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Rotary engine in Fiero? by Smooth 88coupe
Started on: 11-12-2003 01:50 PM
Replies: 45
Last post by: jimtesla on 11-18-2003 11:38 PM
Smooth 88coupe
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Report this Post11-12-2003 01:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Smooth 88coupeSend a Private Message to Smooth 88coupeDirect Link to This Post
Is it possible for a rotary engine to fit inside a Fiero? I have heard that these engines can haul some major A$$. Let me know. Thanks.
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Report this Post11-12-2003 01:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ThaFieroMunkSend a Private Message to ThaFieroMunkDirect Link to This Post
it would be interesting, but probably more work/time/money than many other engine options. To get the same performance there are many other cheaper ways to go. I'd love to see something like that though
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Smooth 88coupe
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Report this Post11-12-2003 01:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Smooth 88coupeSend a Private Message to Smooth 88coupeDirect Link to This Post
Lets just say that money was not an issue. And you just happened to find a engine for a real good price and a transmission that would fit. I have heard that they can red line higher than 30,000 RPM and have over 500HP. Would the power be worth it?

[This message has been edited by Smooth 88coupe (edited 11-13-2003).]

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Report this Post11-12-2003 02:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GooseSend a Private Message to GooseDirect Link to This Post
Has nightmares about Mazda RX-3s I hope you have stock in an oil company because those things eat oil. IMHO not that economical and you can get the same performance out of a 3800 S/C or SBC for a lot less money, but hey if your willing to spend the clams, go for it.

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88 Coupe
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[This message has been edited by Goose (edited 11-12-2003).]

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Report this Post11-12-2003 02:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for avengador1Send a Private Message to avengador1Direct Link to This Post
They haven't made RX3's since the seventies. The advances in material science over the last thirty years have yielded better apex seals for the rotary engines. The last RX7's had no oil burning problems and were putting out 300 horsepower to boot.
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Report this Post11-12-2003 03:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for yashmackClick Here to visit yashmack's HomePageSend a Private Message to yashmackDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Smooth 88coupe:

Lets just say that money was not an issue. And you just happened to find a engine for a eal good price and a transmission that would fit.

If you could find all this there would probably be no issue to get it in the car. the hard part is finding the engine, finding or fabricating a transmission to work with the fiero frame and the engine and driveline components. I dont know how the rotary bolts to a transmission, but if you can make an adapter plate and fit it to your transmission, as well as make any electronic components work with each other, you could do it.

how realistic it is to do this depends on how much cash you have. the power advantages would probably be negligible for the amount of cash you spend, would be better to get a 3800SC or even a northstar :P

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blazin'
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Report this Post11-12-2003 03:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blazin'Send a Private Message to blazin'Direct Link to This Post
I vaguely remember a similar thread idea about a few weeks ago, and I recall someone saying the placement of the rotary's exhaust manifold would interfer with the Fiero's axle.
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Report this Post11-12-2003 03:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Smooth 88coupe:

Lets just say that money was not an issue. And you just happened to find a engine for a eal good price and a transmission that would fit. I have heard that they can red line higher than 30,000 RPM and have over 500HP. Would the power be worth it?

And I have heard a 350 Chevy can redline higher than 12,000 rpm and have over 2000HP. Doesn't make it so.

The last generation RX7 engine made 250HP in turbo form, and was notorious for grenading itself with the slightest amount of spark knock. High boost, high rpm, and a marginal cooling system, coupled with the relatively fragile apex seals used was a recipe for disaster. Great performing engine, but not durable. That's not my opinion - that's the opinion of Road and Track, Car and Driver, Sport Compact Car, etc.

Now the new Renesis Rotary in the RX8 may be different. It's 250HP normally aspirated, and redlines at about 9,000 rpm. It has VERY little torque, so you'll have to drive it like you hate it to get any power out of it.

30,000 rpm and 500hp has to be for race versions, which bear little resemblance to street engines in most cases.

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Report this Post11-12-2003 03:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for virii01Send a Private Message to virii01Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Smooth 88coupe:
I have heard that they can red line higher than 30,000 RPM and have over 500HP.

500HP? yes
30,000 RPM? no

I fully ported (peripheral port I think it is called) 13B with a turbo can make over 500 HP and redline at nearly 10K, but they are not streetable. I think a peripheral port (or maybe it's called monster port) idles somewhere between 3-4000RPM.

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Report this Post11-12-2003 09:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoricuasoyClick Here to visit Boricuasoy's HomePageSend a Private Message to BoricuasoyDirect Link to This Post
is the rotary engine lighter than a v8? if it is and you can get that much power out of it hell yea it would be worth it even if it only put out like 350hp it would still be worth the trouble plus youll probably have one of a kind, go for it and keep us informed.

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Report this Post11-12-2003 10:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JefrysukoSend a Private Message to JefrysukoDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by blazin':

I vaguely remember a similar thread idea about a few weeks ago, and I recall someone saying the placement of the rotary's exhaust manifold would interfer with the Fiero's axle.

That would be me

There was also someone else who said the crankshaft was somewhat higher than a piston engine and thus the oil pan would be lower than the cradle. I have not looked into that one yet but will the next time I get a chance.

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Smooth 88coupe
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Report this Post11-12-2003 10:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Smooth 88coupeSend a Private Message to Smooth 88coupeDirect Link to This Post
I dont really plan on doing this i was just wondering. A friend of mine wants to buy a fiero and put a big engine in it. Then he asked me if a rotary engine would fit in a fiero. The engine he is taking about gives off around 500Hp at extreme RPM's. I would love to try this but there is no possible way that I would be willing to give my car up for something that may not work. However, if I get another fiero and have extra cash then I might try something like that. Depends on engine cost and all sorts of things. Now that RX-7 engine would be damn nice to have in a fiero. 1/4 mile in 13.7 sec. Could be faster in fiero huh?
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Report this Post11-13-2003 12:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post
A 3rd Gen RX7 gains 50 lbs over the nose with an LT1. With an LS1, it actually loses weight over the nose. You'll only experience weight savings with a non-turbo rotary.

------------------
'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow

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Report this Post11-13-2003 04:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for VoidedSend a Private Message to VoidedDirect Link to This Post
.......If it's a 500 horse motor... and it runs 13.7's.....

it's a whole lotta rice, and a 250 hp motor.

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Report this Post11-13-2003 07:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Master Tuner AkimotoClick Here to visit Master Tuner Akimoto's HomePageSend a Private Message to Master Tuner AkimotoDirect Link to This Post
It is called a Bridge port and too lopey to be street driven...burp burp burp burp.
 
quote
Originally posted by virii01:

500HP? yes
30,000 RPM? no

I fully ported (peripheral port I think it is called) 13B with a turbo can make over 500 HP and redline at nearly 10K, but they are not streetable. I think a peripheral port (or maybe it's called monster port) idles somewhere between 3-4000RPM.

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[This message has been edited by Master Tuner Akimoto (edited 11-13-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Master Tuner Akimoto (edited 11-13-2003).]

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Report this Post11-13-2003 08:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Paul PrinceSend a Private Message to Paul PrinceDirect Link to This Post
30,000 rpm???????? Where did that come from? That thing would be in 30,000 pieces.......Paul
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Report this Post11-13-2003 09:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for LZeitgeistSend a Private Message to LZeitgeistDirect Link to This Post
Drove a co-worker's RX-7 a couple times... didn't like it much. Had to rev it up about 5-6000 RPM just to get any decent torque out of it - felt like I'd have to flog the crap out of it to get it to perform *anything* like my Formula.

Would I get used to it? Yeah, probably, but I *much* prefer the low-end torque of the Fiero V6.

------------------
Patrick W. Heinske -- LZeitgeist@aol.com -- 1988 Red Fiero Formula
- 1st Place - Stock Coupe - FOCOSEVA 2000
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(working on an Automoda convertible conversion...)

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Report this Post11-13-2003 09:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Master Tuner Akimoto:

It is called a Bridge port and too lopey to be street driven...burp burp burp burp.

A bridge port can be done on a stock housing. A peripheral intake port requries a special race housing. It makes insane power at insane RPM, but just like a full race piston engine, would need to idle at 2k+ RPM.
The Madza 787B LeMans car had a peripheral port 4 rotor.

A friend has a street ported 3rd gen with stock stationary gears and eccentric shaft. He was at an AutoX recently and had his throttle stick on a fun run. His engine management recorded a peak RPM of 9737 before he got it shut off. No damage. Stock stationary gears and eccentric shaft.

------------------
'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-13-2003).]

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Report this Post11-13-2003 09:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FastIndyFieroClick Here to visit FastIndyFiero's HomePageSend a Private Message to FastIndyFieroDirect Link to This Post
So what if the engine can spin to 30,000 RPM, who here is going to put their Getrag behind that? 15,000 RPM, and you've still got the same problems...
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Report this Post11-13-2003 12:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85GTorontoSend a Private Message to 85GTorontoDirect Link to This Post
I will admit I don't know a ton about the Rotary's myself but a good friend has a 3rd gen RX and let me tell you that car is FAST! He does have some mod's done to it but nothing ultra crazy, bigger intercooler, porting, exhaust etc but he says he's getting close to 450 from it. No idea how accurate that is BUT I will say its the quickest car I've been in. I would assume the power to weight would be much better than any piston engine barring anything ultra exotic. Car is funny as hell, sounds like a Cessena! They are designed to burn oil by the way. Oil is actually injected into the motor to lubricate them, a very small amount of course. During breakin of a rebuild they recommend you run 2 stroke oil right in the gas. I have heard some guys do that all the time in case the auto-injection fails(they disconnect it)
Anyone ever stopped to think why many race organizations have banned these motors or give them huge weight and/or displacment penalties?
I think it would be a great motor for a Fiero but finding a good used one may be another story.
Lets face it the concept is extremely sound, why use linear motion if you want rotary motion in the end?????
Cheers
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Report this Post11-13-2003 03:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mach10Send a Private Message to Mach10Direct Link to This Post
The Fiero is too heavy for a rotary setup; The rotary motors make almost no torque... As would be expected from and engine that displaces 1.3L...

Although there is only what, 50lbs difference from that and the alum. head v8 mentioned earlier, the RX7 is still a frigging light car.

If you did get it to work, it would sound nifty, but barely be able to get out of it's own way, unless you put some truly stupid gears in it.

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Report this Post11-13-2003 05:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TaurusThugSend a Private Message to TaurusThugDirect Link to This Post
someone should make a 4L Titanium v-12, then we wouldnt have to worry about weight or horsies. we could turbocharge that and be pushing around 600 hp and still be streatable or put a 2.6L v-10 indycar motor in. then we get the 20,000 rpm redline and the greatest sound EVER!!! a rotary sounds cool but is a bad idea

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Report this Post11-13-2003 09:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AusFieroClick Here to visit AusFiero's HomePageSend a Private Message to AusFieroDirect Link to This Post
Rotaries can kick ass if you don't mind the noise. Is quite a few of them over here running 700 to 1000 HP and running 7s on the strip. Don't underestimate the sewing machine.

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Report this Post11-13-2003 10:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Smooth 88coupeSend a Private Message to Smooth 88coupeDirect Link to This Post
I do agree that not all rotary engines can give 30,000RPM but some can. My friend still thought of the idea and I was wondering if it could/has been done before. I still think that if you can get the right gears and the right engine you MIGHT be able to have an engine with good torque and HP. One that is off the line fast and has good acceleration. Not that it would be cheap. An engine that would red line at around 11,000-15,000 RPM would be nice enough for me.
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Report this Post11-13-2003 11:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacksheepSend a Private Message to BlacksheepDirect Link to This Post
i too thought about putting a rotary engine in my fiero, but gave that idea up because it would take too much effort to do and i wanted an easier swap, but i do think it would be cool. too expencive for me tho, maybe once i win the lottery although i think then i would get the engine mentioned above.

EDIT: i cut the first part of this post as i decided to post it seperate as it really had nothing to do with this post.

[This message has been edited by Blacksheep (edited 11-14-2003).]

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Report this Post11-14-2003 02:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for virii01Send a Private Message to virii01Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Smooth 88coupe:

I do agree that not all rotary engines can give 30,000RPM but some can.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that none can. Do you have any sources of rotary motors running anywhere close to 30k RPM?

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malacite
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Report this Post11-14-2003 12:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for malaciteSend a Private Message to malaciteDirect Link to This Post
rotarys are pretty f4riggin awesome but i wouldn't go sticking one in a fiero. (i think the 3800 should ride in the back of a fiero) if i had a bad ass rotary sitting around i'd go ahead and shove it into a miata.

now there's a swap.

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Report this Post11-14-2003 01:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Paul PrinceSend a Private Message to Paul PrinceDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by virii01:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that none can. Do you have any sources of rotary motors running anywhere close to 30k RPM?

I mean I know they can rev, but 30,000 rpm? What gear do they run 9.50? If they used fuel injectors there would not be enough time for the injectors to pulse. I'm from Missouri....show me....Paul

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ThaFieroMunk
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Report this Post11-14-2003 02:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ThaFieroMunkSend a Private Message to ThaFieroMunkDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by malacite:

rotarys are pretty f4riggin awesome but i wouldn't go sticking one in a fiero. (i think the 3800 should ride in the back of a fiero) if i had a bad ass rotary sitting around i'd go ahead and shove it into a miata.

now there's a swap.

Yea a rotary in a Miata would make more sense.

I think a rotary in a Fiero would take too much engineering. In an RX-7 the setup is FR so you would have to figure out not only which way to mount the engine but also how to hook up a FWD tranny to it. I'm sure there are tons of issues of being able to fit the engine in the bay. You would probably have to strip the entire engine bay in the Fiero and start from scratch. Thats a lot of time/money. I'd still rather invest that money in something that I know is more promising.

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Report this Post11-14-2003 05:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 87FastbackHartz14Send a Private Message to 87FastbackHartz14Direct Link to This Post
The rotary engine needs to stay in the RX-7. Lightweight, front/midship RWD engine layout, the whole package works together. The motor doesn't have much torque and suffers from very detrimental cooling problems. Then apex seals like to go. It's really pointless to spend all the time and money to build up a rotary with beefier apex seals, mess with porting, ditch the stock twins (the manifold is probably already cracked from all the heat) and throw on a laggy single turbo, in a car that needs some thrust down low to get it moving. I LOVE RX-7s, and I am fascinated by rotary engines, but they are not a good match for the Fiero. Buy an FD RX-7, get that apex seal, the port job, the big single slug, and have a blast with an awesome all around car. The same effect would be achieved with a 3800SC or a 350 SBC in a Fiero. Stick with what works, it works for a reason!

Course all the stuff I just said could be totally wrong, but that's just my 2 cents!

EDIT: I didn't know that the 787B was a 4ROTOR!!! Oh snap! That is my favorite car to drive in GT3.

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[This message has been edited by 87FastbackHartz14 (edited 11-14-2003).]

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iced_theater
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Report this Post11-14-2003 06:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for iced_theaterSend a Private Message to iced_theaterDirect Link to This Post
The RX-7 doesn't way much less than a Fiero does. The first generation weighed anywhere between 2350lbs-2600lbs. The second generation weighed between 2600-3100lbs for the convertible. And the 3rd generation got lighter to around 2800lbs.....They also have good power,
1st generation 100hp 105ft lbs torque
2nd generation 146NA-182Turbo hp 135ft lbs
3rd generation 255TurboHP 217ft lbs torque
I'd love to also own a RX-7....Just as soon as I win that lottery
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Report this Post11-14-2003 09:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Direct Link to This Post
30,000 RPM for an RX7 rotary engine? I don't think so. The only rotary engine I know of with that kind of speed is the Space Shuttle Fuel Turbopump. It would probably fit in the engine bay of the Fiero, and generates 76,000 horsepower! imagine the 0 to 60 times

Engine Characteristics (Fuel Turbopump)

Propellant: Liquid hydrogen
Speed: 36,200 rpm
Discharge pressure (max): 6,450 psi
Flow: 164 lb/sec (17,600 gpm)
Shaft horsepower: 76,000 hp
Turbine inlet temperature: 2,000º R
Service life: 60 missions
Design life: 240 missions

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JazzMan
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Report this Post11-14-2003 09:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManDirect Link to This Post
Is that turbopump a rotary, as in Wankel? Or is it essentially a rocket fired through a turbo which in turn runs a pump?

JazzMan

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Report this Post11-14-2003 10:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Direct Link to This Post
JazzMan, it's more like the latter, it uses hot gas from the burning Hydrogen to drive a turbine which runs the pump. The 76,000 HP is legit because it can drain a half million gallon tank in 8 minutes flat
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Report this Post11-14-2003 10:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTDirect Link to This Post
In a wankle engine the rotor only spins at one third of the fly wheel speed. The rotor has three comprssion cycles per revolution, so the fly wheel is geared up at a ratio of one (rotor) to three(flywheel). So at 30,000RPM (on a two rotor wankle) the fuel and spark plugs fire at the same speed as a 10,000RPM V6. But I dont think any rotory can spin at 30,000RPM that is just not realistic.
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Report this Post11-15-2003 01:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for filthyscarecrowSend a Private Message to filthyscarecrowDirect Link to This Post

here's your 30k rpm wankel it's from an RC airplane. (practical range ends at 18K though)

wanna talk HP/L on this one? 2593.9 HP per liter. i'd like to see a civic match THAT!

[This message has been edited by filthyscarecrow (edited 11-15-2003).]

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Report this Post11-15-2003 01:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JCWSend a Private Message to JCWDirect Link to This Post
Rotaries are light, powerful engines with a few significant disadvantages. Rotaries share some unfortunate qualities with 2 stroke piston engines, namely poor emissions and poor fuel economy. There was a time when it was accepted that the rotaries days were numbered with increasing emissions controls. This was all before Mazda developed the Renesis rotary for the new RX-8. This engine practically redefines the combustion process. I won't go into the details, but Mazda has a nice write up and flash presentation on their website. Basically, the Renesis develops the same hp from a NA 1.3 as the RX-7 made from a twin turbo 1.3. As for feasibility in a Fiero, rotaries are remarkably easy to package. Unfortunately, one normally has to have the engine sent off to a specialist for a rebuild. But removal and installation is a snap.

It's kind of neat that this thread popped up only a week after I test drove the new RX-8. The RX-8 is one heck of a driver's car. The clutch/transmission combo is simply amazing. While downshifting I could feel each individual cone of the syncronizer engage! Talk about feel!

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Will
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Report this Post11-15-2003 10:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post
Turbine engines turn 30,000 RPM easily, but an automotive rotary won't make it.

The Navy's T34 engine (PT6A-25) turns over 30,000 RPM on the output turbine. The transmission gears it down to 2200 RPM for the prop. 550 HP and 1300 ftlbs of torque.

 
quote
. This engine practically redefines the combustion process. I won't go into the details, but Mazda has a nice write up and flash presentation on their website. Basically, the Renesis develops the same hp from a NA 1.3 as the RX-7 made from a twin turbo 1.3

You sure about that? Look at the recent recalls. It's not as powerful as initally claimed. The Renesis is evolutionary, not revolutionary. It just uses a side exhaust port instead of a peripheral exhaust port.

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'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow

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RotrexFiero
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Report this Post11-15-2003 11:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RotrexFieroClick Here to visit RotrexFiero's HomePageSend a Private Message to RotrexFieroDirect Link to This Post
I heard that Mazda over rated the HP on the RX8 and it only has around 200hp. Anyone have dyno numbers on the RX8 or 1/4 miles times.
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JCW
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Report this Post11-15-2003 12:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JCWSend a Private Message to JCWDirect Link to This Post
The first few months of production RX-8's came with slightly detuned parameters. These chips yielded 238 hp. Since then they have played around with the fueling to yield the originally advertised 250 hp.
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