As many of you know, I've used a lot of the 4-cyl. 5 speed transmissions on my V-8 cars. In fact I've only had one Getrag transmission in my Personal cars thru the years. All the rest have been either 4 speeds or Isuzu's. Over the last several months, A few people have claimed that the Getrag can't handle the V-8 power. Many also know that my Finale uses that 4 cylinder 5-speed also. Yes, the car that I drove 0 to 100 MPH no less than 20 times at Bob's last weekend has a wimpy little Isuzu 5-speed behind that V-8.
Now I'll tell you a little more about that car. When we put the car together last Summer (finishing it just before the NIFE FieroRama show) we used a transmission out of a wrecked 150K 87 Fiero Coupe. The transmission was not re-built or anything. We cleaned it and painted it and put it in the car. We didn't even put oil in the transmission until we were ready to test drive it just before the NIFE show. After putting oil in it we found a crack in the transmission case, a little oil was running out of the crack under the paint and dripping on the floor. The crack in the case was obviously caused by the accident that had totaled the car that the transmission came out of. We didn't have time to R&R the transmission before the FieroRama show and I've been driving it every since. Yes, the transmission that we were doing burnouts and test drives with at FieroRama, the show at my place and at Bob's is not only an Isuzu, but a damaged high mileage one at that. All along, I have been planning to replace the transmission when I had time or when someone bought the car. I've been thinking that when it comes to replacing the trans. That I would subject the thing to a "Tina" type test, doing burnouts until it broke.
It would be a shame to R&R the trans. like anyone else would do. It would be more fun for it to go out with a oil & smoke show like Tina had. So be forwarned that it's gonna happen sooner or later.
So stay tuned, and come to all the Fiero shows you can, & if you are lucky you may be the one to witness it's final burnout.
Speakin of transaxle crashes, I have had this strange feeling come over me. Ever since I left the dyno this morning there seems to be a craving to go to Walmart and by a large push broom.....I will see if I can fit in the trunk before I go racing tonight. For some reason I think I am going to be sweeping the Getrag parts off of the strip tonight.....but hey, if it don't break I guess I did not try hard enough...hehe. Considering all of the TORTURE it has gone through in the last 20000 Km....ah much fun. Oh by the way Archie how did you do with your LS1 car?
Stephen Hintz(of Regina SK) LT1 IMSA
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04:20 PM
JSocha Member
Posts: 3522 From: Felton, MN, USA Registered: Apr 2001
Originally posted by JSocha: Archie...quick fix ...JB-Weld!
hehe yeah, but I wouldn't sell anything like that to someone else & JBWeld doesn't add any strength. It may stop the little dripping but I don't mind the drip once in a while. It, the drip, lets me know that there is still some oil left in the trans.
Archie
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04:38 PM
JSocha Member
Posts: 3522 From: Felton, MN, USA Registered: Apr 2001
damn, damn, damn, and more damn! i wish i had know this over a year ago, when i was looking for a tranny to replace the dead getrag in my gt! i wound up with a getrag out of a corsica (for the same price that i could've paid for an entire '86 coupe (with perfect interior!!)!!)
damn, damn, damn! guess i aint going with no getrag next time. stong enough my @$$!
------------------ hoop Red '86 GT KYB's, Eibach's and spellcheck crash's windows Poly Bushings Accel Coil
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05:57 PM
Patrick's Dad Member
Posts: 5154 From: Weymouth MA USA Registered: Feb 2000
My 85 2M4 was, of course, an I5, and my Formula is an M5.
I was not easy on either one of them, but the I5 fried three clutches to the M5's one. Someone (not on the forum) told me that the slave cyl. bracket was prone to twisting on the I5, hence incomplete travel and eventual clutch failure would ensue. Naturally, I was fairly happy to have a Muncie in the 88.
Now, I don't have a V8 (I don't even like tomato juice), so maybe there's only so much abuse I can give a 120K M5, but I found it easier to shift, less $maintenance, and, generally, complained far less than I do.
Archie, I don't have my drivetrain set, as I don't even have the car apart yet. I have always imagined a six in there (I know thay you're partial to eights), so, your opinion on the M5 mated to, possibly, a Short*? What about the 284 (New M5) rather than the 282 (Fiero M5)? I am thinking largely stock, ported, 3 angled, with better breathing.
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07:31 PM
PFF
System Bot
KissMySSFiero Member
Posts: 5559 From: Tarpon Springs, FL USA Registered: Nov 2000
Archie, why havent you used as many getrags. was it because the isuzu is cheaper and readily available or because you feel something isnt as good about the getrag?
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero: Archie, why havent you used as many getrags. was it because the isuzu is cheaper and readily available or because you feel something isnt as good about the getrag?
I would imagine it's because most people who purchase a car for a v8 swap get a cheap 4 cylinder rather than a v6.
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07:31 PM
88CoupeV6 Member
Posts: 1578 From: New Bedford MA Registered: May 2001
i hate mine. i was just thinking about posting about it. i just got a 4 speed '86 gt friday (8/31) and it shifts great. so dose an '84 i have. the izuzu has never felt very good to me. particularly the clutch action. i have to act like i'm trying to push the pedal through the floor to get a decent shift. thats after i work on it or i have it worked on (by a pretty reputable shop). i've gotten to the point hat if i really do a swap in my '87 coupe i may look for an economy '84 transaxle to go with it.
------------------ Phil T.
you can't win. you can't break even and you can't get out of the game.
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01:11 AM
Joe Torma Member
Posts: 3485 From: Hillsborough, NJ USA Registered: Jul 2001
I've seen holes blown through Getrag cases from too much power. I've been told they made the 4 speed's gears narrower in order to stuff a fifth gear in a similar case.
Quaffe will make a 6 speed transaxle for any engine you've got...only $20,000.
I wonder what the Pontiac Vibe transaxle will mate to...it is supposed to be a 6speed.
------------------
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02:09 AM
87GTBro Member
Posts: 1223 From: Edinburg,TX,USA Registered: Oct 1999
I thought the Pontiac Aztek was ugly! Have you seen the Vibe!!!??? What's wrong with those people at Pontiac??? That's messed up!!! Almost makes me unproud to have a pontiac...
can we call the Fiero a Pennock Fiero or something like that? I dunno... sounds good to me!
No offence Joe, but we've all heard this a thousand times before, but no one has ever seen it.
To all those who 'have seen' Getrags or Isuzus fail, please POST PICS, or shaddup
Both Fiero 5-speeds are generously overbuilt for their application, so much the better for all of us!!!
But stop with the lies (which they are, untill I see proof, I will call each and every one of you who says otherwise on your bluffs. PROVE me wrong, SHOW me a blown due-to-overtorque getrag.
The fact that you cannot show me even one when there are tens of thousands of so-equiped cars on the road speaks volumes.
Once again, I challenge you all to prove me wrong. I myself am going to try my best, as soon as I put my Northstar in the whole Getrag should frag at idle, right?
Best! Ben.
quote
Originally posted by Joe Torma: I've seen holes blown through Getrag cases from too much power. I've been told they made the 4 speed's gears narrower in order to stuff a fifth gear in a similar case.
Quaffe will make a 6 speed transaxle for any engine you've got...only $20,000.
I wonder what the Pontiac Vibe transaxle will mate to...it is supposed to be a 6speed.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top Metalic Red 88 Formula, Silver 87 Coupe, Metalic Red "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
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04:06 PM
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Joe Torma Member
Posts: 3485 From: Hillsborough, NJ USA Registered: Jul 2001
Originally posted by artherd: No offence Joe, but we've all heard this a thousand times before, but no one has ever seen it.But stop with the lies (which they are, untill I see proof, I will call each and every one of you who says otherwise on your bluffs. PROVE me wrong, SHOW me a blown due-to-overtorque getrag.
The fact that you cannot show me even one when there are tens of thousands of so-equiped cars on the road speaks volumes.
Why are you getting so pissed off?
Geez. All I said was that I've seen Getrags busted up. If you took my statement as "You've got a Getrag--hahahaha--you suck" SORRY.
I HAVE SEEN TWO. I didn't break the trans, it wasn't mine, so i didn't put it on my mantle to proudly show how a 4 speed/Izuzu is superior. All I know is there was a crack in the case on the one, and a larger crack and a 2 holes around a bearing in the other one.
I have not had a Getrag apart...only a 4sp Muncie. Let me tell you...I think Craftsman tractors have wider gears. Somehow these transaxles all stay toghether pretty well.
------------------ Did you get your car in my book yet???? http://www.animatedconcepts.com/fierobook.htm
Well, I just went out to my shop to take a picture of the Getrag I have that has the hole in the bell housing. Seems one of the throwout bearing forks busted off and then went thru the case and took out the gear set.
I was going to take the picture to post but the transaxle is under several layers of "stuff" and I just don't want to go thru all that trouble just to prove a point ...
Paul
------------------ -- Paul Herder 88 Formula - Artero kit car doner and 350 TPI 86 SE - 3.2 w/440T4 Transaxle 95 GMC - 350 TBI - Factory "Custom" 92 Mazda Protege - Stock 55 Jones - First Edition WIFE- all mods, equipment,updates :D Sedgwick, KS 67135
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08:09 PM
thomas_l Member
Posts: 1197 From: Alpharetta, GA, US Registered: Apr 2001
I'm also interested in this string, as it may help the high horsepower V8 guys with a trans option other than the Getrag. When I investigated this same question back about 4 years ago, I was told by pretty reliable sources, the over 350hp (and high torque)the Getrag was the strongest, the only debate was that some felt the 4spd might be stronger than the 5spd. At that time there were a couple reports that guys running Izusu 5spds and over 400hp sheared second gear in their trans, and replaced them with Getrags. That's what I heard, didn't witness it.
I can offer that my 88 Getrag 5spd has 130,000 miles on it, 5k with 330hp (almost equal torque), and 25K with about 410hp (almost equal torque). The only work done on the trans was done when the V8 conversion was put in, when they decided to replace the main roller bearings just to be safe as they had 90k on them. The 30k miles with the V8 have be abusive, but not crazy. Claification, I was crazy a couple times when I first got the car (with V8) and in the first year sheared two CV joints along with Mark Williams Alloy racing axles due to 5 grand hole shots on dry payment. Failures didn't happen right away, but a couple days later. Failures may also be related to bronze bushing/s wear at the trans case output as they have never been replaced (have new set of needle bearing seal asm's to be put in when next clutch is due), and are known to wear quicker on V8 applications.
There is a lot to consider when you're going beyond what something was designed to do. You have to consider your Horsepower, Torque, Clutch Setup, Halfshafts, Tires, everything that is affected by the power and torque of the engine. I can tell you from experience (400hp) that if you have a real grabber clutch, put big sticky tires on, and high rpm hole shot a lot on dry pavement, you going to being replacing parts or the trans (Jap or German) with regularity.
My questions for Archie, just to gain from his knowledge base would be:
Which Jap Trans and ratios is he using? Trans and Engine mount solid or isolated? Horsepower and Torque of V8 installed? Make and Type Clutch/Pressure Plate? Brand, Series, and Size of Tires? Shocks, Struts, Springs, Bushings of suspension parts (as they control weight transfer)? History of miles on each Car Modified?
These are important questions, which most of the time we only learn from the experience of working through the next weakest link of our drivetrain.
I know the next set of tires I will chose very carefully (width and compound), because I'd rather have them slip just a little on real hard acceleration, but still grab real good in turns. This also means different sets of tires for Track and Street due to the dramatic differences in the pavement surfaces.
I did talk to the guys at HD Eliminator over in Canada as they drag race V8 Fiero's. They told me they found the Getrag to be the strongest. They also said that they have busted transmissions in half after about 2 seasons of 5 grand hole shots, with engines over 350hp. They may be able to answer a lot of questions for the hard core drag race guys. Can't really speak for them, only had two conversations with them on what they might have available that no one else has.
Personally, if I wanted to drag race seriously with the Fiero, I'd go with a beefed auto (3,500rpm high stall torgue). Road Coarse or Autocross diffently 4 or 5spd.
Excuse spelling errors not using spell check.
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09:07 PM
rockcrawl Member
Posts: 2528 From: Lehigh Valley, PA Registered: Jul 2000
Seems one of the throwout bearing forks busted off and then went thru the case and took out the gear set
Sure, but that's not caused by excessive HP or torque. The same thing would have happened with a 4 cyl. I agree with artherd on this one. I think that any of the Fiero transmisions will hold up to any streetable V8, so long as the trans is in good condition to begin with and it is not overly abused. I think Archie has proven this over the past 15(?) years. Of course I have no first hand experience so I should probably shut up!
quote
They also said that they have busted transmissions in half after about 2 seasons of 5 grand hole shots, with engines over 350hp
Do enough of that with a V8 Camaro or Mustang and you'll likely break the transmisions on those too.
I've got a SBC in my '58 CJ5 with the stock T90 trans. Most guys who know what a t90 is just cringe when I tell them that. I've been rockcrawling with it for several years and never broke the trans. I'm not easy on it, but I don't abuse it. OK, I'm getting off-topic...
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09:32 PM
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
Joe, I'm not angry with you at all, it's just that I've heard SO incredibly much BS about this over the years, and I'm growing very very sick of it.
It's like the "your fiero is a firetrap" crap, only that actually has some factual basis...
Again, to *everyone* who claims a getrag won't work with a V8, that it's too weak, that it "can't take it" Put up, or shut up.
Post pics of an over-torqued getrag.
Otherwise, BS.
Granted, the transmission was not likely designed with a V8 engine in mind, however I think it's reliability record is not just good, but near-mericle. Quite frankly, several SHOULD have failed.
SHOW ME. Stories of someone's aunt's friends who drag don't intrest me. PICTURES. Photographic evidence. Sheesh.
All I am asking is for those making these outrageous claims to backup their statements with fact. If that comes across as offensive, I appologise. Best! Ben.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top Metalic Red 88 Formula, Silver 87 Coupe, Metalic Red "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
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10:51 PM
California Kid Member
Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
Originally posted by artherd: Joe, I'm not angry with you at all, it's just that I've heard SO incredibly much BS about this over the years, and I'm growing very very sick of it.
No big deal. I hear ya.
Any part of the drivetrain could break if pushed.
------------------ Did you get your car in my book yet???? http://www.animatedconcepts.com/fierobook.htm
I have a little over 3,000 miles on my car and a mild v8 setup/5speed getrag. I have been beating on my car a lot since I street race it on the weekends quite a bit. I am kinda curious to see how much punishment this getrag can take. Only problem I have found so far is that my centerforce DF doesn't hold sometimes(rarely) when I drag and shift to second. I am using stock axles and an Archie kit.
So Archie, is the Izuzu tranny still in working order?
Jim 87 GT T-TOP V8 87 GT
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12:43 AM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
Hi Joe, I totally agree, and we are definately talking about pushing the drivetrain
"Anything can fail if subjected to severe and constant abuse." to paraphrase Archie.
I can't belive that with over 1500 Archie V8 cars alone on the road, that one hasn't blown a tranny. Statistically, there should have been a few failures just due to wear, etc before the V8 ever went in.
Anyway, thanks to Tom, looks like I'm going to be running a Quartermaster dual-plate clutch in my car! (wow, 4 hours of stop-n-go! amazing! I pull off the road if there's heavy traffice now, but hard to do that for a show
That is very impressive for a 7.25" racing clutch designed neither for longevity under stop-n-go, nor for high mileage street driving. and behind ~400hp too.
Mrm, now to get off my duff and find Keith
Best! Ben.
quote
Originally posted by Joe Torma: No big deal. I hear ya.
Any part of the drivetrain could break if pushed.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top Metalic Red 88 Formula, Silver 87 Coupe, Metalic Red "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
Oh by the way Archie how did you do with your LS1 car?
All I know is there was a crack in the case on the one, and a larger crack and a 2 holes around a bearing in the other one.
