Hi Guys, newbie here.

Basically to give you guys a bit of background, I am a brit, living in Nottingham but I used to live in Canada, which is were I fell in love with the Fiero.

I have been racing go karts for a while and I am planning on moving into cars next season, originally I was getting an MG Midget to race in classic events, I already own a 67' MG BGT for the road, so it seemed quite logical. However I keep being drawn to getting a fiero, I have spoken to the British Racing Drivers Association and the uk motor sport organisations and have found a number of UK circuit racing series that a fiero is eligible for, so its all looking promising. (also my father loves the fiero so he is happy to help out with the extra running costs over old MG's).

At this point what I really need is any info/advice etc on the best course of action for prepping the car for racing: I am currently looking at a standard 88 GT as the basis; I would like to keep the original engine and displacement. (no objections to superchargers etc though) The Formula libre series are open to pretty much most modifications so the car would get, bigger brakes, rose jointed throughout, full weld in cage and the usual safety stuff. Beyond this I am not sure where to go. I have seen various pictures of the original racers and if anyone has any info on these it would be much appreciated.

Apologies for the horrendously long first post.

Mr Flaky

It sounds like you're going to have fun no matter what you do. My only advice is that the '88 Fiero GT is heavier than it's notchback brother, the Formula edition. The GT is also slightly worse aerodynamicly, despite what it looks like. Unless you're deeply in love with the GT body, it would be a good idea to look at the Formula.







Sorry whoever owns these cars, but I needed some beautiful Formula editions and these were the first I could find.


This suggestion may or may not be driven by my adoration for the Formula edition Fiero

Formula Libre? I wish there was a similar racing series here. Under SCCA road racing club rules, no changes to engine type, placement, valves, suspension, brake disc size, etc etc. If those things are changed, the car winds up in the sports-racer category with Lolas, Rileys, Swifts, Zinks, etc, depending on the engine size. The only place a non production engine can be run is in autocross, where the rules say any GM derived V-6 up to 4.3L can be run.

I have to agree, the GT bodywork is nice, but all the "aero" cladding, fastback, longer decklid, etc doesn't help aerodynamics and weighs ( I think, taking in the weight difference between a fully optioned 88 Formula, and a GT with the same trans, apples to apples ) between 50 and 75 lbs more. The only advantage to using GT bodywork is if you were allowed put a fastback plexiglass window in the back, then it would be aerodymanically superior, but only on the straights.

I assume that they have different classes for different engines? That you'll check out the classes to see what engine/chassis combination the Fiero might be the most competitive with? It's more fun to go 150 MPH than 125 MPH, but not if you lose.

Having raced a Datsun long, long long ago, my observation is that the Fiero chassis is fat and weak in certain places ( for racing, not for the street ). I've read that it weighs 600 Lbs, give or take of which I think 300 lbs is fat. It is weak in the area just under the base of the windshield, the cowl area, and in reinforcement for the rear struts. Google 8 shark racing to see what they've done. They have a 1300 lb skate.
Give it a diet. Cut off anything unecessary, and acid dip the rest and put in a good roll cage. Reinforce the weak areas.
Suspension: The 88 front bearings will not hold up. I would use corvette bearings in the front, maybe even design a new front crossmember/suspension incorporating heavier bearings with coilovers and design in adjustability. Same in the rear. The front crossmember and the rear subframe are Heavy. Maybe aluminum? or chrome-moly? I could go on, but the rest would depend on the rules.

If it is really wide open, try to find the rare Fiero IMSA build book from the 80's. Shows how to build a Fiero silouette racer.
Good Luck

Thanks for the info, i am off onto the net to see if i can find that build book you where talking about.

I am popping over to Brands Hatch to watch a formula libre round next weekend and will have a chat with the organisers and competitors to get a feel of the best class. The joy is that the different classes are all so open, you can do as much or as little mods as you want, eerything from golfs to old DTM cars racing.

I will have a sit down with the race shop i will be using and have a look see at the specs and techincal drawings of the fiero's.

cheers

Dingman Bros IMSA Fiero at Daytona 2006

[This message has been edited by FierociousGT (edited 04-01-2007).]

While the "slight" differences the Formula and GT mentioned above are accurate, it isn't going to matter in "Road Course" racing. It's not like you're going to be entering the car in a Daytona 500 type of event.

Provided you find a decent Fiero for the project, I would think the main tasks should be focused on suspension setup, wheels/tires, brakes, and gear ratios. Then comes what I'll car "Driver Education", where you practice a great deal, learning to get the most out of the car on any given track.

What's this about the Formula having better aerodynamics? That's the first I've heard of it. I've always heard the aero body has a lower Cd than any of the coupe bodies. Plus, the design of the coupe nose looks like it would generate more lift at speed than the aero nose. Anyone have more info on that?

quote Originally posted by Formula88: What's this about the Formula having better aerodynamics? That's the first I've heard of it. I've always heard the aero body has a lower Cd than any of the coupe bodies. Plus, the design of the coupe nose looks like it would generate more lift at speed than the aero nose. Anyone have more info on that?

If thats the case then why would Pontiac have raced the fastback IMSA body?

I have run 5 races in my 88 Formula and can offer the following advice.

The stock 2.8 has been reliable for some racers. I have scrapped 3 of them and have the 4th in the machine shop right now getting a total balance, overbore, line bore etc. Power wise they are a mid pack car in ITA (Improved Touring A class)

Brakes are excellant as far as I have not had any problems with them fading even with the rotors turning a pretty shade of blue.
I run KFP Purple pads on the front ($150 to $200 a pair) and stock pads on the back.

My cage is made by Kirk racing and has extra door bars added on both sides. I am considering adding two through the rear window bars to tie in the rear strut towers and eliminate the rear firewall stubs. It is not an easy or graceful car to get in or out of and the seating position is odd with the roll cage pretty much hitting your helmet on the left roof bar. With the gas tank hump so big, there is very little side to side adjustment of the seat (obviously solid race seats, not street seats.) .

Stability wise the car is fun to drive, however it suffers the same problem as any mid engine car. It has a very low polar moment of inertia. In simple terms that means if you lose it, it is gone before you can correct it. I am getting comfortable with mine at the limit (drifting through a turn at 70MPH gets your attention as you have to steer with the throttle and the wheel) .

Long term I doubt I will be running this car much longer. It was a fun beginners race car (for an experienced driver) but my next car will be more competitive with more power. If your association allows more engine modifications it will probably fare better than the restricted rules I run with.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: What's this about the Formula having better aerodynamics? That's the first I've heard of it. I've always heard the aero body has a lower Cd than any of the coupe bodies. Plus, the design of the coupe nose looks like it would generate more lift at speed than the aero nose. Anyone have more info on that?

Believe this was discussed a couple years back on the forum, where printed comparisons (coupe with aero package/GT nose) was either one or two hundreds better in coefficient of drag than the GT. Nothing to get excited about, unless your running full out speed for a long time.

quote Originally posted by California Kid: Believe this was discussed a couple years back on the forum, where printed comparisons (coupe with aero package/GT nose) was either one or two hundreds better in coefficient of drag than the GT. Nothing to get excited about, unless your running full out speed for a long time.

Well the aero nose is the big difference. I thought he was saying the Formula (i.e. coupe) was more aerodynamic than the GT. I thought the coupe nose had a higher, not lower, Cd.

I was actually referring to the rear. The back of the Fiero creates a ton of strange air currents over the decklid. The fastback body, despite Looking like it would do better in that regard, seems to be even worse for it.
A small difference, I realize.

Both the Coupe and GT are designed to have negative air pressure at the forward part of the rear deck lid, this assist's pulling hot air from the engine compartment. It also results in creating "dirty air" over the back area of the car, reward of the back window. The Fastback style GT with it's side windows creates just a little more negative pressure than the Coupe, meaning a little more "backwash" (moving forward over the rear decklid) air flow. These were the primary reasons for development of the "Wing" as most call it, it's really a rear spoiler to manage backwash air, which improved the CD, and reduced rear end lift.

IMSA Race Cars took this one step further, by further developing spoilers in the wind tunnel for both the Coupe and GT which you'll see on any Coupe or GT that was raced. If you look at these spoiler carefully, you should notice they are different in design, to manage the differences in backwash airflow between the two body styles. The main goal they were after was reducing rear end lift created by the "dirty negative pressure air zone", this also resulted in lower the CD as it minimized some of the dirty air getting into the air stream going over the roof line.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 04-01-2007).]

A similar discussion is going on in the tech forums. See:
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/081465.html

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FierOmar

quote Originally posted by FierOmar: Check it out and let us know how it compares to SCCA ITA rules.

The SCCA seems to have a much simpler approach, but also more limitations. My car would have to be 178# (2778 vs 2600) heavier in NASA and would get a whole lot of points added for lots of odd items.

My quick and dirty assessment is that NASA lets you build a car the way you want to and then classes it. SCCA says you can run in any class you want, but you have to follow the rules for your body in that class. Front engine V8 Fiero's are even allowed in the SCCA if you want to go through the trouble of doing it.

I need to get my car sorted out better before I stray away from people I know and who know me.

I disagree with the Fiero out handling a Corvette, but that is a differant debate.

quote Originally posted by SCCAFiero: I disagree with the Fiero out handling a Corvette, but that is a differant debate.

Not to take anything away from the Corvette; they're a fine car. But on the road race tracks, the Fiero gets around the course just a little faster. The Vette comes on strong on the straights but fades away in the corners. I thought it was a fluke the first time I saw it, but I've seen it several times since. Even the mighty Z06 can't outhandle a Fiero on road tracks.

quote Originally posted by SCCAFiero: The SCCA seems to have a much simpler approach, but also more limitations. My car would have to be 178# (2778 vs 2600) heavier in NASA and would get a whole lot of points added for lots of odd items. My quick and dirty assessment is that NASA lets you build a car the way you want to and then classes it. SCCA says you can run in any class you want, but you have to follow the rules for your body in that class. Front engine V8 Fiero's are even allowed in the SCCA if you want to go through the trouble of doing it. I need to get my car sorted out better before I stray away from people I know and who know me. I disagree with the Fiero out handling a Corvette, but that is a differant debate.

Yeah... I like the concept on NASA's PT ("run what you brung") rules. However, there are several areas that I do no agree with. For example, rear engine and mid engine cars will usually use wider tires on the resr wheels whereas fwd cars will generslly use the same size. NASA adds points for wider than stock tires, and heres the rub; even if only the rear tires are increased in width, the same points are added as would be added for a similar increase on all four wheels (i.e. a Suburu STI awd). Another concern is the base class weights. Some of the cars are just plain wrong. For example, I race a DOHC Neon in both Spec Neon and PT-F. in Spec Neon NASA's rules add 50 lbs. to the DOHC to equalize the two cars (irrespective of whether the car is a 2 door or a 4 door). However, in the PT rules, the DOHC is required to carry 2507, or an additional 133 lbs.

The Fiero presents a couple unique problems for the PT classes. First, the 84-87 is given the same base class as the 88 despite the fact that the 88 is generally considered to have superior handling. Second, although somewhat unclear, swapping a 3.4 V6 in place of a stock 2.8 is required to carry more weight than it would if swapped in place of an existing 4 cylinder.

BTW, I always though that the weight specified in the ITA rules was for the car only. NASA's weight for base classes includes the weight of the driver.

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FierOmar

thanks for all the info guys, the job for this week is to figure out how much cash i am gonna have to put into the project and what this will get me.

Initially it looks like it will be a case of do the essentials first, if i get the fiero, i.e. brakes, suspension, cage, safety mods etc. I will have to talk to a few people as the depth of knowledge about fiero's over in the UK is nowhere near as good as the other side of the pond. Sourcing cages, brakes, shocks isn't an issue but getting the work done to the suspension, geometry etc might be tricky, so be prepared to be asked a load of questions!

at this point it is highly likely that the engine will be the lsst thing i get done, due to the expense.

cheers

Fieromar, I noticed the tire and weight issues right away and really lost interest right there. The SCCA lowered the Fiero weight to 2600 # a year ago and every bit helps.

SCCA weight is "as the car comes off the track" with driver and whatever remaining fuel is on board. My other driver is a bit heavier than me so I start and he finishes the enduros over an hour long. With me in it I have to have more gas at the end of the race to be legal than he does. We will empty the tank to the point it will start to cut out in about 1 hour of racing.

My impression of the NASA rules were, if I built a really fast car, they would penalize me to the point it would no longer be a sure winner. That is almost the same thing as making a set of rules keeping similiar cars competitve and sticking to them. I know a lot of people have issues with the SCCA rule book and their enforcement, I only have minor issues like why I need to keep the heater core in the car.

Anyone interested in racing needs to realize that racing requires a racing license, not just building a car and showing up. With the SCCA that means 2 schools that can be a challenge as most regions only run 1 school a year. You do not just show up and race like you would for a rally or autocross. The risks (and rewards) of club racing are far more significant than most other forms of non professional racing. I would recommend that anyone who has any interest in racing, to rent a car for a school and see if they can do it or even like it. According to the guy I rented a car from, he has had a few people take 1 or 2 laps on school days and never got back in again.

quote Originally posted by Mr Flaky: Hi Guys, newbie here. Basically to give you guys a bit of background, I am a brit, living in Nottingham but I used to live in Canada, which is were I fell in love with the Fiero. I have been racing go karts for a while and I am planning on moving into cars next season, originally I was getting an MG Midget to race in classic events, I already own a 67' MG BGT for the road, so it seemed quite logical. However I keep being drawn to getting a fiero, I have spoken to the British Racing Drivers Association and the uk motor sport organisations and have found a number of UK circuit racing series that a fiero is eligible for, so its all looking promising. (also my father loves the fiero so he is happy to help out with the extra running costs over old MG's). At this point what I really need is any info/advice etc on the best course of action for prepping the car for racing: I am currently looking at a standard 88 GT as the basis; I would like to keep the original engine and displacement. (no objections to superchargers etc though) The Formula libre series are open to pretty much most modifications so the car would get, bigger brakes, rose jointed throughout, full weld in cage and the usual safety stuff. Beyond this I am not sure where to go. I have seen various pictures of the original racers and if anyone has any info on these it would be much appreciated. Apologies for the horrendously long first post. Mr Flaky

Where abouts in Canada were you living?

I lived 1995 - 1998 in Montreal, then went back to the UK to do my degree, after which i came back and spent a year in Vancouver/Whistler.