Finally took car to dyno with the new setup. Clutch still slips when cold but once hot it seems to pull ok (still need to check when shifting hard) so all went well. Latest mods are here: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/077431.html Last dyno it did 236hp/342tq and now 304hp/366tq both at the wheels (SAE). So that's a 68hp/24tq gain. Not bad for a TPI I think. I adjusted fuel and timing at the session but there were no major gains from initial (6hp/9tq). Next thing I guess may be long tube headers and CAI I'm very happy with it because it was what I was looking for. Below are the pics of old and new dynos and here are some video links of the pull

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiBHBI1wQT0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mxubvAu2SA



New dyno;


Old dyno;


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Red: TPI V8 + 6-Speed Yellow: Nitrous 3.4 + 4 speed Auto
http://pbfieros.tripod.com

[This message has been edited by Alex4mula (edited 03-16-2007).]

Can I touch your turd?



I guess you're probably about ~340hp @ atc?

Also, for the record:

- 52mm TB
- Ported upper plenum )by Corvette Plenums)
- AS&M big runners
- Edelbrock base
- AFR new Eliminator 180cc heads

Doesn't exactly count as a "stock" TPI.

Compare to certain other people who IIRC have stock heads and supposedly more horsepower than you!

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 03-16-2007).]

AWSOME ! Where is the TPI love now . So any guest-a-mates at crank HP ?

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HARDCORE SBC CRONIE AND PROUD OF IT ! GOT TQ ?

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Doesn't exactly count as a "stock" TPI. Compare to certain other people who IIRC have stock heads and supposedly more horsepower than you!

I never said "stock" above, did I?

Well done sir!

Just out of curiosity, who did your tune?

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Well done sir! Just out of curiosity, who did your tune?

Thanks. I did. This is my stock Fiero V6 harness/165-ECM speed density setup.

2 questions... what tranny are you running? i plan on using a 4t60.... and will come tune my swap for me??

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quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: Thanks. I did. This is my stock Fiero V6 harness/165-ECM speed density setup.

That's gotta be a feat.. I didn't know the fiero system was documented well enough to be tuned? I would have thought for sure you were running a 7730

I'm using the G6 6 speed. Research for this setup didn't took long. All info is at thirdgen.org. The actual setup is very easy for any TPI engine because they use exactly the same sensors as the Fiero and the ECM connector is the same. I posted it here several times. You use your stock V6 harness, add two injector wires, extend couple sensors, change 3-4 pins at the ECM connector, plug a 165 (MAF) ECM and run $5D speed density code and you are done. Stock code will run any stock TPI (adjusting just the injector constant for a 350). Change cam or other things then get into the tunning thing. Or just play to optimize it.

Congrats!
The engine looks great as well.

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Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.
ZZ4 Powered !!

Nice pull!

Don't you know you can't get more than 200 RWHP out of any TPI!!! I call
(kidding)

Really awesome numbers, there. With that torque curve, that car must feel like a BEAST around town!
You can definitely see the limitations of TPI on your A/F chart - but you're getting some really great power out of it, too.

Are you running oversize TPI runners?

Awesome! Sounds amazing.

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88 Coupe: Modded 4.9L V8 5 speed
84 Coupe: 4 cyl 4 speed
01 BMW 525i
www.geocities.com/fast88fiero

The engine is waking up !

Did you monitor your fuel pressure readings during the dyno run ?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
But whoever do you mean ryan? cough*look up*cough

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Compare to certain other people who IIRC have stock heads and supposedly more horsepower than you!

[This message has been edited by p8ntman442 (edited 03-17-2007).]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thats funny right there

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HARDCORE SBC CRONIE AND PROUD OF IT ! GOT TQ ?

Thanks for posting the graphs. We need more proven dyno runs for ALL swaps on here. Good numbers too.

Thanks all Formula88; I am using AS&R big tube runners and Edelbrock base.

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: Thanks all Formula88; I am using AS&R big tube runners and Edelbrock base.

Awesome!

Have you considered any siamesed runners? It does change the look of the engine, but it should give a shorter effective runner length which might help keep the torque up in the 4000 - 6000 rpm range. If you can slow the torque drop off a bit, you should pick up a few ponies up top.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: might help keep the torque up in the 4000 - 6000 rpm range. If you can slow the torque drop off a bit, you should pick up a few ponies up top.

That's the reason I asked the question about monitoring the fuel pressure, which tends to drop off in that rpm range, dyno runs have shown going from 42psi to 50psi will gain you 20hp, and 58 lbs of torque. That's just one small piece of getting the most out of a TPI setup.

That may be true with people with stock cars who can't tune to the engine fuel needs. The right way to do it is to adjust your fuel at the PROM and not at fuel rail pressure. Fuel pressure in this is fine all the way to the top. I'm running 46 PSI with my tune. Believe me, nothing to gain with that on this engine. Siamese shorter runners will move torque peak higher and may make a little more top end (at expense of some low end torque) but with a better exhaust. With these little CC90 headers it won't happen. Now if I could fit some nice bigger diameter long tubes then I could get bigger gains. Go see at thirdgen. Those guys have done almost everything to these TPIs and know what works and what not. Most 350 TPIs with many mods don't go higher than 330-340rwhp unless they do extreme porting (extrude hone high flow intakes) or use 383s-400s blocks.

[This message has been edited by Alex4mula (edited 03-18-2007).]

Thanks for the clarification. I didn't know that.

Although, moving the torque band up a bit might make your tires last longer.

Increasing your fuel pressure won't do anything.

Assuming you have an o2 sensor and are running in closed loop, the engine will see it's injecting too much fuel, and pull back the fuel..... across the board - from idle to 5000+

At best it would last one dyno run before the ECM corrected itself.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Increasing your fuel pressure won't do anything. Assuming you have an o2 sensor and are running in closed loop, the engine will see it's injecting too much fuel, and pull back the fuel..... across the board - from idle to 5000+ At best it would last one dyno run before the ECM corrected itself.

That's true on close loop as you said. But at WOT our ECMs goes into open loop which means they fuel the engine based on the values on the fuel table (volumetric efficiency vs MAP vs RPM). Based on those numbers the injectors are opened X amount of time. Those values are programmed for a particular injector size and fuel pressure. If you put bigger injectors or increase fuel pressure then more fuel will pass on the same X amount of time the ECM opens the injector.
Some people that mod the car do the cheap way and increase pressure to get more fuel at WOT and thus maybe more power (if mod needs more fuel). Others just get a new PROM with the tables changed (tuned) to the mod.

oops - forgot - if the BLMs are below 128, it will use 128 as the multiplier at WOT. If the BLMs are above 128, it will use that number as the multiplier at WOT.

So yes it will increase the fueling in power enrichment.

But the reverse is not true - reducing your fuel pressure will not reduce fueling in PE. The ECM will raise the BLMs and multiply the fuel by that ratio of BLM/128.

Of course, this assumes you start with a BLM of 128. If you start at 134, increasing the fuel pressure will not do anything until the BLM goes neutral at 128.

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: That's true on close loop as you said. But at WOT our ECMs goes into open loop which means they fuel the engine based on the values on the fuel table (volumetric efficiency vs MAP vs RPM). Based on those numbers the injectors are opened X amount of time. Those values are programmed for a particular injector size and fuel pressure. If you put bigger injectors or increase fuel pressure then more fuel will pass on the same X amount of time the ECM opens the injector. Some people that mod the car do the cheap way and increase pressure to get more fuel at WOT and thus maybe more power (if mod needs more fuel). Others just get a new PROM with the tables changed (tuned) to the mod.

It's also a cheaper way to get more fuel flow rather than going with larger injectors. Not ideal, but a good tuning tool to see the result of the extra fuel flow before spending the money on injectors, etc.

Impressive dyno numbers, Alex. Glad to hear you are getting it dialed in. Those long tube headers you are planning on installing should broaden your power range by quite a bit.

Concerning fuel pressures and injector sizing; here are some formulas that can be used to calculate what size injectors you should be using on a particular engine (according to crank HP)...

HP / Number of Injectors x BSFC / Duty Cycle = Injector size required

Injector Size x Duty Cycle / BSFC x Number of Injectors = HP supported

BSFC = Brake Specific Fuel Consumption. This is the amount of fuel the engine consumes to make 1 HP. Most naturally asperated engines have a BSFC factor of 0.50. Most Supercharged or Turbocharged engines have a BSFC factor of 0.65.

Duty Cycle = The maximum sustained "ON-TIME" of the Injector. The typical maximum injector ON-TIME sustainable in a modern EFI engine is 80%. For the above formulas, use 0.80 for the duty cycle.

Of course you can drive the injectors at more than an 80% D/C, but then the ECM begins to lose control over the injectors because they can go "Static", or stay wide-open. The point at which this occurs depends on the design of the injector and the weight of it's moving parts (ex: the pintle).

You can also increase the fuel pressure to increase the flow rate of your injectors. But keep in mind it takes 4 times the pressure to double the flow thru a given oriface. And most PFI high-impedence injectors don't have enough power to open at much higher pressures than stock (the result = stuck closed). Again, this depends on the design of the injector. The forumulas for pressure vs. flow are as follows:

New Pressure = Old Pressure x (new flow / old flow) squared

New Flow = Old Flow x the square root of (new pressure / old pressure)


-ryan


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power corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Custom Computer Tuning | Engine Conversions | Turbocharging | www.gmtuners.com

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 03-19-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Impressive dyno numbers, Alex. Glad to hear you are getting it dialed in. Those long tube headers you are planning on installing should broaden your power range by quite a bit. ... -ryan

Thanks. Just want to clarify that I'm not really planning on installing long tube headers. I would love to because I know the shorty 1 1/2" are preventing some gains but it would be a big project and investment (and loosing the trunk). The reason I mentioned it is becasue if this engine would be in a car like a Camaro then it could really benefit from that. But we drive Fieros and Fieros we do love

Cool, and great numbers - especially the TORQUE! I need some tuning on my TPI "turd". Thanks for posting!

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula:

I've seen, (and more importantly heard) this motor and if it's a turd, then give me turd soup for dinner.

Impressive. Damned impressive.

You've come a long way with your Formula since the 3.4 went in.

Major props!

Alex4mula- PM sent to you.