Just a warning so other Fiero owners don't get burned like I just did.

I took my Fiero over to Frederich's Automotive and Service Center on Louisburg Rd. in Raleigh, NC last Thurs. to have them replace the forward exhaust manifold. I was quoted $220, for 3 hours labor and shop supplies. On Friday they tell me it won't be ready until Monday because they broke a bolt, and it'll be an extra hour's labor to remove the broken bolt. (I was informed about 1hr for a broken bolt in advance).

So, today, I go by, because by 4 PM I still haven't heard from them. They STILL haven't gotten the bolt out. They now tell me they have to drop the cradle to get to the bolt to drill it out and it while they couldn't give me an exact estimate, said it could cost up to $700 total by the time they were done.

So, I'm picking the car up tomorrow, put back together, minus the broken bolt, and I'll end up having to pull the head myself to get the bolt fixed later. I don't even know if the car is going to be driveable with it missing that bolt.

Oh, and then the guy in the office (not the mechanic) says, "That's why they stopped making those things." He then added that he had 2 for sale and wanted to know if I was interested.

Spread the word to everyone you know!!!

DO NOT DO BUISNESS WITH FREDERICH'S AUTOMOTIVE IN RALEIGH NC!!!

------------------
You know you're an engineer when you have no life and can prove it mathematically.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 09-08-2003).]

"That's why they stopped making those things"??? C'mon!

Thanks for the heads up.

they break your car and want you to pay for it, and then have the nerve to make a snide comment.

hmmmm, there are plenty of other cars on the road that I'm sure would have a few siezed bolts that could break while doing a repair, but does anything get said about them, not to mention the fact that the exhaust manifold had nothing to do with cancelling the fiero

If you got a written quote, I believe they can't charge you for more than 50% above that legally... Might want to check that out.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: "That's why they stopped making those things." He then added that he had 2 for sale and wanted to know if I was interested.

Obviously with THAT attitude, he'll be practically GIVING AWAY the 2 Fieros he has. But I bet he'll have a very different attitude when he's trying to sell his cars.

Everyone in the area should stop by (while not driving a Fiero), and look at the cars he has for sale. Then give him the same crap he and so many others have been spouting about how bad the Fieros were and offer him $100 for BOTH.

Hey, someone may get a great deal!

------------------

3.4L S/C 87 GT www.fierosound.com
2002/2003 World of Wheels Winner &
Multiple IASCA Stereo Award Winner

No, this joker wants $1500 for a parts car. Fieros are POSes according to him, but apparently his junk is priceless.

Oh, and did I metion RFTH is in less than 2 weeks? I have no idea if the car is gonna be roadworthy when I pick it up, and I don't have any time off between now and then to pull the head and get it fixed properly. I'm so ticked off I can't even see straight.

So, do I need to drop/tilt the cradle to pull the head?

------------------
Boycott Frederich's Automotive in Raleigh, NC

Broken bolt isent that big of a deal. Mine is missing the bottom right bolt on the rear manifold. Dosent leak with new gaskets Should last till you have the time to do a proper job. No you can remove the head with the engine in the car.

------------------
85 GT 4 speed 2.8L auto X'er

You might not have to remove the head. If you're good with an "easy out", first try swinging the rear of the cradle down. Remove the decklid. You'd be suprised how much more room this will give you to work. The guy wanted the drop the cradle because he doesn't know s**t about Fieros (that's obvious). He made the comment because he was probably embarrassed about not being able to fix it. It's easier to insult someone than admit you don't know how to do the job.

Good luck. If you need more instructions about swinging the cradle, we'll post them.

Just my opinion here, but having done maint work in a Chemical plant for the first 14 years of my career I have no use for an easy out.
When I got my car it had several broken manifold bolts. I ended up just pulling both heads (didn't drop the cradle) drilling the bolts out and retapping the holes. Took the oppurtunity to also go ahead and send them out and have them freshened up.
Sorry to hear you had a bad experience with the shop, sounds to me like they are more in the business of screwing people than fixing cars.

What gets me is 3 of my very good friends have used his shop for years and have nothing but rave reviews. I wouldn't trust my Fiero to a garage without checking into them first. They quoted me 3 hours labor to swap the manifold, assuming no broken bolts, and 1 hour labor per broken bolt if any break. Well, now they tell me it's gonna cost a lot more because the bolt is hard to get to? Um, how many bolts on ANY car are easy to get to with a drill if you break one off? On top of that, they ask me if I really want the heat shield put back on... Well DUH!!

I'm going to argue that they shouldn't charge me the extra hour for the bolt because they didn't fix the bolt. In the mechanic's defense, he did spend about 3 hours on it. He welded nuts to it to try to get a wrench on it, and ended up breaking it off 4 different times. He even showed me other broken bolts from other cars he'd gotten out the same way and the broken, welded nuts he used on my car.

He said they soaked the bolt in PB Blaster over the weekend, too. This is where I'm going to say, USE LIQUID WRENCH!! I tried PB Blaster on the rear manifold, and the bolts wouldn't budge. I used Liquid Wrench and they all came out easily.

Anyway, I'm supposed to pick the car up this afternoon, with everything back together minus the broken bolt. Hopefully it won't leak, or at least not too bad. I can't see missing RFTH because of this.

Oh, and this was quoted as a 3 hour job. They've had my car since Thursday morning.

I should have taken my own advice. NO ONE works on my Fiero but ME (and maybe a trusted friend or two)*. I should have just taken it to Ed Parks...

------------------
Boycott Frederich's Automotive in Raleigh, NC

Okay, I can see that you are trying to make RFTH. Can you still see part of the stud? If so, pull the entire manifold off and there's a set of pliers commonly called "parrot jaw pliers". When you clamp onto a bolt or stud with these, the more you try and loosen the bolt the more they bite into it! I have a set I bought through SnapOn and they have NEVER failed me for removing difficult studs or bolts. Hell, at that point, remove them all and replace them with Saturn studs so you know everything is new. You should be able to do this job on the car, and I'll loan you the tool if you PROMISE to return it. (I would hate to have to hunt you down ..... )

Nothing left to clamp onto? A right-angle drill and some EasyOuts should remove the broken stud. Use a titanium 1/8 drill bit and go right into the stud, then use an EasyOut to remove the stud. You should be able to do this job on the car.

Still not having any luck? I have a set of 2.8 heads that I sent out and had all rebuilt. I ran them for around 3k miles and then the rod decided to make a jailbreak out the side of the block. The heads are from my '88 Formula, and are still bolted on the engine to prevent warping. They have been sitting this way, lightly covered, stored indoors, for the past 5 years. I think I even have an unopened FelPro gasket set needed to install the heads. Make me a reasonable offer if you want to go this route.

PM or email me if you need me.

------------------

The ONLY time I take my Formula to a garage is to get an alignment. Even if I had a flat I would take the tire in to get fixed, because they like to lift it up using gas tank, coolant tubes, oil pan.
Also a lot of these garages don't like them because they can't just order parts from GM if they break something......Paul

Wow, Boom, THANKS!! I'm picking the car up this afternoon, with the broken bolt, so I'll see what I have to deal with. If it's not leaking, I'm gonna leave it as is at least until after RFTH. If it's too bad to drive, then I'll see what I need to do. I know the bolt is broken off flush. He tried several times to weld a nut onto the bolt to get it out, and each time it broke off closer and closer to the head. It's completely flush now. My only option is drilling. I'll try to do it on the car, as you suggest and go from there.

If I have to pull the head, I'll just take it to a machine shop and have them drill it out and either helicoil or retap the thread.

Oh, and all the hardware was replaced with a stud kit from Rodney. Mama didn't raise no fool.

I think you are being a little unfair to the shop. Many of use have broken a rear stud. It almost happens every other time or so. Now they quoted you a price if that did not happen but it did. If the stud broke at the level of the head then it needs to be drilled out. That is next to impossible with the engine in place. So they would have to drop the engine. What do you expect them to do eat the time to do that because the 20 year old stud broke during the removal? Stuff happens when you work on cars. I worked as a mechanic so I know.

------------------

Red 88 GT T-Top 3800 INTERCOOLED SUPERCHARGED
White 88 GT Stock
Please give me a rating if you appreciate my contribution.
History of Skitimes Car UPDATED 8-11-03

I'll grant you that, Ski. It does happen. However, I was quoted a price that stipulated 1 hour labor per broken bolt. It's not really my problem how hard the bolt is to get out. If they quote a 3 hour job and finish it in 2, do you think I'll get a discount on labor? No. That's why there are book values listing the standard amount of labor for a job.

Also, as Boomstastic mentioned, it can be removed without dropping the cradle if you use a right angle drill. It's also not my concern that they don't have the proper tools to do the job. But because they don't have a specific tool, they want to charge me an extra $500 to remove 1 broken bolt.

My dissatisfaction goes beyond just a broken bolt. This whole fiasco took 6 days, and it was supposed to be a 3 hour job. You can't tell me they spent 32 hours of labor on this car (assuming 1 mechanic for 8 hrs/day for 4 business days). The snide remarks were way out of line regardless of the quality of the job. And to top it all off, they may have ruined my battery because they were careless and ran it down.

I've worked as a mechanic. My grandfather used to own a dealership. I know what good customer service is and I expect it.

I will concede that my emotions are running high and I may be overreacting. But when a $220/3 hour job becomes a $700/1 week job, I get upset. When I have to pay almost $300 for said $220 job, and still have to redo it myself, I get upset.

And rightly so.

Well, anyone reading this take it for what it is. This is my opinion concerning my experiences. Consider it a warning, or if you think I've overreacted, then use your own judgement.

Thanks for the input, Ski.

i know all about that... not from me. but i saw this 86se sitting at the dealership in rear by the shop... kept seeing it and seeing it. well i stopped one day and asked the main guy in the shop... i asked him if it was going to be forsale but he said some lady had it and wouldnt pay the bill... well i thought maybe i could get a hold of the lady pay her bill and take the car. so i asked what happened.

He told me they did brakes, reseal the heads, and spark plugs. well i guess they broke off 2 - 4 of the sparkplugs. so they had to go about to get that out and her bill was $2,000!!!!!! i told him well since u guys broke them out?, wouldn't she not have to pay for ur misshap... he ended up not talking then. i asked what they were gonna do. he said they might try getting the title from her through court then sell it for a little more than they put into it. i told him he wouldnt get that much and walked out...

Soaper

Well just to prove that it happens to all of us sometimes:

I also have a 1986 Trans Am. One day while I was driving it, it just quit. I walked to a house about a half mile up the road and made a telephone call.(I had left my cellular telephone in another car.) When I arrived back, I tried it again and it started and ran fine.

Okay so it can be one of only a few things, right? I decide rather than diagnosing it myself, that I'll take it to a local garage that I frequented and have them diagnose and repair it.

They say it needs a new electronic ignition. I pay them to put it on.

The next day, it gets hot and quits again(you never could tell when it was going to quit.)

This time I tow it back to them. They scratch their heads. I told them it could be the timing chain but they say "Naw, we done checked thu' timin'"

So I say "Fuel pump perhaps?"

They say they will check the fuel pump output when hot. They install a fuel pump and say they ran it for an hour and it never quit.

The next day when I drive it, it quits again. I wait for it to cool and take it back to them, where they beging to get upset with ME because they don't know what they are doing.

I ended up leaving, after a comment of "It's an 86, you should just junk it." Why did they not just FIX it? I did not want to cause a scene so I drove off. My wallet was now $350,00 lighter with parts that the car did not need.(I did express my displeasure with them before leaving, though.)

Well my good friend is getting divorced and needs some money so I tell him to come and see if he can get the car running.

He comes and does the simple act of putting a timing light to it. It is a good bit out of time.

We open the timing chain cover, and the chain is almost falling off of the sprockets. There are several teeth sheared off of the top sprocket.

We put a new timing chain on it and now it runs fine. There is no way they could have checked the timing. It would have been evident to them if they would have. They were just too lazy to put a timing chain on the car(I know theses people, trust me.)

I'm a nice guy, but it took every fabric of my being to keep from going back down there and saying |Jim Cary impression from "The Mask." "HOLD ON TO YOUR LUG NUTS, BOYS IT'S TIME FOR AN OVERHAUL!: Those of you that remember the scene in the movie will know what I am talking about.

The story became a little long, but I just wanted you to know that it happens to the best of us.

-FF

The key here is to learn. Ask them next time what happens in the worst case scenario. Ask them to tell you what they intend to do during the repair. I was on the road with brake problems and stopped off at Midas to have the e-brake cable re-attached at both calipers. They told me 4 hours because they would have to remove the fender wells

I always leave instructions with new mechanics that I want to be called if something goes unexpected and that they need my permission to continue. With my regular mechanic, I don't need to worry.

By the way, shameless plug: K&S Repair, Abbottsford BC. Best damn mechanic I ever met. Fiero friendly. Ask for Ken.

------------------
Trevor Hughes


www.FieroGroupBuy.tk Group Buys on all the best products!

It does. After my emotions settled down, I am less upset about the broken bolt. It does happen. And I guess I can't really blame them for the huge repair bill, if I'd let them pull the engine to fix it. But, as I tear into the car to fix it myself, here's what I find...

I gave them a stud kit from Rodney to use. They used 3 of them, and either kept or threw away the rest.

I gave them some POR15 Fireseal 2000 (made to seal cracked exhaust manifolds), to put around the flange with the broken bolt, in hopes that it would seal better. They didn't use it, and I didn't get it back.

They completed the job with the broken bolt, in hopes that it might work ok as is. It leaks like crazy, and now I found out why. The gasket on the flange with the broken bolt isn't even over the port! One side of the gasket is about 1/2" off. The bolt hole in the gasket is fully outside the exhaust flange. Part of the port hole on the gasket is outside the manifold, so that's causing the HUGE leak.

Apparently, when I didn't agree to the $700 repair job, they just did a half-a$$ed job slapping it back together. Combine that with running the battery down and the smart mouth on Donovan, well, the broken bolt is minor by comparison.