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Pontiac G6 to share 6 speed Getrag with Saab 9-3 Aero by Will
Started on: 12-31-2003 04:30 PM
Replies: 21
Last post by: hyperv6 on 01-01-2004 02:30 PM
Will
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Report this Post12-31-2003 04:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post
The February issue of Motor Trend has a first look or first drive of the upcoming Pontiac G6 (Grand-Am replacement). The G6 GTP will have a 3900 V6 (enlargement of the 3800 AFAIK), with the same 6 speed Getrag box as used in the Saab 9-3 Aero. I can imagine that the 3900 will produce at least 250 ftlbs of torque... which makes this 6 speed box the strongest transverse manual ever offered by GM. I know I'll be looking for one in a couple of years.

Let the gossip begin...

------------------
'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow

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Report this Post12-31-2003 05:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
Keep your fingers crossed that the 3900 is just an enlarged 3800. Then the chances are good that the bellhousing will be the GM FWD standard bellhousing and that 6-speed will bolt up to our engines.
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hyperv6
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Report this Post12-31-2003 09:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Direct Link to This Post
The 3900 is a new engine I believe with DOHC similar to the new Caddy CTS V6, this is a whole new family of 60 degree engines. Also I am not sure on the trans axle bolt pattern or if it will be used on the FWD [I would think it will] but I know it will be on the AWD G6. I will try to check this info and get back.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 12-31-2003).]

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Fastback 86
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Report this Post12-31-2003 09:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fastback 86Send a Private Message to Fastback 86Direct Link to This Post
Well lets hope for the best...best for Fiero swappers that is! I'd like to get my hands on a 6spd for my car, specially when I get that 3.4 DOHC in there.

BTW, I believe that the 3900 is another pushrod engine, not a DOHC. GM sure likes them pushrods.

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Toddster
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Report this Post12-31-2003 09:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ToddsterSend a Private Message to ToddsterDirect Link to This Post
Aghhhhhh

[/Homer Simpson Slobbering]

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Report this Post12-31-2003 09:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LoW_KeYSend a Private Message to LoW_KeYDirect Link to This Post
nothing wrong with pushrod

if that tranny does work

------------------
88 5spd Modified 3800 Series II SC Formula
Modifications 2004 - Intercooler | 2.8 pulley | 1 inch drop | Interior | 17 inch wheels

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California Kid
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Report this Post12-31-2003 09:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidDirect Link to This Post
Yep, those were the 4 door Sedan Models that the Engineering and Proving Grounds Centers whipped into shape for the media to take a spin in. Are you sure there was a 'stick' in one of those 4 Doors??? Seems a little unlikely, although it doesn't stop them from writting about the manual that would be offered in the Coupe and Retractable Hard Top Models to follow later. I'll see what I can find out when I get back to work.
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Report this Post12-31-2003 09:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Direct Link to This Post
Well I stand corrected The 3.9 is an OHV engine starting at 240 HP with Displacment on demand and variable valve timing. The reason I was confused was I had heard it was going to have variable valve timing but it will be a first time use in a pushrod engine. Also they have a 3 valve version coming that will show around 290 HP. You Might want to wait on the 3.4 DOHC as with the new engines coming it will be a boat anchor. Also they Caddy CTS is a 3.6 DOHC that can be used in a FWD or RWD config. It also has more power coming. Oh one last note I found, the new ZO6 [with a modified version of the new 400hp LS2] will get a 500Hp V8 with rumors of it having 3 valves and pushrods. Don't ask me how they get 3 valves to work. I heard it was in the rockers?
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Fastback 86
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Report this Post12-31-2003 10:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fastback 86Send a Private Message to Fastback 86Direct Link to This Post
Well, much as I would love a brand new motor, that has three inherent problems. I can't afford it, I want to swap this summer, and no one makes a kit for it. Its a daily driver, so I kinda need it back as quick as possible.

Maybe some day in the future, when I can afford to have more than one Fiero, I'll see about another swap with something new and improved.

Also, not that theres anything wrong with pushrods, but it is old technology. None of the japenese cars use pushrods, they all have DOHC motors. The S2000 screams with only a 4 banger, thanks to valve technology. I don't have a big preference either way, but sooner or later pushrods will be out and overhead valves will be in. Old technology doesn't last forever, no matter how good it is. Sooner or later GM is gonna have to fully embrace newer stuff. I just think DOHC engines have more power potential, since you can't get a car anymore that doesn't have a computer that could keep up with your desktop computer.

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Report this Post12-31-2003 10:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarDirect Link to This Post
60 degree, displacement on demand, overhead valves, variable valve timing. 240 HP x 245 lb.ft.
____________________

From GM, quoted on XtremeGA.com
http://www.xtremega.com/forums/showthread.php?t=485

PONTIAC, Mich. – Thomas Edison said, “Genius is one percent inspiration, 99 percent perspiration.” GM Powertrain engineers have slightly rearranged Edison’s ratio, using equal parts of inspired new engineering and exacting evolution of existing technology to develop the new 240-horsepower 3900 V-6.

“The application of elegant-yet-simple technology to a proven architecture allowed us to give the new 3900 V-6 premium-engine attributes, such as variable valve timing and active intake, at a cost more customers can afford,” said Dick Michalski, chief engineer for 60-degree OHV V-6 engines. “The 3900 will give GM car buyers a terrific combination of high power density, outstanding low-speed torque and excellent fuel economy.”

The 3900, the latest in GM’s “high-value” family of 60-degree overhead valve V-6 engines, benefits from two significant new technology applications that simultaneously deliver increased power and markedly reduced fuel consumption and emissions.

The 3.9-liter is GM’s first V-6 to use the innovative Displacement on Demand (DOD) cylinder-deactivation system. DOD significantly reduces overall fuel consumption by allowing the engine to operate on just half of its cylinders when driving conditions don’t require full power. GM will first launch the technology on the Gen IV Vortec 5300 V-8 engine and will add it to the 3900 V-6 in 2005. The 3900 will debut without DOD in the all-new, midsize Pontiac G6.

But DOD isn’t the new 3900’s only claim to fame: it also is the first GM overhead-valve (OHV) engine to employ variable valve timing – a torque- and efficiency-enhancing feature until now typically reserved for more expensive overhead-camshaft (OHC) architecture engines. Engines with “fixed” valve timing compromise between conflicting performance demands in order to provide an acceptable overall balance of engine operation. The 3900’s variable valve timing system largely eliminates those compromises, allowing the engine to produce more torque in a wider range of engine operation – while concurrently reducing emissions and improving fuel economy.

The two new technologies combine to give the 3900 V-6 high specific output and torque across a broad operating range, along with a lusty dose of torque that peaks at a low, satisfying engine speed. The 3900 is estimated to develop 240 horsepower at 5900 rpm and 245 lb.-ft. of torque at just 2800 rpm. Moreover, thanks to the 3900’s torque-enhancing technologies, 90 percent of peak torque is available from 1800 rpm to 5800 rpm, enhancing the engine’s driveability and performance “feel.”

Improved fuel economy
The new 3900 V-6 (LZ8) is a 3.9-liter, two-valves-per-cylinder OHV V-6 that is most closely related to the 3500 V-6 (LX9) launched for the 2004 model year Chevrolet Malibu. The largest of GM’s expanding family of 60-degree V-6 engines, the 3900 achieves its 3900 cc of displacement via an increase in bore size to 99 mm from the 3500 V-6’s 94 mm – and also incorporates several important new innovations and upgrades.

The 3900 is GM Powertrain’s first V-6 engine to use the unique Displacement on Demand (DOD) technology. The Displacement on Demand system was designed to markedly improve the fuel efficiency of six- and eight-cylinder engines without sacrificing performance. The system boosts aggregate fuel economy by between 6 percent and 8 percent.

Michalski said the 3900’s increased displacement fits like glove-in-hand with Displacement on Demand: “A bigger engine is better when you want to maximize the amount of time the engine spends in three-cylinder operation,” he explained.

Typically, increasing an engine’s displacement also increases its fuel consumption – but not so when an engine sports Displacement on Demand. Enlarging the 3900’s displacement by 400 cc actually improves its overall fuel economy because the larger displacement translates to a greater amount of time the engine can operate in its ultra-efficient three-cylinder mode. As it turns out, bigger really is better when using Displacement on Demand.

The Displacement on Demand system is designed to enhance fuel economy in a totally unobtrusive manner. The 3900 always starts on six cylinders, and always uses six cylinders when the powertrain controller determines the vehicle’s speed or load requires additional power. But since most routine driving requires only a fraction of an engine’s total power, once underway the 3900-equipped vehicle will seamlessly transition to three-cylinder mode. If, for example, the driver requires higher performance or the vehicle is negotiating a steep grade, the 3900 instantaneously reverts to all-cylinder operation.

In light-load driving situations, Displacement on Demand maximizes each of the three operating cylinder’s thermal, mechanical and pumping efficiencies, rather than sending fuel to six cylinders that aren’t doing as much work. And when the cylinders themselves are optimally sized, as with the new 3900, Displacement on Demand will instruct the engine to operate more of the time in three-cylinder mode.

Attaining the engine displacement to maximize Displacement on Demand’s advantages created its own unique challenge, however. Michalski said that to attain the 3.9 liters of displacement Powertrain engineers deemed ideal, the 3900’s larger cylinder bores had to be offset 1.5 mm from the crankshaft center line so that the cylinders did not interfere with the camshaft. This required development of a new engine-block design for the 3900.

New electromechanical controls
In typical two-valves-per-cylinder OHV engines, the camshaft has a lobe corresponding to each cylinder’s intake and exhaust valve. As the camshaft turns, the lobe contacts a hydraulic roller valve lifter, which drives the pushrod that translates the camshaft’s rotating motion to the linear motion that opens each valve.

But in Displacement on Demand-equipped engines, half of the cylinders have unique two-piece valve lifters, which incorporate two telescoping sections that can collapse into one another. An oil-pressure-activated locking pin in the lifters is engaged or disengaged – on command from the engine control module (ECM) – according to whether Displacement on Demand operation is warranted.

For normal six-cylinder operation with the 3900 V-6, the locking pin solidly fixes the valve lifters’ two telescoping sections, meaning that as the camshaft lobe contacts the lifter, the intake and exhaust valves are opened. To deactivate three of the six cylinders, hydraulic pressure is used to unlock the pin, enabling the valve lifters’ two sections to freely telescope into one another. Thus as the camshaft lobe contacts the “deactivated” valve lifter, one section compresses into the other and the camshaft motion is not translated to the pushrod, meaning that cylinder’s intake and exhaust valves remain closed.

Thanks to the split-second electromechanical control available from the 3900 V-6’s powerful ECM – as well as the ECM’s ability to electronically “speak” with many other engine- and transmission-control sensors – cylinder deactivation and reactivation can occur in milliseconds. As a result, the transition between six-cylinder and three-cylinder operation is seamless and imperceptible to vehicle occupants.

Variable valve timing delivers new flexibility
The new 3900 V-6 also boasts GM’s first use of variable valve timing for an OHV V-6 engine. The variable valve timing system uses an electronically controlled hydraulic gear-driven camshaft phaser to alter the relationship of the camshaft as much as 40 degrees overall (25 degrees retard and 15 degrees advance) relative to the crankshaft.

The 3900’s camshaft phaser provides for infinitely variable adjustment of camshaft timing with respect to the crankshaft. By electronically controlling the camshaft, the optimum location can be selected for various engine operating conditions, maximizing torque and horsepower outputs.

Variable valve timing also presents significant emissions benefits, said Dr. Gary Horvat, assistant chief engineer, 60-degree OHV V-6 engines. The 3900’s precision valve control means engineers could eliminate the external exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) system. In addition, maximum exhaust-valve opening helps the 3900 to quickly warm the exhaust catalyst, improving cold-start emissions.

“The system simplifies things greatly for emissions calibration,” said Horvat. “We have considerably more control over output – and a better overall emissions ‘profile’ – as a result of going to variable valve timing.”

The 3900’s variable valve timing is coupled with another important new feature: a dual-path, active intake manifold. The active manifold is an engine feature usually found only on high-cost, premium European performance cars, but the new manifold design is standard with the 3900 V-6.

“The variable intake manifold is a significant low-speed torque ‘enhancer’ for the 3900,” said Michalski. “It gives the 3900 a broader torque curve that retains higher specific torque output across the engine speed range.” As with Displacement on Demand, the active intake manifold is designed to make the most of the 3900 V-6’s increased displacement.

The active air intake optimizes incoming airflow through a valve in the intake manifold. The valve creates longer or shorter intake tracts that correspond to desired engine-performance parameters. At low engine speeds, the valve creates a longer path for intake air, enhancing combustion efficiency and torque output. At higher engine speeds, the valve opens, creating a shorter air path for maximum power production.

Refinement, durability
Although the new 3900 V-6 was designed as a high-output, performance-oriented engine, it hardly foregoes the traits of reliability, durability and refinement that are characteristics of GM Powertrain’s “high-value” engine families.

------------------
Raydar
88 3.4 coupe.

Coming soon...
88 Formula, presently under the knife.

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Will
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Report this Post12-31-2003 10:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post
If it's based on the good old 60 degree 6 architecture, then it should still have the "classic" FWD bolt pattern... thus the transmission should crossover to our cars more easily than other candidates.

------------------
'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow

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Report this Post12-31-2003 11:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WhuffoClick Here to visit Whuffo's HomePageSend a Private Message to WhuffoDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fastback 86:

Well, much as I would love a brand new motor, that has three inherent problems. I can't afford it, I want to swap this summer, and no one makes a kit for it. Its a daily driver, so I kinda need it back as quick as possible.

Maybe some day in the future, when I can afford to have more than one Fiero, I'll see about another swap with something new and improved.

Also, not that theres anything wrong with pushrods, but it is old technology. None of the japenese cars use pushrods, they all have DOHC motors. The S2000 screams with only a 4 banger, thanks to valve technology. I don't have a big preference either way, but sooner or later pushrods will be out and overhead valves will be in. Old technology doesn't last forever, no matter how good it is. Sooner or later GM is gonna have to fully embrace newer stuff. I just think DOHC engines have more power potential, since you can't get a car anymore that doesn't have a computer that could keep up with your desktop computer.

I'm going to write up a little article about DOHC engine and their higher HP ratings; I'll start a new thread in General Chat. Things aren't what they seem in the world of small displacement high HP engines...

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Fastback 86
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Report this Post12-31-2003 11:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fastback 86Send a Private Message to Fastback 86Direct Link to This Post
I look forward to reading it.
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Report this Post12-31-2003 11:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroRacerClick Here to visit FieroRacer's HomePageSend a Private Message to FieroRacerDirect Link to This Post
One thing people have to look at is in packaging. The main advantage in a pushrod engine is smaller heads meaning a smaller package. Ask anyone who's replaced a 2.8 with a 3.4 DOHC. The 3900 will be a 60 degree Pushrod V6 utilizing Variable Cam Phasing (A first on pushrod), as well as Variable Intake and DOD. It will also utilize Oil squirters. The engine is a larger version of the new 3500 used in the new Malibu Max, though the 3900 gets better gas mileage due to being able to run on 3 cylinders longer because of more torque.
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Report this Post01-01-2004 02:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Kameo KidSend a Private Message to Kameo KidDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:

I will try to check this info and get back.

why don't you see if they will give up any info on "Blue Thunder", the GT40 Killer

------------------

3.4 DOHC Turbo swap in progress

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Report this Post01-01-2004 02:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ryan.hessSend a Private Message to ryan.hessDirect Link to This Post
Jeez... that sounds so complicated. I bet with trying all this technology for the first time, the first 1000 engines rolling off GM's assembly line will explode.
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hyperv6
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Report this Post01-01-2004 09:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Direct Link to This Post
I would like the truth come out on the DOHC vs OHV I think many myths and misconceptions will be panned out. As for adapting these engines it won't take long they are not much more complicated as what's out now. I remember the first TPI small blocks and everyone then said we can't swap or improve them.
Also the prices will drop on these engines not long after they come out since there will be so many of them made. I was not trying to bash the 3.4 it's just in the next 2 years there are going to be so many improvment and options it could lead to regret.

On Blue Thunder. This a name of the test car GM has used in Germany for the C6 last year. Now the name has come back tied to a supercar program. Word is out that Blue Thunder will have 625 HP from a 427 LS2 based Small Block, it will have 3 valves per cylinder and a supercharger. Some of the body panels will be carbon fiber and weight will drop below the 3000 pound mark. GM is saying nothing is in the works but it was printed when Lutz was asked about the new Vette in November, where he said the new Z06 should handle the GT but if not they have somthing that will.
Keep in mind GM has a new Performance Build Center in Wixom Michigan to build limited edition toys for the public. Think of them as GM's AMG.
We will just have to wait and see what the 500 HP Z06 will do first, I expect mid 11's in the 1/4 and a 3.5 sec 0-60 for under 70 grand. If thats not enough I think we will see Blue Thunder.
By the way look at the SS show car from last year and the new Vette. they have many similar traits. look for a new RWD Impala around 2007 or 8 that will carry over a similar theme. They almost had a V8 in the Impala SS now but lost it and had to settle for the 3800 SC as a stop gap till the RWD V8 comes out.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 01-01-2004).]

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Report this Post01-01-2004 10:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for John BoelteSend a Private Message to John BoelteDirect Link to This Post
From what I read in the above artical, it seems like it is going to be an oherhead valve push rod engine. No overhead cams.

Qoute:

New electromechanical controls
In typical two-valves-per-cylinder OHV engines, the camshaft has a lobe corresponding to each cylinder’s intake and exhaust valve. As the camshaft turns, the lobe contacts a hydraulic roller valve lifter, which drives the pushrod that translates the camshaft’s rotating motion to the linear motion that opens each valve.

But in Displacement on Demand-equipped engines, half of the cylinders have unique two-piece valve lifters, which incorporate two telescoping sections that can collapse into one another. An oil-pressure-activated locking pin in the lifters is engaged or disengaged – on command from the engine control module (ECM) – according to whether Displacement on Demand operation is warranted.

For normal six-cylinder operation with the 3900 V-6, the locking pin solidly fixes the valve lifters’ two telescoping sections, meaning that as the camshaft lobe contacts the lifter, the intake and exhaust valves are opened. To deactivate three of the six cylinders, hydraulic pressure is used to unlock the pin, enabling the valve lifters’ two sections to freely telescope into one another. Thus as the camshaft lobe contacts the “deactivated” valve lifter, one section compresses into the other and the camshaft motion is not translated to the pushrod, meaning that cylinder’s intake and exhaust valves remain closed.

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Report this Post01-01-2004 11:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTDirect Link to This Post
The Saab has the EcoTech 2.0L Four banger with a Turbo.
I dont think this tranny will be used on GM V6's. There is just to big of a bowerband differance between the GM V6 and High reving EcoTech.
If they do use the same basic tranny they will most likely use a V6 specific bell houseing for the V6 and they wont be enterchangable. Some parts may be but, they would use a totaly differant gear ratio and may even have stronger gear sets and castings. This would be very good for us if they do this, because that opens the door for this tranny to be used in the entire GM V6 and N* line
It is just to big of a liability to use a tranny that is to weak for a big GM car and a big V6. I just dont think that a little 2.0L EcoTech would use the same tranny as a 3.9L V6. GM has not had a manual on a transvers V6 in 10 years, why? They may have to make them so big and heavy that they wont have the room to fit a strong manual tranny in there. Why now? Modern tech has made stronger lighter and smaller parts for everything, and manuales are cheaper than autos too.
Just feeding the Roomer Mill
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Report this Post01-01-2004 12:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TaurusThugSend a Private Message to TaurusThugDirect Link to This Post
am i the only one that thinks that this displacement on demand thing is HORRIBLE, they did this in the 80's with caddy and it was a failure from what i ahve heard from owners plus its just 1 more thing that can break. i like the idea of more big motors and more hp but i dont like the d.o.d. idea. not to flame or anything just adding to the firewood
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Report this Post01-01-2004 01:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for I'm BackSend a Private Message to I'm BackDirect Link to This Post
Who will be the first to get one? I wonder what the final drive ratio will be/is? If it's the same, no help, other than a stronger box...
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Report this Post01-01-2004 02:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Direct Link to This Post
This ain't your daddy's 8-6-4. Keep in mind your using 10,000 or more computer power reading this than was used in that engine. This system is the same basic set up Mercedes is already using. This time it works. 20 years of technology has corrected any problems and from what I have heard on the V8 truck you would never know it was on it till you fill up your tank and see the milage gain. I understand you warryness, but I know you will be suprised with what will come out.
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