I've been having a heck of a time dealing with Centerforce customer support lately, and I'm curious if I'm the only one.
I put in a dual friction clutch along with my 3.4 last summer. I did all the necessary steps (resurface flywheel, broke it in about 800-1000 city miles, etc.) and didn't have any causal parts like oil contamination or extreme abuse. When showing off the torque of the 3.4 with a buddy in the car, I put it in second at low speed (2 or 3 mph) and stomped the throttle after letting the clutch pedal out, and the clutch slipped bad, bad enough to ruin the flywheel and pressure plate from heat damage.
I sent the clutch back to centerforce to get warrantied, but after testing they say there is nothing wrong with the clutch. It has the correct disk thickness and static pressure (which they wouldn't tell me what it tested at, just that it was within spec). Even though there are NO signs of abuse (proper hydraulic operation, no sidestepping, no oil contamination)...they won't warranty the clutch. The best they can do is 100 bucks to reline the disk and send me a new pressure plate.
I made a deal to get the better pressure plate that comes in the new V8 archie kit (with the ball bearing design...but still no actual force he could tell me, just that it is slightly better), but I'm really hesitant to deal with these guys anymore as I'll now have 450 bucks into the clutch PLUS the flywheel, which may be reusable, but I doubt it.
The tech support guy keeps claiming the ONLY thing that could have caused this, since all the mechanical aspects check out, is customer usage. I have never had a problem driving a stick (all my cars are sticks), and the stock clutches always held up fine, so I'm almost upset that he'd accuse me of driving the car wrong or not breaking the clutch in properly. I'm thoroughly convinced this is a problem with either the pressure plate or disk lining, but have no way to support my claim because it passed their tests (the tests that he won't tell me any numbers for). He also claims this same clutch satisfied Archie's requirements for 6 years with "no problems under 400 horsepower"...further supporting my claim that this clutch shouldn't have failed for me and something is wrong with it.
Should I just cut my losses or is this a fluke with customer support AND part quality?
Has anybody else had such a bad experience with Centerforce, or the opposite?
Anybody have any recommendations for higher performance clutches that they've used with good experiences, such as the spec clutches?
I'm getting really stressed out on this, and could use any info/suggestions you guys and gals can provide. Thanks.
------------------ Bryce
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01:38 PM
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avengador1 Member
Posts: 35468 From: Orlando, Florida Registered: Oct 2001
When you had your flywheel resurfaced how much did they take off? If they took too much off you might have to shim it out so the pressure plate can disengage properly or the clutch disk will wear out prematurely.
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03:58 PM
tesmith66 Member
Posts: 7355 From: Jerseyville, IL Registered: Sep 2001
When you had your flywheel resurfaced how much did they take off? If they took too much off you might have to shim it out so the pressure plate can disengage properly or the clutch disk will wear out prematurely.
But that would make it not DISengage fully, making it hard to put in gear and shift. It wouldn't slip in that situation.
Several people have come on the forum with slipping Centerforces. A lot of guys and gals in the Mustang and Camaro world say they are junk.
I have a SPEC Stage III clutch with 6 puck sprung hub. I'm putting it behind a "warm" 350 (maybe 350 ft-lbs torque). I will report my experiences to the forum whenever I get it going.
I'm runnning a Stage I C/F clutch on my slightly worked 2.8 with no problems at all. I can break 'em lose in 1st, shifting into 2nd, and when conditions are just right, somtimes into 3rd. I'm running 215/60/15 Yokohama tires. Sounds like you clutch was bad from the factory.
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04:36 PM
Tina Member
Posts: 2858 From: At an elevation of 8564 feet. Registered: Nov 2000
Anybody have any recommendations for higher performance clutches that they've used with good experiences, such as the spec clutches?
So let me get this straight, you currently running a 3.4 with a Centerforce, right? (I am assuming it is the Archie one, only because you mentioned something in your talks with Centerforce) Anyways, it seems strange to me why it would not hold. I had the chance a while back to drive a 3.4 (stock clutch replacement)...It held...no problems.
As far as recommendations for other clutches I had a chance to test.
Centerforce = good Had Archie's version for two years in my V-8's, never any problem. Well until it got soaked with oil.(trans failure)
Spec = better Got a chance to drive Daves ZZ430, great clutch, tons of holding power, short pedal travel, not much effort needed to depress... (Plus i've been in the car with Dave driving,...he ain't easy on that thing one bit, i've it can survive him..... )
Quartermaster = best (Well so far) Now the reason I rate the Quartermaster higher than the Spec is that I believe that this clutch simple can hold more horsies. I ran this clutch with my 383 (Not slightly built,that thing is built,darn thing won't even run on pump gas anymore. (110 octane or it isn't happy) And the clutch (actually I should say set-up, because it is a dual disc set up)gave me no problems whatsoever, no matter what.
Downside = cost (you looking at around a grand) Driveability = does not feel like a street clutch anymore, nor are you going to get away with things you did to a street clutch. Durability, or length of clutch life reduced compared to street ones.
Hope this helps
Tina
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06:12 PM
Rare87GT Member
Posts: 5087 From: Wichita, KS USA Registered: Oct 2001
Ive gone almost 10,000 miles on my 3.4L with a centerforce dual friction clutch. It grabs very well and does not slip at all. I am very happy with it and I don't notice any problems. I have missed one gear in the car the whole time and that was 3rd gear racing it Not bad for learning how to drive a manual last year with my 87GT. It should have held up. I was pulling 2.0 60 fts with a 15 second pass.
I *had* the standard Fiero V6 dual friction clutch. I am upgrading to the archie style pressure plate and a new disk (they are supposed to use the same disk for all the fiero centerforce clutches)...for 125 bucks.
The 3.4 is completely stock with exception of the Fiero plenum and manifolds.
I'm using 245/40/17 Kumho Ecsta 712s on the rear.
Thanks for the suggestions so far, I'd like all the input I can get!
Bryce 88 GT
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07:13 PM
avengador1 Member
Posts: 35468 From: Orlando, Florida Registered: Oct 2001
If you don't disengage the clutch properly it will rub(when you try to disengage it), if it rubs it will wear and might even burn out, glaze, or heat check the flywheel. Since our clutch system is hydraulic and non adjustable this spacing is critical to proper clutch function. Rapid wear will cause slip. There is a reason they sell shims for the flywheel, this is it. I don't mean to offend or irritate, Im just trying to help.
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08:54 PM
FieroMaster88 Member
Posts: 7680 From: Mattawan, MI Registered: Nov 2000
I have the Centerforce dual friction clutch on my 3.2L. It is the biggest POS clutch I've ever used. I got it because it was supposed to be "better", but my autozone clutch held better. I have the V8 archie clutch, and it cant hold the 3.2L V6. And this is without the nitrous. Before I could chirp 2nd (with the autozone clutch), the centerforce just slips . I did everything correctly too, and allowed 1000 miles of break in period and it just doesnt hold. So if I were you I would go with something different. You could get the clutch back from Centerforce and sell it. I'm going with a clutch from Clutchnet. I'm told they are really good.
------------------ James Essar 88 Coupe 3.2L V6 With NX Nitrous
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08:55 PM
StansGT Member
Posts: 914 From: Schoolcraft MI, USA Registered: Jul 2001
I have had the same issue exactly, but my motor is the 3.8SC, there answer was very similar, I think they cant come up with a good clutch for us "metalic perhaps" so they just fix it once,(useing the organic on both sides) and screw us over saying its our faults, if they slip again.
Email me If you want to try linking a few cases together so that we can get our money back, to buy a better clutch! stanhoekstra@yahoo.com
------------------ 02' 3800SC Poly, Koni, Enkei
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08:59 PM
cadero2dmax Member
Posts: 1266 From: Brighton, CO Registered: Oct 2001
But to "endorse" Centerforce. I ran a CF dual friction in my Q4 racecar for years, and Greg is continuing to use it to this day. Has served that car well in (mostly) autocrossing, road racing at Hallett and Phoenix, with an occasional blast up the 1/4 (only to practice for Pro Solo starts ).
I currently have CF dual friction behind my 4.9. No problems to date.
I am installing a CF in my Dodge 24V Cummins (which hauls my trailer and playtoys around, plus a whole lotta other Fiero's too). This is my second CF clutch (this one was ruined by a bad pilot bearing after 24,000 miles) and not the clutch itself.
IMO, although maybe not the "best" clutch out there, the Centerforce is the best buy for the money, IMO (as Tina so eloquently put it!).
G
[This message has been edited by cadero2dmax (edited 11-21-2002).]
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09:03 PM
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DrDave Member
Posts: 333 From: Port Angeles, Wa. U.S.A. Registered: May 2001
I have the Centerforce dual friction clutch on my 3.2L. It is the biggest POS clutch I've ever used. I got it because it was supposed to be "better", but my autozone clutch held better. I have the V8 archie clutch, and it cant hold the 3.2L V6. And this is without the nitrous. Before I could chirp 2nd (with the autozone clutch), the centerforce just slips . I did everything correctly too, and allowed 1000 miles of break in period and it just doesnt hold. So if I were you I would go with something different. You could get the clutch back from Centerforce and sell it. I'm going with a clutch from Clutchnet. I'm told they are really good.
James, I hate to disappoint you. I tried a 'Cluchnet unit' hooked up with an almost dead 305..... 'slip' would be a mild word, POS!!!!. I now use a DF Centerforce(Archie) with a mild 350.... very smooth, have tried to get it to slip, been great for a year! Good Performance! So, I guess you say, "Now What?" Sandy Oh, and the rear tires are 275-40-17... about a foot wide. (this car is a large go-kart!)
[This message has been edited by cowans (edited 11-20-2002).]
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09:45 PM
Tina Member
Posts: 2858 From: At an elevation of 8564 feet. Registered: Nov 2000
I have an OEM replacement clutch from Trak Auto on my 3.4. No complaints at all, it was about $150.
The SPEC Stage III is $300 shipped to your door. It's pretty good but I'm not thrilled with it, Archie's Centerforce 502 clutch is smoother and basically like an OEM clutch--but the SPEC has better grip in exchange for its harsh engagement from a full stop. The solution is to rev a little higher: above 1400rpm it engages smoothly, but it takes practice for me to do this since I'm used to 1000rpm engagements. It has never slipped on me, but two other people who have driven it have somehow made it slip between gears. Maybe Tina can explain what she did.
I wonder about the deviations in the CF clutches because I have used 2 of them so far- both in 88 GT's with 5 speeds. Both with replaced/rebuilt hydraulics and one creeps forward if you think about letting the clutch up and the other starts to engage at the very top of travel. The latter is so bad, it feels like the clutch is worn out, but it has not slipped yet.
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11:52 PM
Nov 21st, 2002
AnimalGT Member
Posts: 1118 From: Chicago, IL Registered: Jul 2001
Has anyone tried the clutch from a 4x4 S-10 (87-88 w/ 2.8 & T-10, IIRC), in a Fiero? Under the advice of a fellow PFF member, whose name I don't remember, I compared this clutch to various Fiero clutches at AutoZone. I found that it should work, and seems to have a better pressure plate. The throwout bearing from the respective trans would be needed. Any ideas about this? Scott
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12:03 AM
Tina Member
Posts: 2858 From: At an elevation of 8564 feet. Registered: Nov 2000
I had the same problem at the track after replacing with CF, after troubleshooting the fault was in the clutch line, from the master cylinder to the slave cylinder. You push the pedal and the clutch is released, let off the pedal and the line had enough restriction not to allow the pressure plate engage quick enough, this didn't let the pressure plate do it's job.
When I got my flywheel resurfaced it didn't appear to have ever been resurfaced before, and it didn't have any problems with it. I have no reason to believe they removed very much material at all. That's a different story now, as I don't think I'll be able to machine enough material off the flywheel to get the hotspots out without ruining the flywheel. Perfectly good 88 Fiero flywheel down the drain because of a bad clutch...
Also, I've replaced my master and slave within the last 10k miles. The hydraulics worked fine with the old clutch, and show no symptoms of being messed up. The clutch engage/disengage point is a little less than halfway up from the floor (about 3/8 of the way from the floor).
It is beginning to sound like there is a big variance in performance/quality with the Centerforce Fiero clutches. I think I might call and talk to the manager/head of tech support and see what kind of pressure and travel range the test allows, and how they test it. I'll let you know what I find out, that is, if they will actually tell me something instead of treating me like an idiot again.
Bryce 88 GT
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07:46 AM
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StansGT Member
Posts: 914 From: Schoolcraft MI, USA Registered: Jul 2001
Provided that you don't go overboard with horsepower the LUK brand of clutch sold by Northern Auto is excellent. LUK was the clutch that GM originally used on the Fiero. I've owned Fieros with over 90K miles and the stock clutch was still working. This brand must be quality to last this long.
Bryce, Sorry the most help I can give you here is a bump, but I hope your work term is going well (aside from the troubles your car has been giving you) and c-ya when we get back up to school
I beat the living SH!T out of my S/C3800/getrag. The DF centerforce is the only clutch I've owned that DOESN'T slip. I love it. I drop it all the time, burning tires and all. I run it at the track hard at least 2 or 3 days a summer. It has about 17,000 miles on it already.
Good Luck with yours!
I had the same "slipping" problem with my old clutch and it turned out some idiot moved the clutch cruise switch out to far and it wasn't letting the pedal come all the way back!!! It wouldn't let all the fluid back in the reservior, therefore lightly "applying" the clutch. Of all the stupid fiero clutch problems with bent pedals and bad parts, an electrical switch was by far my last guess.
Good Luck,
MOBILE
------------------ Member MN Fieros Forever 1986 GT. Self Installed SC3800/getrag almost everything performance wise is modified/upgraded, inside and out. Over 10 years in Car Audio and Car Electronics Experiance P.S. GOT 19"s??(all the way around)
I have a v8 with Archie's centerforce clutch (about 400hp). My clutch was slipping when I had an Isuzu trans, but while I had the trans out installing the Getrag I roughed up the pressure plate and flywheel with a sandpaper disc on a die grinder. Now the clutch doesn't slip at all.
cowans - What Clutchnet disc were you running? I am using a six puck sprung hub disc and it is great. This is on my turbo 3.4l DOHC. Steve Hamm has used this same clutch on his turbo car when he was making 325 HP and 376 lb-ft (dyno proven). That was before the bigger turbo. I definitely would recommend this disc to anyone here.
cowans - What Clutchnet disc were you running? I am using a six puck sprung hub disc and it is great. This is on my turbo 3.4l DOHC. Steve Hamm has used this same clutch on his turbo car when he was making 325 HP and 376 lb-ft (dyno proven). That was before the bigger turbo. I definitely would recommend this disc to anyone here.
Matt
Matt, I'm sorry to say that the (Clutch-net)clutch I received was ordered through CK3 and was promised to proform with any SBC. It was such a POS, that last winter, upon removal, it found the garbage can, so, I don't have the part#'s. I looked around for the box, but, I guess I launched it too. Personally, it resembled a standard style clutch.... no 4 puck, etc! Sandy Maybe, I got 'snowed' by CK3...again!!!
[This message has been edited by cowans (edited 11-25-2002).]
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09:54 AM
Hank Member
Posts: 23 From: fleetwood,pa.usa Registered: Aug 2002
for me the centerforce = JUNK , put my foot in it at 100 mph and it would slip so bad you could smell it inside the car. when i called them - well lets just say thay were ASSHOLES. don't say i did somthing wrong, i bin working on race cars for 30 years and know how to install a clutch. i just installed a 2 disk with a alum. flywheel, what a difference in get up and gooooo. v8hank
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05:46 PM
Nov 26th, 2002
Nashco Member
Posts: 4144 From: Portland, OR Registered: Dec 2000
Well, the Centerforce guy said there was no way he was going to warranty my clutch, but he did kind of help me out. He let me upgrade to the Archie ball bearing flywheel and a rebuilt disk for what he says is cost. I'm pretty upset that I had to invest another 150 bucks into a clutch when I feel it was a problem with the clutch.
I did speak with a manager yesterday to see if he would talk with the employee I dealt with and find out why I was treated the way I was. He didn't seem too understanding, but he at least listened and acknowledged that I may have gotten some misinformation along the way.
I guess now I'll know how the Archie clutch works compared to the V6 setup.
Oh, for those interested, the Centerforce manager explained to me that until the new ball bearing pressure plate was created for archie recently, the same exact clutch kit was sold for archie's V8 as a normal V6 dual friction application uses.
Hank, I know how you feel; the manager explained to me that they don't care what your credentials are, experience and certification don't mean you can do a job right. It seems like Centerforce's policy is "the customer is guilty until proven innocent"...sucks to be me, I suppose.
Bryce 88 GT
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01:04 PM
Apr 23rd, 2003
StansGT Member
Posts: 914 From: Schoolcraft MI, USA Registered: Jul 2001
IF you read the writing on the centerforce clutch assembly, is says LUK right on it, so why is centerforce reworking a LuK clutch pack, when we can get the same thing from NAPA, with the new "archie ball bearing" design also? The only differnce is that "centerforce" used ther own part numbering system.. I guess its just like alot of companies these days, they just relabel and distribute, the things they cant produce..
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11:20 AM
Fieroking Member
Posts: 2150 From: Coeur D Alene Idaho USA Registered: Jun 2002
)
Not bad for learning how to drive a manual last year with my 87GT. It should have held up. I was pulling 2.0 60 fts with a 15 second pass.
. I did everything correctly too, and allowed 1000 miles of break in period and it just doesnt hold. So if I were you I would go with something different. You could get the clutch back from Centerforce and sell it. 
