i would like to see a list of different motors that can be swapped in to our beloved cars. if you could desribe details like horsepower and torque ratings, powerups, and other pertanant info that would help me.
i want to make a chart with advantages and disadvantages to each. this will aid in my search for the perfect swap.
------------------ 1985 Pontiac Fiero 2.5 SE, 218,000 miles and still runing!!! more pics of my 85 can be found here 1987 Pontiac Fiero GT, 132,000 miles! She's alive finaly! 1987 Pontiac Fiero 2.8 SE, 54,000 miles :( with frame damage :damon: <- Doomed unless someone has a really cheep frame in so. callifornia!
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04:08 AM
PFF
System Bot
cooguyfish Member
Posts: 2658 From: Hamilton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2002
another bit of info i forgot to add is weight... these are all approximate.
northstar, LS1, & 3.8 S/C are around 400 lbs (same as V-6 fiero) 3.4 DOHC should be a little under 400 lbs The shortstar, and the new 60* v-6 should weigh around 300 LBs (i'm basing that on if an aluminumv-8 weighs 400 a v-6 should weigh around 300) <- this would make them close to what the duke weighs
O and we can't forget the ecotec engines: 2.0 S/C 205 horse 200 FT lbs 2.2 140 ish horse 150 ish FT lbs 2.4 (VVT) 170 HP & FT LBS don't know at what RPM's but they all redline around 6700 and have a huge after market. and they should weigh well under 300 lbs
-Fish
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10:19 AM
cooguyfish Member
Posts: 2658 From: Hamilton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2002
Widower, buying an engine should be around the same price, but you may have to get a slighty higher mileage northstar, (this all depends on what kind of deal you can get, i think you can get either for between 500-2000) the 3.8 S/C you have to wire up a harness, the northstar you can buy a stand alone computer from CHRfab.com ($1500) but then you either need a manual trans, or an unelectronically controlled auto. you have to do mounts on both, (if you have an 88 you have to modify your strut towers for the N*.) you have to reroute coolant lines, and then exhuast, there are more options for a 3.8, but the N* isn't impossible. another note, some things don't line up on a N*, for example, there is a trans bolt that is in the wrong place for a N* block, will has found a way around it. PM him and he could give you a link to his thread or the picture that's in it.
hope that helps you our more.
-Fish
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10:27 AM
widower Member
Posts: 14 From: savannah,ga usa Registered: Jan 2004
thanks man i think i'll go with the 3.8 s/c since this is my first swap. I'm buying another fiero soon so maybe that'll get the N*. I love my fiero it's just not muscle enough for me. My friend's MR2 killin' me.
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10:38 AM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
Well this is kind of a hard thing to list. The problem is many engines can be modded for more power. As an example the stock 2.8L is 140hp Depending on the mods, You can get 150hp-190hp. Or even the 3800SC, All you do is change the SC pulley and you get more. (I think it's around 275hp) Just adding a turbo to a 2.8L gets you to 200hp, or add the turbo to a 3.4L TDC and your closer to 300hp. The other engines can also be modded as well. Almost any GM engine can (or has been) swapped into a Fiero. A basic list of engine swaps with their stock horsepower is: QUAD 4 160-180hp 2.8L 140hp 3.1L/3100 150hp-155hp 3.4L 160hp (cast heads) 3400 165hp-185hp (Aluminum heads) 3.4L TDC/DOHC 210hp-215hp 3800 190hp 3800SC 245hp 4.3L 180hp-200hp 4.9L V-8 200hp Northstar 275hp-300hp SBC 350 LM1 255HP SBC 350 LT1 275hp-300hp SBC 350 HO 330hp SBC ZZ4 350hp-385hp SBC LS1 330hp-345hp
There are so many factors in determining what you want out of your swap that the engine of choice is more of a personal choice. Do you want a 275hp Northstar or will a 3800SC with a pulley change be better?? Many here have done so much with different engines that the actual engine isn't really that important. Like FieroX has a 3800SC screaming into the 11's just like California Kids V-8. Just look at the 1/4 mile thread and you'll see what mods people are using. Basically figure out how fast you want to go, how much you want to spend, and see which swap will fit your needs.
------------------ Happiness isn't around the corner... Happiness IS the corner.
[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 02-02-2004).]
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10:40 AM
widower Member
Posts: 14 From: savannah,ga usa Registered: Jan 2004
Thanks to cooguyfish I have been insipred to start a engine database for swaps. heres what I have so far let me know if you can fill in any of the blanks or if I'm missing any motors that have been swaped in.
well i'm glad i could have inspired you to do that, but the link does not work for me, o, and i was going to include the 4.9, but i've not found the complete specs on it, (like @ what RPM it makes power)
well i'm glad i could have inspired you to do that, but the link does not work for me, o, and i was going to include the 4.9, but i've not found the complete specs on it, (like @ what RPM it makes power)
Damn it works from work not from home. I'll fix it tomorrow.
[This message has been edited by linenoise (edited 02-02-2004).]
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05:16 PM
Rickady88GT Member
Posts: 10657 From: Central CA Registered: Dec 2002
Wow that is a cool list of engines for swaps but I saw a mistake in it. You list the 3.5 (LX5) Short Star as being 3423cc, then in the section of HP per L you list it as being 3.589L and pnly having 61.42HP per L. The actual displacement is 3473cc for 61.90HP per L. So the torque is 66.20 per L
Also you have the 3.4 (LQ1) as having 215HP but it is only listed as having 210 HP for 61.76HP per L. With 64.70 TQ per L I know not a big deal, but the power curve is much better in the 3.5 S*. It starts making more power sooner and keeps making it after the 3.4 starts to fall off. And then the 3.5 has a much longer life with better fuel economy
------------------
Rickady88GT QuadCam 3.5 V6
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09:07 PM
Mastermind Member
Posts: 1396 From: Chicago, 4.9 IL Registered: Apr 2002
i want to have a torque monster, something that can pull serious G's off the line. top speed doesnt matter much, but 0-60's kind of do. ultimately i want something that can chirp the tires in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. i test drove a 2002 Trans Am with a 5.7L v8 LS1 that could do that, and i fell in love. thats what i want out of my 87 Fiero GT, plus i want a really muscle car sound out of it that makes people really look twice at me as i go by.
ultimately i would like to stay under $2000 to $2500.
so now what would you recommend?
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04:51 AM
cooguyfish Member
Posts: 2658 From: Hamilton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2002
Well, if you drove a Trans Am and fell in love i would say go with the LS1 or get an LS1 with the idea of switching to LS6 heads and intake (another 55 horse or so) of course, your not going to do that under $2500 unless you can get some great deals.
i think if you're really wanting the horsepower, then go 3800 S/C auto, Change a belt and a few small others and we're talking about 275ish hp and over 300 ft lbs, you might be able to get in a 3800 for under $2500 if you do everything else yourself, then when you have some more money, you can always add an intercooler, better exhuast, better cam, bore it out, etc.
bottom line, if you want it for less the $2500, i say go with the 3800. plan B would be though i would say a 4.9 (lot's of stock power, and there are some small things you can do to get more out of them) Plan C would be a SBC, and older one that you can get for cheap.
this is the order i would say at least, i'll push for the 3800 as my vote.
-Fish
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09:43 AM
datacop Member
Posts: 1426 From: Indianapolis, IN, USA Registered: Jan 2004
The 3.6 DOHC VVT (new 60*v6) is capible of 350hp and 325ft/lbs of trq in some versions (possibly to come?), all that has to be changed is some eletrical programming, making the VVT system more....powerful....and that does'nt count as modded. Just a thaught. That's probly what I'm going to do. Oh, and I think it can rev to 7000-7500, not shure. I think that's whats in the new caddy Sports car!
the 3.6L is already running around in a few cars, but they make 260 HP stock. the CTS, while not new (for this model year that is), has one, but it is front engine, read drive. i don't know what else is using them, but it's the engine that i did want, now i want the 4.0 olds because i love the v8 sound of a northstar. another good thing about the 3.6, it has a stand alone engine managment= no wiring of the harness.
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11:02 AM
PFF
System Bot
datacop Member
Posts: 1426 From: Indianapolis, IN, USA Registered: Jan 2004
i want to have a torque monster, something that can pull serious G's off the line. top speed doesnt matter much, but 0-60's kind of do. ultimately i want something that can chirp the tires in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. i test drove a 2002 Trans Am with a 5.7L v8 LS1 that could do that, and i fell in love. thats what i want out of my 87 Fiero GT, plus i want a really muscle car sound out of it that makes people really look twice at me as i go by.
ultimately i would like to stay under $2000 to $2500.
so now what would you recommend?
My completly stock LT1 made my mum faint when I gunned it off the line if thats in indication of the g's it pulls. And it deffinelty sounds like a muscle car. Its incredible. I swear the wheels almost popped off the ground. Did I mention its BONE stock??? It cant be done for $2500 though, its worth waiting IMO, figure $5 grand if you do it yourself, and that will leave you some change. I think it could be done with a manual tranny for $4grand, maybe a little less. It all depends. But if your figure is under 2500, your dreaming really. Ive heard of 4.9's being done for that price, but I could never find motors for very cheap. They all had over 100,000 miles. I got my SBC for $800, had all acc. wireing harness, and 36,000 miles.
------------------ 1986 GT, LT1/4T60E Find out whats involved-http://dtcc.cz28.com/LT1build/index.htm See its progress on the Forum. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/045554.html Its in and runs like nothing ive ever seen:D
Well, if you drove a Trans Am and fell in love i would say go with the LS1 or get an LS1 with the idea of switching to LS6 heads and intake (another 55 horse or so) of course, your not going to do that under $2500 unless you can get some great deals.
so that means that i will need to increase my budget quite a bit. i will be doing everything my self, including a rebuild if needed.
if there are any great deals out there leave it to me to find them!
one other thing is that this swap MUST be california legal which also means no carb.
[This message has been edited by tednelson83 (edited 02-03-2004).]
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10:27 PM
Rickady88GT Member
Posts: 10657 From: Central CA Registered: Dec 2002
so that means that i will need to increase my budget quite a bit. i will be doing everything my self, including a rebuild if needed.
if there are any great deals out there leave it to me to find them!
one other thing is that this swap MUST be california legal which also means no carb.
ya know, it'll cost ya, but if you go manual, i think GM sells the crate LS motors with stand alone engine management, i'm not sure on that, i heard it somewhere. but if you can do that, and either go manual, or none electronically controlled auto (ex. fiero 3spd, or 4t60 (none E)) then all you have to do is fab an adapter plate (talk to LS1swap on the forum) make mounts, exhuast, reroute some lines, and any other misc items that may need done to fit it in. course, if you're just wanting a V8 don't forget about the northstar. but i still say 3800 S/C (if you want an auto) if you really want a manual, i say LS1 or N* (and no matter what people tell you, they have around the same powerband to Peak torque at 4400ish RPM, and horse is close too) N* would be greater on top end i would think though.
so that means that i will need to increase my budget quite a bit. i will be doing everything my self, including a rebuild if needed.
if there are any great deals out there leave it to me to find them!
one other thing is that this swap MUST be california legal which also means no carb.
Yes your budget is a little low . I do have the CAD files if you are interested. I have some new ideas to move the starter underneath with the use of a front sump pan. This should lower the cost a little. $2500 will just get you a good used LS1 engine. California is tuff no matter what swap you are doing . Orville did the LS1 swap in CA. But I think he ended up getting a specialty vehicle permit or something like that.
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11:29 AM
PFF
System Bot
RACE Member
Posts: 4845 From: Des Moines IA Registered: Dec 2002
This is a great thread. Could you indicate which engines will bolt directly to a stock automatic?
I recently got the swapbug and want a more powerful engine. I still would like to use my current transmission for ease of installation and lowest cost. I have been reading the archives and have decided to limit myself to 300 hp due to the trans. Keep in mind that I am not an ASE certified tech and do not own a welder, but I do have some mechanical aptitude. Recommendations will be greatly appreciated.
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01:34 PM
Rickady88GT Member
Posts: 10657 From: Central CA Registered: Dec 2002
You made a mistake. you listed two different displacements for the 3.5, 3423 under displacement and 3.598L under HP/Liter. But acording to GM powertrain.com the actual displacement is 3473. Sorry about the lame pic but I scaned the info because it is no longer on GMpowertrain.com
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 02-04-2004).]
You made a mistake. you listed two different displacements for the 3.5, 3423 under displacement and 3.598L under HP/Liter. But acording to GM powertrain.com the actual displacement is 3473.
Sorry about the lame pic but I scaned the info because it is no longer on GMpowertrain.com
Ok you got me, glad it's still a work in progress.
[This message has been edited by linenoise (edited 02-04-2004).]
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10:35 PM
Feb 5th, 2004
Rickady88GT Member
Posts: 10657 From: Central CA Registered: Dec 2002
so whats 10 HP? so thay used a different dyno, or they used different gas! as long as it is in the ball park it's all good. or maybe it really has 205HP and one source rounds up, and one rounds down.
And then the 3.5 has a much longer life with better fuel economy
