For all those that have or planing to use the 9-11/16" clutch from Chris west, be aware that there is a problem. This is not an out of the box and your ready to go install.

In my installation, series II 3800 SC w/ 5-speed Getrag, you WILL have the following problem.

This pressure plate has a ring of rivits about 3.5" from the center. These rivits will hit the transmittion case. As you look into the case there is a 4" round, smooth area, this is what it will hit. I belive that the carrage bearing is behind this area. This problem was found, of coarse, when everything was put back together.

This is what I did to slove this problem:
Simply, sand/grind down the rivits and or the area where there is interfearance. About 30 thousands or so.

Through other news groups, I have been told that Chris West is aware of this problem and has adjusted the thickness of "his" flywheels to prevent this problem. However, if you are just getting the clutch and pressure plate; he figures that we will find out that there is a problem sooner or later.

Chris, I know that you are on this fourm. Do you have anything to say for youself?

Jason

hmm..... 9-11, eh?

Brandon

and if you look at "Series II", you'll see that the Roman numerals bear a striking resemblance to the World Trade Center. Coincidence?

Did you try to address this with West Coast in private before bringing it here?

Chris West, 9 letters
West Coast, 9 letters
thickness, 9 letters
a problem, 9 letters
trans case, 9 letters

3+8+0+0 = 11
Supercharged has 11 letters
Buick Engine 11 letters
v6, v being the roman numeral for 5 + 6 = 11
installation, 11 letters
transmission, 11 letters
five speed, 11 letters

Chris has gotta something going with McLeod clutchs. so its probably a defect from the factory, things happen. i'm sure if you would've called Chris he would have taken care of it for you.

There are others who have called Chris on this. If there is a specific problem with a product that is being sold, it needs to be known. He is not tell his customers about this problem, so I am.

Jason

I think Jason is jus warning other potential customers of west coast. I 've about this also happening to others and apparantly Chris knew of the problem but has decided to keep quiet about it. It would have been relly nice to know of and potential problems before Jason or anyone else installed the clutch. I am sure its not a fun thing to have to take it apart again to fix somthing that could have been avoided to begin with. Jason s lucky he did it himself...what if he was paying someone to do it?

------------------
Earl Sessions
1985 Fiero w/ 1998 Supercharged 3.8 V-6
Best ET: 13.232 @ 101.24 mph

The problem IS NOT the clutch, the problem was that there was not enough material removed from the series 2 flywheel. Any more removed and it would render the flywheel a " one time use only ". And thank you very much for airing this out with everybody and not consulting us first.

We stand by everything we make as all our customers can vouch for, if you had a problem why didn't you call?

------------------
Technician, West Coast Fiero
www.cwestco.com
310-305-4111

Hey Jason!
Hope your setup doesn't blow, now that you buggered the rivits...
.030 off the flywheel could have been done locally for a small fee...

I've had 2 McLeod clutches 1 rubbed and the other didn't. One thing about using the McLeod or Centerforce for that matter is that you sometimes have too much clutch throw from the Fiero setup. I had to make a pedal stop to cut my throw down. At full pedal(stock) the TO bearing would drive the disk into the flywheel.

Let's get the whole story out here. When I ordered the clutch, I was told that he had two pressure plates on the shelf and needed the clutch disc. Originally I wanted to go with the Kevlar disc and was talked into the cindered iron. If it works out, I will have no problem with this part. I waited about 2 weeks for the clutch disc to ship, because "one had to be made". O.K. I understand that everything is not off the shelf, especially with these kinds of modifications.

I had called many times to discuss the status of my order and expected performance of the setup. At no time was I made aware that there is a problem with clearances. At no time was I given any options. You must have me confused with someone else having this problem.

I am aware that West Coast does strive to provide quality products. But, if there is a potential problem that would cause this much aggravation and extra labor, it MUST be know to the customer. If I had been told that there needs to be extra work done to the flywheel, transmission case, and/or the pressure plate, it would be another story.

The fact remains that the customer is not being made aware of the problem so they can make the proper modifications before it is too late.

In regards to the clutch throw, I currently have about 3/4". With the car up, it seems to be enough. I have bleed and bleed the clutch, and that's all I get. I don't know what it was with the Centerforce clutch.

BTW: Tomorrow I must pull everything apart for the third time to grind and sand some more.

Jason

*watching intently*...

As I said in the chat - slip a sheetmetal spacer between the engine and tranny

once again, are you going to call and resolve this, or continue to air it among the Fiero community?

------------------
Technician, West Coast Fiero
www.cwestco.com
310-305-4111

Sounds like Chris and WCF have taken care of this....

Perhaps if you spend your time *asking* questions about the design history and making of these parts, instead of grinding your axes in public, then there wouldn't be an issue...

Obviously this is a very special application, and unless you bought an entire package from WCF (and I am talking engine, tranny, and everything inside) then the fitiment cannot by deffenition be exactly guarenteed.

Chris, I'd toss in a sheet of paper with all your clutches that says 'Warning: may require .030 removed from your flywheel to make this all fit. Especially if you didn't buy our flywheel. Good luck, enjoy the *Supercharged* Fiero!!!)"

We're playing with exotic toys here, not everything is going to fit together like stock.

Best!
Ben.

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top Metalic Red
88 Formula, Silver
87 Coupe, Metalic Red
"Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
-Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

Wow,such customer service,ahem,Chris;how about the agreement that you'd made with me to riemburse me for the wrong parts that were sent in June,2000,AND that I'd returned to you by UPS shipment?($120.00)
Much less the clutch($375.00) that exploded after 3,000 freeway miles,oh,that's right,you told me it was my fault that the thing fell apart,shucks I forgot.
After several phone conversations,this posting is to be expected in the wake of such poor business practices.
Any Fiero owner should wisely consider my experience when sending $ to these people,as an ordinary clutch may well cost you over $600 in just parts before you're done!

[This message has been edited by lowCG (edited 10-23-2001).]

Oh, sh1t, not another dissatisfied customer clutch thread...

quote Originally posted by lowCG: [B]Much less the clutch($375.00) that exploded after 3,000 freeway miles [B]

sounds like a personal problem...or maybe you didn't read that their(WCF) more expensive clutches are not for daily drivers so of course they are gonna take a sh*t after three thousand miles of driving.

To West Coast Fieros. The issue is the engine had to come out more then one time because you guys didn't let Jason know about this potential problem. Calling you at this time isn't going to do anything. We now know the problem. And, calling you isn't going to get the car out of my garage. Calling you isn't going to help me while I'm under the car for the third time. Nobody is bitching about the product quality. It is the lack of informnation initally that has everyone pissed. AND, TIME IS MONEY. My time is also money as is Jasons. Get the picture??????

Well, its time for me to inform the general Fiero community of a real Chris West problem in my opinion besides clutch clearence problems.

These facts are well documented I am about to state.

I called West Coast Fieros on September 9th. I ordered 3 poly mounts, one 3800SC flywheel and one clutch and pressure plate. I asked very specifically if these parts were on the shelf ready to ship. Chris indicated the clutch and pressure plate needed to be “picked up” as in he would drive across town and get the thing. I very specifically requested shipping as follows:
Parts go out Tuesday ground shipping, Wednesday Blue label, Thursday ---- ????? Well lets say he insisted Thursday was not going to be a problem.

I waited until Thursday at 320pm my time (central) and called WCF. Chris answered. I ask 2 questions very specifically…… Did my parts ship…he said “no” ,,,, I then asked Do you have the parts…he said “no”. He then indicated but I have a voice mail light flashing and I bet it is the clutch guy telling me to come pick up the parts. Notice here he keeps saying he will pick up the parts….its important on this point.

Chris and I have some normal chat about flywheels since I had read about the .840 cut on F-Body flywheels. He them indicates that this is not enough for his pressure plates to clear the GETRAG trans. I asked what was he doing about this. He indicated that people would need to cut the transmission in the area of the problem, or cut the flywheel .030 and it would be a one time throw away use flywheel. OK, I thought…..how many of these are out there that people do not know about this problem.

Then I had my real problem with Chris. I canceled the other since 2 things. I asked him if I was charged for any of the items as of yet,,,,, he said “no”. I asked if the items would ship that day……he said “no”. I then canceled the order at 331pm Thursday. Now it gets interesting. Chris saids wait a minute. You hear this guy lean back in his chair and push the phone about a foot from his mouth and yell,,,,,, “Eric, you got any of those rasco parts back there??????????” you hear eric mumble something and Chris magically comes back to the phone and indicate these parts all the sudden appeared based on poor communication between him and eric. He then indicates “ball is in your court loyde, what you going to do?” I said I don’t play that game and canceled the order. Goodbye.

Well, that is pretty much the extent of that conversation that day. So guess what happens on 9/13 same day after the conversation. He bills my credit card for 899.21…
See entry below:

09/13/2001 CHECKCARD 0912 WEST COAST FIERO MARINA DEL RACA 1000000190130275 $899.21-

Then on Saturday 9/14 he decides to credit my account back minus $28.21…

09/14/2001 CHECKCARD 0913 WEST COAST FIERO MARINA DEL RACA 1000000190130276 $871.00

So I wait until Tuesday 9/18 to find out the total transaction history and check my phone log online to see the time table: Here it is.

Monday 9/10 called and placed order 1015am central
Thursday 9/13 called and canceled order that did not ship at 320pm central

Thursday 9/13 Chris bills me at 531pm central on my credit card.
Friday 9/14 Chris credits the card minus the $28.21

I called 9/25……that heated conversation was like this.

I was billed for shipping of clutch parts and canceling the order that was never prepared nor packaged.

Now I told ole Chris of this timeline and he about choked on how to explain this other than he had some more poor communication with eric and others in the shop on billing. I told him I was not going broke over the 28.21 and he was not going to get rich over 28.21 but he sure didn’t need to bill me 2 hours after our conversation for 899.21 when all he needed to bill was 28.21 since no parts ever got packaged or shipped. He even indicated I would be getting my 28.21 back. You know what. Never did.

Now about this clutch clearance issue. In the mean time of all this money and shipping problem I got to know a guy in El Paso Texas that wanted to sell all his 3800 stuff which included the WCF framed flywheel and McLeod Clutch and disc set in 9 11/16th . I ask Jeff, did Chris West ever email or call about the clearance issue he found with his products. Jeff indicated Chris never attempted to inform him.

You just cant make long stories short in emails when it effects a whole community of a very tight knit group of people.

Please don’t slam Jason for this error in WCF’s not advising folks somehow of this problem. Chris managed to finally tell me on the phone when I indicated I would just take a 3800 manual Camaro flywheel and cut it to .840 .

I even told Chris the old Amway theory: I will tell 10 people and those 10 will tell 10 more and on the cycle went for Amway anyway. He said he could care less how many I told. Well, maybe 10 people will read this.

More people would speak up about Chris and other bad vendors if it did not effect there onlook from others. Look at all the California posts that are positive for WCF. Theres something wrong with this picture.

It’s a shame customer service and good will is not number one in every aspect of life.

Well, that’s my 28.21 on this subject. Guess I will be black balled now.

Loyde

FastFieros,
I, for one, appreciate your post. In dealing with any Fiero vendor, I'm interested in both good and bad customer experiences. You appear to be trying to state the facts with as little of your own personal input as possible. Obviously I can't verify this - but I wouldn't be able to verify a glowing report either.

Bottom line. Thanks for your input. I take everyone's input and then make my own decisions about who I want to do business with.

WCF seems to have a lot of parts that I'm interested in buying. Perhaps I'll take this as a Caveat Emptor to make sure I ask pertinent questions in advance. I have to agree with Ben, though - these are custom parts for exotic applications (motor swaps, etc.) Unless WCF supplied all the pertinant parts, you can't expect it to be totally plug and play. Still, WCF should endeavour to inform their customers or at least make a disclaimer about compatibility.

As for the slow service - credit charges, etc. It's always good advice to keep a close check on any mail order charges. If there's a discrepancy, have Visa (or MC) check them out for fraud. Most vendors don't want a credit card company's lawyers on their back. This is in general, and not directed solely at WCF.

I must join in on this, (because I am in one of those moods).

I ordered a dog bone form wcf, probably about 2-3 months ago.
I paid by check.
I e-mailed wcf about 3weeks after mailing out check.
They responded that I needed to give them the measurement of my dogbone. They said it differs, as in some 87 GT's are different from some other 87 GT's.
I thought that was wierd, but I measured it and e-mailed him back, as I wondered would he have ever asked me if I didn't initiate.

They said they would start making it and I would get it by friday.

Well it has been about 2 months.

So in the mean time, as I read PFF, I see the wcf guys have time to do engine swaps in thier shop, design a turbo for the na 3800, go to junk yards and get parts for people, HIGHJACK ARCHIES POST'S, have parties, etc.

WHAT ABOUT MY F***ING DOG BONE. ????

I really think it has something to do with me living on the east coast. !!!!

Well I feel better now, that I got to share this.

For the people who will flame me for airing this in public, remember this, The man told me I would have it friday, they fabricate this part themselves, and I already paid for it. There is not a reason in the world I should not have my dogbone by now.

I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO KEEP CALLING, TO FIND OUT WHERE MY PART IS !!!!!! so dont flame me for this.
I have been very patient, as I am that type of person.

Do you really think I should have to call them constantly to get them to make their own product, when I see them having time to do many other things other then make my dogbone.

The main reason I wrote this, is for the people like me, who have been saving their pennies and are about to drop big money into their FIERO.

I have a list of goodies a mile long, (alot of which wcf sells), and I have the money to buy all of those goodies.

Now........... who to buy from ????

Peace,

Andrew

I'll go ahead and throw this in...

I'm in the process of buying a Fiero (finally), and have been here since...whenever my sig says...it's been a while.

I've met with a few prople from here, emailed with several people here, got into flame wars with at least one, and even visited Archie's shop (the ValHalla of Fierodom).

WCF keeps having the same problems here, with always the same excuses. Poor communication. Well, as another shop, let me tell you, WCF, that poor communication is THE #1 REASON for businesses going under.

It's not impossible to salvage your image here, but boy, it's a job I wouldn't want...
You'll need to do the next few things;

1) Don't get upset when someone "airs their laundry" here (especially if they've made every effort to contact you). This is a public forum, and we have interest in what goes on.

2) Quit your crap with Archie. State your case on your own website, and here when/if you offer a sale or new product, but NO ONE respects your constant badgering of Archie.

3) Clear out every unfinished concern you have with people here. Everyone who hasn't been taken care-of will COST YOU at least 10 more customers. I know at this point, I would never deal with you. And that's the point, IF you fix these people's concerns, maybe I'd reconsider.

4) COMMUNICATE. With this Chris fellow, with your customers, everyone...all the time...
I've learned LONG delays can be accepted if the customer only knows what the hell's going on. If you ignore them, you're doing them a dis-service. And you're doing yourself a dis-service, since your business IS your customers.

5) INTEGRITY. Don't EVER charge for a product that hasnt BEEN SHIPPED. This will save a LOT of headaches for everyone.

-----

You don't have to take my advice. You can make excuses and tell me why it's none of my business. But the fact of the matter is, a few people have stated you carry many items they want to buy, so if I can help you do business better, I'm helping everyone here.
One last piece of advice? NEVER get into a flame war here. That means don't launch some childish come-back attack on me.

I do wish you the best of luck. Laters.

------------------
Michael ~ triadtuning@hotmail.com
-----------------

Photoshop rendering of planned exterior modifications.

My only comment on top of TriAds is this... don't tell them:

quote once again, are you going to call and resolve this...

You pick up the damn phone yourself and make every attempt to contact them and resolve the issues. I know (as a business owner) that if a project is running behind, or there are problems, I definitely don't want to wait for my client to call me-'cause then they're pissed. If I preemptively get on the phone to explain the situation, and do what I can to get the issue resolved... they'll come back next time. If I don't fix it in the above manner, they certainly will go to someone else who offers the same services (even if they cost slightly more) just to avoid the poor service.

You may be a parts supplier/reseller, but you still need to be a part of the "service" industry. I too like the looks of many of your products, but based on how I've seen you act here on the forum- and based on numerous reviews of your non-local clientel... I think I'd be VERY hesitant working with you.

I, like TriAd, am not trying to flame you- only give you the outside perspective of another business owner & Fiero enthusiast. And I wish you the best of luck!

------------------

[This message has been edited by MinnGreenGT (edited 10-23-2001).]

It's a little comforting to know I was not the only one screwed over by WCF. All this time I thought it was only because I was Canadian. It's nice to know that WCF is not prejudice in who they screw.
It's also sad to know I am not the only one. You would hope that in such a small community such as ours that customer service would mean a little more.

Can you say "Outlaw"?

Listen....

If your really quiet...

You can hear Archie Giggling...............

JM

i was just about to order the poly trans mounts from wcf. oh boy now i am worried if i should. i may never get them or something. does any one know where i can get these mounts.
thanks
msaby

quote Originally posted by Slammed Fiero: Listen.... If your really quiet... You can hear Archie Giggling............... JM

[This message has been edited by TRiAD (edited 10-23-2001).]

quote Originally posted by Msaby: i was just about to order the poly trans mounts from wcf. oh boy now i am worried if i should. i may never get them or something. does any one know where i can get these mounts. thanks msaby

Well, I wanted go get the poly tranny mounts from WCF, but at $65 each, I decided to see what my options were. The Fiero Store has OEM style mounts for $25 each, but get this - I found them IN STOCK at my local Advance Auto for $9 each!! Sure, they're OEM style and not awesome high tech poly. But I can also replace them almost 7 times for the same money. Unless I start snapping mounts on a regular basis, I can't justify the expense. Now, it probably would be worth it on a high horsepower buildup - you be the judge.

Well, I wanted go get the poly tranny mounts from WCF, but at $65 each, I decided to see what my options were. The Fiero Store has OEM style mounts for $25 each, but get this - I found them IN STOCK at my local Advance Auto for $9 each!! Sure, they're OEM style and not awesome high tech poly. But I can also replace them almost 7 times for the same money. Unless I start snapping mounts on a regular basis, I can't justify the expense. Now, it probably would be worth it on a high horsepower buildup - you be the judge.

I am installing a v-8 nothing that i would consider high horsepower though. i just thought the mounts would hold up better than a rubber mount. thanks for the info.

quote Originally posted by Msaby: I am installing a v-8 nothing that i would consider high horsepower though. i just thought the mounts would hold up better than a rubber mount. thanks for the info.

I'd go with the Fiero Store's poly mounts for this. my $.02.

quote 5)INTEGRITY. Don't EVER charge for a product that hasnt BEEN SHIPPED. This will save a LOT of headaches for everyone.

The best advice I've heard on this topic.

Yes, I'm another potential customer who's read this.

Artherd: it's kinda like V8 Archie saying: this is a non-stock performance engine so it may not work properly. You'll have to adjust it yourself.

Now, I don't know ANYTHING about Archie's products, nor do I intend to have someone commenting on them, but you get the idea.

------------------

[This message has been edited by Voytek (edited 10-23-2001).]

I am not going to say anything else about West Coast, everyone else is doing a good job of that. I will tell you how I fixed the problem in my case. This was the intent of this thread, to inform.

Well all, I got the car on the road. Now here's what I can tell you:

My flywheel is from a 3800 Camaro machined down to 0.145" (as measured tonight). I ground down the rivits on the pressure plate a little more just for safety. Don't worry, these rivits have a big head (no additional comment). I also ground down the transmission housing where the rivits were hitting, about 3/16" to 1/4". There seems to be plenty of meat here.

In addition to this, I also discovered another petential problem. The center of the clutch disc (the metal boss cut to mate with the splines on the trany shaft) rubs against the shaft the the throw-out bearing rides on. To solve this problem, I simply ground down this part of the clutch disc about 1/8". This should not hurt anything.

What we have learned here is that no matter who you are dealing with, ask lots of questions and then double check the information given.

After talking with Chris West this afternoon, this is what I learned. "There has not been a problem with this setup in the 4-speed Munci and 5-speed Isuzu transmissions." According to Chris, he has sold only 12 of these 9 11/16" pressure plates and that he is not keeping track of the specific application of each unit.

Also, double check the I.D. of you throw-out bearings. I have a NSK that measures 1.185", the new one I recieved measures 1.250". I fealt that this was too much play, but I really don't know for sure. My old bearing was still in good shap, so it was reused.

As of now, Chris has agreed to notify all future customers that purchase this clutch of this potential problem and provided information on recommended flywheel thicknesses and/or additional precautions that must be taken.

Chris, it sounds like you have a lot of "cleaning' to do. You must take better care of your customers if you wish to be in business. I hope that you do, because the Fiero community needs people to research and develop the parts needed to provide the performance we want our fiero's to have. Please work on the business ethics and clean up all of your open issues.

Jason

quote Originally posted by TRiAD: I'd go with the Fiero Store's poly mounts for this. my $.02.

i was unaware that the fiero store had the poly trans mounts. do you have a web address.
thanks for the info
Msaby

I had that same problem with my throw-out bearing shaft. I ended up grinding off a little less than 1/4 inch off of that shaft due to play the engine may have and heat expansion that will happen. I haven't got the engine running yet, but will soon.

So far I hear of no rubbing due to the pressure plate, but Chris told me about this problem before I received the flywheel and he ground it down to the minimum for the application to work.

Chris seems to be very intent on pleasing the Fiero Community in my opinion. If he says he is going to do something it usually gets done from what I have seen. I don't believe that the long shipment problems are mainly due to him, but I could be wrong.

quote Originally posted by Msaby: i was unaware that the fiero store had the poly trans mounts. do you have a web address. thanks for the info Msaby

Oops, my bad. I mis-read Formula88s post...
They do have mounts, but I dunno if they're poly...You'll have to ask them...
Here's the info...

800-343-7648 www.fierostore.com