through output for the next amp. With this option your amp will send any frequencies outside of the crossover point on to the next amp. This nice this about this is signal is already crossedover. This also means you now only need a RCA cable that is long enough to go from the first amp to the second amp instead of two long cables running from the indash to both amps.

Sound about sound processing??? A lot of amps are now coming with some form of user programmable equalizer built into them as well. This allows you to taylor the sound to your liking. Do you want a little more vocal? You do, well just bump up that 500 hz and 1000 hz EQ control and you now have more vocal. How about that kick drum, does it need to be tamed down a little? It does, well turn down that 60 hz EQ control just a touch. Doesnt that sound much better now??? Speaking of kick drums how about a sub level control?

Good questions. Again most quality amps now have a remote knob that can be installed anywhere in the car that allows you to control the level of the sub output. Dont confuse a level control with a bass boost. A level control allows you to adjust the overall output of the sub not just a certain frequency but since we have talked about a bass boost, what about it.

Well ok, since you asked so nicely. A bass boost allows you to increase the subs output at a selectable frequency. This frequency is usually the center point with the greatest increase and slow increases the level of the surrounding frequencies by a lower value. For example say you wanted to feel the bass drum a little more but your sub enclosure is a little on the small side by using the bass boost you can increase the output level of the sub at the selected frequency as well as the frequencies above and below.

There are more features than I listed above but these are some of the more common features found on todays amps.

5) Wow this amp produces 10000 watts, has every known features a amp could have and it only costs a $100. Is this to good to be true??? Most likely the answer is going to be YES!!! remember the little $/Watt formula above. This is a very good calculator when deciding on what amp to buy. If the amp you are looking amp does figure into that ratio, give or take maybe 2-3 watts/$ chances are it is an overrated amp and will not preform at its rated spec. Another very simple way to see if the manufacturer is lying about the output of the amp is to add all of the fuses together and multipal that number by 14.4 . This will tell you the absolute MAX POWER that the ample could possible produce. If the amp claims more power output than the combined FUSE x 14.4 It is bs!!! Here is why.

OHMS law states that a 1Watt = 1Volt x 1Amp. With that in mind lets say we have a amp that claims a total output of 2500 watts. This amp has a total of four 30 amp fuse. We take 30 x 4 this equals 120. 120 is the maximum amount of current the amp can draw before we start blowing fuses. Now we need to figure watts. To do this we take the total system voltage and multiply that by the total current. Since most amps are now rated at 14.4 volts we will use that number. Here is the max output our amp is capable of 14.4 x 120 = 1728 watts. You will notice that we are well short of 2500 watts that was claimed. This would be considered an overrated amp. With this formula in mind and the $/watt formula you should be able to find a good quality amp for a decent price.

Again I applogize for the long drawn out post. If you read this far and have a question please let me know and I will be glad to answer it as best I can. Hope some of this helps in making your decisions a little easier.
IP: Logged
cowan1984
Member
Posts: 244
From: Spooner, WI
Registered: Nov 2007


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-09-2008 12:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cowan1984Click Here to visit cowan1984's HomePageSend a Private Message to cowan1984Direct Link to This Post
WOW, thats a lot of information, it'll take me a while to digest it...but a + for you. I'm just trying to design a $800-or-less system for my car that sounds as nice as possible, without costing more than...$800. not out to win shows or thump hard enough to be heard 3 blocks away. in fact, i thought that with such a small interior, a pair of 10" subs at 150W would probably be plenty. I listen to 80's-90's rock and some talk radio, (I hate hip-hop) so the subs are just to 'feel' the bass guitar and drum, not so much to rattle the rearview off.

australian and crytical point's systems sound way overkill (and over budget) for what I'm trying to get, but thanks for sharing.

i understand your point about the seat speakers messing up the sound stage...my '84 came with them, just figured it'd be easier to keep them. but I can disconnect them and install some other round speaker int he rear pillar or something (heard that rectangular/plate speakers suck in general for sound quality? true/false?)

i also agree with you about more speakers than needed. I stated i am doing a stealth dash, so the plates in the stock dash are gone. so to replace the front stage i am putting in 5 1/4 or maybe 6 1/2 in either the door panel or kick area. tweets to round out the highs, unless they're unnecessary? and in the rear like i said some low-watt subs and rear midrange. i figured the $800 on being my hard limit, and I'm not too picky on brand names although i tend to hear good things about alpine, kenwood, infinity, RF and kicker. sony im sure is good too but haven't heard much on them. x-overs just to get the right frequencies to the right speakers, but i guess amp sdo that for you nowdays

seems every time i draw up a diagram i get more info and have to revise it...so hopefully with the parameters i gave above someone can get an idea of what i'm looking for and perhaps draw somethign up in MS paint quick with a list of speakers and subs used to hit my sound and budget target. I'm going to end up buying a few books on this subject i guess...i want to do it right, and do it on budget...and ideally i dont want stuff out in the interior of the car, just gives greedy thieves a reason to steal my hard work.
IP: Logged
NeoNot
Member
Posts: 171
From: Central Missouri
Registered: Aug 2007


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-09-2008 01:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NeoNotSend a Private Message to NeoNotDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cowan1984:

WOW, thats a lot of information, it'll take me a while to digest it...but a + for you. I'm just trying to design a $800-or-less system for my car that sounds as nice as possible, without costing more than...$800. not out to win shows or thump hard enough to be heard 3 blocks away. in fact, i thought that with such a small interior, a pair of 10" subs at 150W would probably be plenty. I listen to 80's-90's rock and some talk radio, (I hate hip-hop) so the subs are just to 'feel' the bass guitar and drum, not so much to rattle the rearview off.

australian and crytical point's systems sound way overkill (and over budget) for what I'm trying to get, but thanks for sharing.

i understand your point about the seat speakers messing up the sound stage...my '84 came with them, just figured it'd be easier to keep them. but I can disconnect them and install some other round speaker int he rear pillar or something (heard that rectangular/plate speakers suck in general for sound quality? true/false?)

i also agree with you about more speakers than needed. I stated i am doing a stealth dash, so the plates in the stock dash are gone. so to replace the front stage i am putting in 5 1/4 or maybe 6 1/2 in either the door panel or kick area. tweets to round out the highs, unless they're unnecessary? and in the rear like i said some low-watt subs and rear midrange. i figured the $800 on being my hard limit, and I'm not too picky on brand names although i tend to hear good things about alpine, kenwood, infinity, RF and kicker. sony im sure is good too but haven't heard much on them. x-overs just to get the right frequencies to the right speakers, but i guess amp sdo that for you nowdays

seems every time i draw up a diagram i get more info and have to revise it...so hopefully with the parameters i gave above someone can get an idea of what i'm looking for and perhaps draw somethign up in MS paint quick with a list of speakers and subs used to hit my sound and budget target. I'm going to end up buying a few books on this subject i guess...i want to do it right, and do it on budget...and ideally i dont want stuff out in the interior of the car, just gives greedy thieves a reason to steal my hard work.



For you music taste I bet you would be more than happy with a single 10. This could be installed behind your passenger seat allowing for a large box to house the sub. Another nice thing about going with a single sub is using the money the additional sub would cost to purchase a larger amp for said sub. My personal choice for subs would be as follows.

Sub
For a shallow mount install:
1) Pioneer TS-SW1041D or TS-SW2541D $100 http://caraudio.pgpartner.c...642ddf deaafd3471128e
2) Kicker Comp VT10 $75 http://www.techronics.com/i...ct_id=5692&aff=45847

5 inches or more deep
1) Infinity Perfect 10 $130 http://caraudio.pgpartner.c...b0 1be1dabadf1c630808
2) JL Audio 10W3 $110 http://caraudio.pgpartner.c...6e7165b6f 0a9e2e7c492

Seperates
1) Infinity Pefect 6.1 $190 www.cartronixplus.com

2) MB Quart RCE216 $150 http://www.techronics.com/i...play&Product_ID=1474
There are alot more options on the components but these two sets have some of the best sound for the bucks!!! I love the Perfects. They sound very nice!!! I have listened to several different sets on the sound boards at the local shops and a set of JL Audio $700 components dont sound as good as the Perfects, to me.
I would also go with a 6.5 inch mid if I was you. This will give you a little better low end and usually a little more output as compared to the 5.25 mid.

Amp
1) Kicker ZX700.5 $245 www.cartronixplus.com
This is a great amp that would be almost a perfect fit for the above installation. Your seperates would see roughly 140 watts and the sub would get roughly 210 watts. This is figuring the load on each channel is 4 ohms. If you like you can drop the sub to 2 ohms and get 420 watts out of it. The other four channels can not be bridges to a 2 ohm load but you can run them in an unbridged mode at 2 ohm and get 85 watts per channel that way. I would recommend bridging the amp and running the seperates at 4 ohms for 140 watts.

2) Kicker ZX 850.4 $280 www.cartronixplus.com
If you want more power for the seperates and roughly the same power to the sub but at a 4 ohm load this is a good choice as well. Although a few bucks more you pick up 35 watts more per channel for your seperates and a whooping 5 watts more for the sub . It still has all the features the 700.5 has well.

Indash
This is all personal preferrence. I like Kenwood when it comes to indashes but that is me.
1) Kenwood KDC-X991 $400 www.cartronixplus.com
The main thing I like about this unit is a built in G-Force meter dont know what you would use it for but hey its got it

2) Kenwood KDC-X891 $220 www.cartronixplus.com
This unit has basically everything the 991 has except the G-force meter and its almost $200 cheaper

Dont forget you still need wires for the amps, speakers, patch cords, etc....

So that gives us:

Pioneer sub $100
Infinity Seps $190
Kicker Amp $280
Kenwood Ind $220
total roughly $790

$10 less than you wanted at max. If you went with the Kicker sub , smaller Kicker amp, and the MB Seperates you would be in at $690 leaving $110 for wire and what nots.

If you wanted to save even more money you could go with a dual amp setup and roughly half the power but it is also about half the cost. If this interests you I would look at the Kicker ZX200.2 and the 200.4 . I would run the 200.4 in a bridged mode on the seperates and the 200.2 bridges on the sub. That would give you 100 watts for the seperates and 200 watts for the sub at roughly $160, so that would be another $85 you could save as compared to the 700.5 amp and $120 compared to the 850.4 .

Hope some of this helps.

[This message has been edited by NeoNot (edited 01-09-2008).]

IP: Logged
crytical point
Member
Posts: 569
From: sanford FL USA
Registered: Feb 2006


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-09-2008 03:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for crytical pointSend a Private Message to crytical pointDirect Link to This Post
"cough cough" over priced no.. it cost less than $700 and if your familiar with the Fiero aftermarket then $700 is easy on the wallet.

Now I will admit it is over kill but it is SOOO worth it and I do plan to upgrade it even further but first I need more power and the poor little CS-130 needs some help so I am looking at a conversion kit to push it even better. You could do almost anything as far as stereo in a fiero except a set of 15's and even then if the driver and passenger are only 5ft tall then its possible. But my stereo when I have it blasting and with the windows closed you can barely hear it over the exhaust but when you open the door it is insane and even louder when you sit inside.
IP: Logged
PaulJK
Member
Posts: 6638
From: Los Angeles
Registered: Oct 2001


Feedback score:    (25)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 237
Rate this member

Report this Post01-09-2008 04:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PaulJKSend a Private Message to PaulJKDirect Link to This Post
if you have an $800 budget, you'll have a hard time getting a true 5 channel (dolby 6.1, 7.1, 8.1) set-up. One of the best systems I ever heard was a factory 7.1 channel system in a Volvo - WOW, The center speaker output makes a NICE difference. Aftermarket, you'll need a decoder box that will produce the center channel output from common music CDs or MP3s - Alpine is the only one I've ever seen and it mates to their DVD head unit - makes sense since 5 channel is normal for movies. Read the small print on equipment specs if you go this route; not all equipment will create the center channel output. expensive, but worth it.

[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 01-09-2008).]

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
NeoNot
Member
Posts: 171
From: Central Missouri
Registered: Aug 2007


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-09-2008 08:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NeoNotSend a Private Message to NeoNotDirect Link to This Post
Here is a quick drawing for the basic layout of the system I was describing above.


You will notice I have a 100 amp breaker in the main power line going to the amp. I am not sure if this is the proper size or not. Based on the rated power of each amp it should be real close. You may need to goto a 150 amp breaker but I think the 100 should work. I would recommend a breaker over a fuse since you can reset them. They cost roughly the same price as a fuse and water proof fuse holder so I dont see the reason not to use them over a fuse. Make sure you install this breaker within 12 inches of the battery. You want it installed well before the fire wall and as close to the battery as possible.

If running the Kicker ZX700.5
I would bridge channels 1& 2 and run the left set of Mid and Tweet.
I would bridge channels 3 & 4 and run the right set of Mid and Tweet

I would set the Highpass crossover for channels 1-4 at 90-100hz.
Channel 5 should be crossedover at the same frequency only as a Low pass, so 90-100hz.
Wire channel 5 to your sub.

If running the Kicker ZX850.4
Wire channel 1 to the left set of Mid and Tweet.
Wire channel 2 to the right set of Mid and Tweet
Set Channel 1 and 2 for Highpass crossover at 90-100hz
Set Channel 3 and 4 for Lowpass crossover at 90-100hz
Bridge Channels 3 and 4 and connect to the sub.

In my previous post of suggested products you should note that the Seperates come with a passive crossover so no additional filtering is needed for the mid or tweets. You attach your amp to the passive crossover and then connect the mid to the passive crossover at is designated location and then the tweeter to the passive crossover at its designated location.

If you are more interested in the dual amps setup let me know and I will see what I can do to draw it up.
IP: Logged



All times are ET (US)

T H I S   I S   A N   A R C H I V E D   T O P I C
  

Contact Us | Back To Main Page

Advertizing on PFF | Fiero Parts Vendors
PFF Merchandise | Fiero Gallery | Ogre's Cave
Real-Time Chat | Fiero Related Auctions on eBay



Copyright (c) 1999, C. Pennock