Back in March, I bought one of RockCrawl's chip for the Caddy 4.9. I installed it with no problems (for those who know me, that was no mean task) . It "felt" better/faster but everytime I get in my car it feels that way. So when Jeremy at the Fiero Factory said he was going to put together a "Dyno Run" at the local dyno shop in Huntsville, I said this might be the time to see if the chip actually made any difference. Well, here are the results:

RockCrawl's chip Max Power = 177.99 hp Max Torque = 266.73 ft. lbs
Factory chip Max Power = 172.30 hp Max Torque = 256.00 ft. lbs

When I installed factory chip, I just unplugged connections to ECM, replaced chip & drove car for about 5 minutes. Don't know if that was enough for the factory chip to "learn" itself.
Getting 5.5 more hp, 10 ft. lbs more torque and a little over 1.8 miles more to the gallon of gas was money well spent in my opinion. Many thanks to Jon, I had my chip within 4 days after I ordered it.
For results of all Fiero's that took part, go to http://www.etrackmasters.com/
Click on Dyno Charts & scroll down.

[This message has been edited by flyntus (edited 05-19-2004).]

Thanks for sharing your results. Your data will be useful to a lot of people.

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Red 88 GT T-Top 3800 INTERCOOLED SUPERCHARGED
White 88 GT Stock
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History of Skitimes Car

Not to start a controversy on this subject but something seems very odd with your set up and please explain if you can
The 4.9 is rated @ 200hp with almost 300 ft pound of torque in a full size car and you are putting out those numbers something just dosen't add up,the original 2.8 is about 135hp so what gain have you made for all that work to make a few hp because you power output went down.

[This message has been edited by Master Tuner Akimoto (edited 05-19-2004).]

i believe the numbers he posted are Rear wheel HP and Torque, not Flywheel HP and Torque. That is why the numbers are lower. Ill bet the 2.8 Rear wheel num,bers are more like 119 HP and 145 torque

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-Monkey

9 Fieros....help

quote Originally posted by Master Tuner Akimoto: Not to start a controversy on this subject but something seems very odd with your set up and please explain if you can The 4.9 is rated @ 200hp with almost 300 ft pound of torque in a full size car and you are putting out those numbers something just dosen't add up,the original 2.8 is about 135hp so what gain have you made for all that work to make a few hp because you power output went down.

The difference is wheel horsepower vs. flywheel horsepower. The dyno above shows 172.30 hp with the factory chip at the wheels. Add in roughly 18% for transaxle loss and you get 203.3hp at the flywheel. (or 210.02 hp with Rockcrawl's chip.)
The stock Fiero 2.8L generally gets about 114.8hp at the rear wheels.

As for this thread, That's a good gain for just fine tuning the fuel/timing.

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Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 05-19-2004).]

I'm just curious what the rev limiter is with rockcrawls chip? 4700? is it moved from stock?

No rev limiter with rockcrawl's chip

then what keeps the engine from blowing up? I'm curious because I took it out racing last night and my scantool said over 5000 a couple times. I don't want to blow it.

your common sense....

Dragon1/Brian

quote Originally posted by Dragon1: your common sense.... Dragon1/Brian

That's why rev limiters were invented.

I think I have a limiter. It could hear it going whir whir whir at the top when I missed a shift

So Jon (if your reading) can you simply move the rev limiter up for us boneheads? Sayyyy, 6500 RPM?

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John DuRette
Black 85 SE, undergoing work as we speak!
Battery re-located up front using a V8 Archie box
Remote Start/Window Rollup/Lock/Trunk Release/Alarm
White Gauge Faces w/120 MPH Speedometer Conversion
Hidden Antenna
Urethane Suspension Bushings
Sequential Tallights
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Oreif's painted door tabs and horn button
Shortened Automatic Shifter w/Beretta shiftknob
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H4 Headlight Conversion - done right!
LED Third Brake Light/Custom Headliner
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Braided Steel Brake Hoses
Lowered an inch
Getting a GT body

Still not on the road, and another Fiero on the horizon!

quote Originally posted by FieroMonkey: i believe the numbers he posted are Rear wheel HP and Torque, not Flywheel HP and Torque. That is why the numbers are lower. Ill bet the 2.8 Rear wheel num,bers are more like 119 HP and 145 torque

All the dyno numbers were measured at the rear wheels.
To contrast, I believe most of the 2.8s were running around 110. My 3.4 only ran 115 through an automatic tranny.

Gary's was the strongest 4.9 there. It actually looked like it wanted to jump off the rollers.
Even had more stones than another 4.9 that was equipped with an Allante intake.
To be fair, Gary's was also the only 4.9 with a manual tranny, IIRC.

Rockcrawl can put the rev limiter to whatever you want. Ours was set to 5800 rpm and we have hit it a few times, so now we bumped it up to 6000 with the new mods.

Pete

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If you look at his dyno chart you'll see that he's making over 260 ft/lbs of torque from just off idle to about 3500 rpm. He stays above 200 ft/lbs of torque until 4500 rpm.

Now compare that to my 3.4L HT crate engine with headers and a few other bolt on's. The most torque I had was 191 ft/lbs at 3500 rpm and it was all downhill from there. A quick comparison.

code:

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              3.4L                               4.9L
 RPM      Tq         Hp                Tq          Hp       Tq+        HP+
3500       191     127.5               253        171    +32%     +34%
4000       176     134.5               225        170    +28%     +26%
4500       156     133.8               205        175    +31%     +31%
5000       124     118.5               165        155    +33%     +31%

---

Not to mention the fact that it's pulling at 250+ ft/lbs of torque from less than 1750 rpm.

That's a significant gain in my book. Before you think I have a weak 3.4, it pulls pretty much like every other 3.4L that I've seen dyno'd with the Fiero intake so it's in the ballpark with the rest and much stronger than a 2.8L.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Master Tuner Akimoto: Not to start a controversy on this subject but something seems very odd with your set up and please explain if you can The 4.9 is rated @ 200hp with almost 300 ft pound of torque in a full size car and you are putting out those numbers something just dosen't add up,the original 2.8 is about 135hp so what gain have you made for all that work to make a few hp because you power output went down.

Here's a shot of Gary's car on the dyno.

Bill

I like the bladed rims look too!

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85 SE

quote Originally posted by f-stop: Here's a shot of Gary's car on the dyno. Bill

Thanks for the photo of my car.

quote then what keeps the engine from blowing up? I'm curious because I took it out racing last night and my scantool said over 5000 a couple times. I don't want to blow it.

The stock RPM limiter is 5300. I've looked at over 20 different stock 4.9 chips, they are all 5300. A stock Deville will 1-2 shift at 5200-5300 rpm at WOT, yet I still hear people say that the engine has a 4000 or 4500 rpm redline. That's BS and I'm tired of hearing and reading it.

I never change the RPM limit for an automatic unless someone specifcly asks for it. Unless the engine is modded (and the shift points are altered) there is no need to rev it higher than 5300 unless you want to make the car slower. For the manual swaps I recommend a 6000 RPM limit and some new valve springs.

Jon

thanks for the info rockcrawl, i was always told (from this forum) that the 4.9L was 4800 RPM redline, so if its 5300 RPM on the 1-2 shift, im guessing its actually 5500 Redline?

is there any way to make more power above 4500 RPM with the 4.9L or 4.5L? or do cam upgrades and such not really help it that much, or are they a big upgrade for the 4.x series pushrod motors?

im curious because i found a 100k mile 4.5L from a 90 seville (i think seville) with 4.5L and 4 speed auto, and i was curious about its redline.

also what are the HP specs on the 4.5L compared to the 4.9L so i can get my facts straight?

is the 90 caddy the one with the 4t60 (not electric shift)?

matthew

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Gary's was the strongest 4.9 there. It actually looked like it wanted to jump off the rollers. Even had more stones than another 4.9 that was equipped with an Allante intake. To be fair, Gary's was also the only 4.9 with a manual tranny, IIRC.

Manual tranmissions, particularly transverse ones, have much less parasitic loss than automatics. That's why he put down more power. Who had the Allante intake? How much better did he run than the cars with standard intake manifolds?

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'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

quote Originally posted by Master Tuner Akimoto: Not to start a controversy on this subject but something seems very odd with your set up and please explain if you can The 4.9 is rated @ 200hp with almost 300 ft pound of torque in a full size car and you are putting out those numbers something just dosen't add up,the original 2.8 is about 135hp so what gain have you made for all that work to make a few hp because you power output went down.

Wheel Horse Power not crank HP.

His numbers seem ok to me.

[This message has been edited by Lex (edited 07-07-2004).]

The ASG 5.0 is rated 300HP I believe (but then I believe a lot of things). Pricey, but I would think you could duplicate the changes cheaper.

http://www.angelfire.com/stars/mycaddy/asg.htm

Terry

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 07-07-2004).]

Gary also has the 4.10 geared 4-speed. That helps.

Tell me more about said Alante intake... Power gains? I'm looking at a new motor now that might have problems with the throttle body...

quote im guessing its actually 5500 Redline?

I don't know what the redline is, I guess it depends how you define redline. It could be the point where the engine stops making power, or the point where it will fly apart if it goes any faster, or somewhere in between. The maximum allowable sustained RPM redline would be different than the absolute maximum allowable RPM redline. Redline is a pretty broad term. A stock 4.9 is electronicly limited to 5300 rpm, so I guess you could say that's the "redline" that GM put on it. Since Caddies don't have tachs with red lines, that's probably the best answer.

Reving a stock 4.9 above 5300 RPM is probably asking for trouble. If you're lucky the valves will float, the engine will stop making power, the RPMs won't climb, you'll realize something is wrong and let off the throttle. If you continue you'll likely bend a pushrod or break a rocker arm rail, I've done both on several occasions on stock and modded engines. If you insist on doing it often you will ruin the cam and lifters, maybe even smack an exhaust valve with a piston.

With some relatively minor mods and the limiter removed, the 4.9 will continue to make power right up to at least 6000 RPM and still be reliable, that's already been proven. Take a look at the ASG info site that TK posted. They haven't done anything spectacular to get 290 hp @ 6000 rpm. It's the same basic stuff you'd do to a SBC to squeeze more power out of it without buying new heads. They don't say anything about camshaft or valve springs, but I assure you they are not making 290 hp @ 6000 RPM with a stock cam and springs.

There will be a point where the money invested is not worth the outcome, and that point will be different for everyone. When I look at the avantages and disadvantages of the 4.9 vs other swaps, I put a 275-300 hp limit on the 4.9. Anything beyond that and the cost becomes too prohibitive.

Jon

quote Originally posted by rockcrawl: I don't know what the redline is, I guess it depends how you define redline. It could be the point where the engine stops making power, or the point where it will fly apart if it goes any faster, or somewhere in between. The maximum allowable sustained RPM redline would be different than the absolute maximum allowable RPM redline. Redline is a pretty broad term. A stock 4.9 is electronicly limited to 5300 rpm, so I guess you could say that's the "redline" that GM put on it. Since Caddies don't have tachs with red lines, that's probably the best answer. Reving a stock 4.9 above 5300 RPM is probably asking for trouble. If you're lucky the valves will float, the engine will stop making power, the RPMs won't climb, you'll realize something is wrong and let off the throttle. If you continue you'll likely bend a pushrod or break a rocker arm rail, I've done both on several occasions on stock and modded engines. If you insist on doing it often you will ruin the cam and lifters, maybe even smack an exhaust valve with a piston. With some relatively minor mods and the limiter removed, the 4.9 will continue to make power right up to at least 6000 RPM and still be reliable, that's already been proven. Take a look at the ASG info site that TK posted. They haven't done anything spectacular to get 290 hp @ 6000 rpm. It's the same basic stuff you'd do to a SBC to squeeze more power out of it without buying new heads. They don't say anything about camshaft or valve springs, but I assure you they are not making 290 hp @ 6000 RPM with a stock cam and springs. There will be a point where the money invested is not worth the outcome, and that point will be different for everyone. When I look at the avantages and disadvantages of the 4.9 vs other swaps, I put a 275-300 hp limit on the 4.9. Anything beyond that and the cost becomes too prohibitive. Jon

So then, what is the HP/Torque specs on the 1990 4.5L and the 1991 4.9L? what are the major differences between the two besides bore/stroke? is compression different? 4.5L weaker?

just curious, i wanna get my facts straight.

Oh and do you know if the 1990 4.5L used a 4t60 or 4t60E? if it uses the non-overdrive i may have to pull the tranny anyway to put in my 85GT automatic.

matthew

Note to self: when I finally get around to putting the 4.9 in, I MUST get one of rockcrawl's chips....

Ed

1990 4.5 was a one year only engine. 180 hp @ 4000 rpm, 245 lb ft @ 3000 rpm. 9.5:1 CR. The crank, rods, pistons, and block are specific to 1990. The majority of the rest is the same as a 4.9. They did use a 4T60 in '90. 1991, the 4.9 got a new ballanced crank with a longer stroke, shorter rods, clearanced block, redesigned pistons for less noise (they are still noisey), new oil pump, air pump eliminated, and 4T60E trans. The fuel injection system is the same with a few exceptions, the injectors are different and the programming is different, though they use the same ECM. Power is 200 hp @ 4100 rpm, 275 lb ft @3000 rpm, 9.5:1 CR. The 4.9 remained basicly unchanged until it was replaced by the Northstar starting in 1994.

quote Originally posted by edhering: Note to self: when I finally get around to putting the 4.9 in, I MUST get one of rockcrawl's chips.... Ed

DITTO, Rockcrawl is a 4.9 Genius

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1988 GT (Firebird Interior),1988 Coupe (Daily Driver), 1985 SE (Project Car), 1985 Coupe (parts car), Firebird Interior Installation Website

quote Originally posted by edhering: Note to self: when I finally get around to putting the 4.9 in, I MUST get one of rockcrawl's chips.... Ed

Good luck getting a response if you ask for a chip. I've tried on many occassions to contact him without response.. whether his email addresses are no active and he doesn't read pm's I have no idea. But I ended up going another route when all was said and done.

quote Originally posted by Danno88GT5Spd: Good luck getting a response if you ask for a chip. I've tried on many occassions to contact him without response.. whether his email addresses are no active and he doesn't read pm's I have no idea. But I ended up going another route when all was said and done.

Keep in mind he's a busy man, also it appears there a re a few copies of his web site out there (Maybe older ones) fiero addiction is his site and I used the email address for him there and he responded the same day.

quote Originally posted by Danno88GT5Spd: Good luck getting a response if you ask for a chip. I've tried on many occassions to contact him without response.. whether his email addresses are no active and he doesn't read pm's I have no idea. But I ended up going another route when all was said and done.

I have always received a response within a day or two. Jon is by far one of the top experts in the field. I am glad to say i have a Fiero Addiction chip running my 4.9.

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The rebirth of 72vinman

quote Originally posted by TK: The ASG 5.0 is rated 300HP I believe (but then I believe a lot of things). Pricey, but I would think you could duplicate the changes cheaper. http://www.angelfire.com/stars/mycaddy/asg.htm Terry

The ASG is ADVERTISED at 300hp... has anyone ever seen or dyno'd one of these engines? I haven't actually ever heard of anyone stepping up the major bucks they are asking for one of them... doesn't make sense to me either. The big bang for the buck on the 4.9 is the low end torque in stock form...if your adding extra strength or mods yourself for experimental pleasures great, but there are much more cost effective routes for 300hp engines.

John does a great job on the chips, ours made 184 hp 255 tq, but with the new intake, we are going for over 200 hp at the ground.

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85 SE 2.8 - beater coupe-
86 SE 3.4 -in progress 3800 II SC -
88 Formula GT 4.9 5 speed beast
Enough parts outside for another one
-And a 3.4 push rod for sale in the mall Go and look-

.

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: The ASG is ADVERTISED at 300hp... has anyone ever seen or dyno'd one of these engines? I haven't actually ever heard of anyone stepping up the major bucks they are asking for one of them... doesn't make sense to me either. The big bang for the buck on the 4.9 is the low end torque in stock form...if your adding extra strength or mods yourself for experimental pleasures great, but there are much more cost effective routes for 300hp engines.

I CERTAINLY wouldn't PAY that much for an ASG, but since people TEND to get into a PARTICULAR engine I thought it DESERVED honorable mention. Nope, I don't know ANYONE that has dyno'd one. But then again the Fiero was ADVERTISED at 140 hp and can BARELY eek that out.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 07-24-2004).]

reason I replied asking was that I've seen that website up for as long as I've been here and it gets brought up on occasion, but I've never heard if the engine even really exists or if anyone can back up it's claims.

I know of two ASG engines. They exist and the owners claim they scream. 300HP? Don't know. I believe they've sold more than that though. I would have to be really stuck on the 4.9L engine to consider one but my point was that *if* they do perform that well, the cost of duplicating it should be far less than ASG's suggested retail price. If someone was really sweet on the 4.9L they should determine what ASG did. I would imagine Rockcrawl could shed some light on it.

TK

thats an old page.. ASG makes( or made, since the unavialblity of new 4.9L crate engines).. when asg stopped making the asg 5.0L engine, they offered two stages.. the first stage offered 290 HP and 340 ft lbs of torque. the second stage asg 5.0L offered 320 HP and 400 ft lbs of torque.. pretty much hitting the upper limits of that engine normally aspirated..they sold them as completed longblocks.. brand new, $3200 for the stage 1, and $4000 for the stage 2.

quote Originally posted by TK: The ASG 5.0 is rated 300HP I believe (but then I believe a lot of things). Pricey, but I would think you could duplicate the changes cheaper. http://www.angelfire.com/stars/mycaddy/asg.htm Terry

Oh, that's not so bad. The complete engine for one guy was in the mid-5k. With the profit markup, it might have $2500-3000 in it. You could easily spend that rebuilding a 10 second 3800SC over and over and over and over......