Cliff, this post is directed mainly at you, but I'm sure you'd appreciate hearing whether anyone else agrees or disagrees with me.

We recently had a thread deleted (yes a thread, not just a post) by a forum member. I believe this is the first time that this has happened. You have deleted a couple of threads in the past, but as you are the moderator, I feel that you have every right to do so. However, I find it kind of scary that any originator of a thread can delete the WHOLE thread at their discretion. For example, the fella who originally started the "Clutch info uncovered..." thread way back in April of '99 could come back at any time and destroy over 135 informative posts. It's unlikely, but it's possible.

The thread that was deleted recently by one of our members will probably not be missed by anyone, including myself, but that's not the point. I love the ability to be able to edit or delete my OWN posts, but is it really necessary for any of us to be able to delete other member's posts, simply because we started a particular thread?

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I would like to see this feature of the forum changed if possible to ensure that the time and effort that members put into their posts isn't for naught.

Hadn't thought about that and I must say I agree with you 100%... I've now disabled the option that originators can delete a thread by themself. So if anyone wants a thread deleted, they'd need to email me first. Thanks for the observation Patrick!

I deleted a complete thread before and suggested that someone else delete theirs yesterday. If you remember, I had words with VR6boy a while back. My thread started to get a little ugly and I decided to let bygones be bygones, so I deleted the thread in the hopes that there wouldn't be anymore damage done. I still stand behind my decision to do that. While I can see your point, Patrick, I think that sometimes it's in the best interest of the forum to let things go that way. If it was me you were referring to feel free to use my name either now or in the future. I don't have a problem with it. I also suggested to AL (I think) that he delete his entire thread. That one was getting really ugly and, although his opinion (as well as everyone elses) counts, he had made amends to Tom and everything should have been square between the two. It was over and done yet it kept going on IMO. I don't recommend deleting most threads as I enjoy searching for old (new to me) info, but sometimes when it's over it's over. Personally I don't see a problem with having to email Cliff to get a thread deleted, but I just wanted to defend my actions. Peace!!

Monkey scores again!! good points.

Monkey, you definately have a point... however, it is just as easy to send a email to Cliff to have a thread cleaned. It would be a great tragedy to lose some valuable information, because someone came in and deleated an old thread!

Yes,

But If we keep going in this line, this will be Cliff's full time job.... Your responsabilities are growing.

Also, I deleted a thread that only had received one reply. A "new" member had responded to me that he could help me out because his father-in-law owned a parts store. I immediately pulled the thread and let him know that unless he was sure that he could get this same sort of thing for 700 others, that he had better not offer it to me. Another time, I simply posted a question, then rememberd that I had forgotten to search the archives. When I performed my search, I found the information that I needed. Pulled that thread too.

I think that we should be able to delete our own threads. Why on earth would someone delete a valuable thread? I think that we are all adults here, and I enjoy having the ability to pull my own threads.

William T. Thorn, III

I think(therefore I am) that we still need some form of editing or deletion funtion. I have been thankful for these features to cover my screw ups, I tried to post an animated gif recently didn't work too well- picture filled the entire screen and took about 45 sec. to cycle. Good thing I could get rid of it. After reading this post looks like the edit funtion would suffice and leave the delete to Cliff. BUT SPEL CHEEK WUD B GRATE

Editing messages is still possible, as well as deleting your own posts - I think. I thought I only disabled deleting complete threads, but I have to check again.

I think all of you raise valid points and I can certainly see when it would be desirable to delete a complete thread. Hmmmm. Now I'm confused.

Cliff,

Welcome to my world... confused that is!

William T. Thorn, III

Phil--If you're going to wax philosophical, don't forget, "I'm pink, therefore I'm Spam."

Do you know how Descarte died?

He was with a buddy in a cafe and the waitress asked him if he wanted some more coffee and he said "I think not" and poof he was gone.

It would be kinda nice if a edited post didn't say so at the bottom of a reply. Makes it look like I don't know how to spel and I had too go back and chaing it! LOL!

[This message has been edited by Gokart (edited 01-07-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Gokart (edited 01-07-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Gokart (edited 01-08-2000).]

I find the actual deletion of a thread to be a pretty drastic measure. If a thread is getting out of hand, it's very simple for the moderator to step in and put a "lock" on it which prevents any more posts from being added. That step is usually enough. If there are some vulgar, libellous, or otherwise improper posts in a thread, those particular posts can always be removed. The "really ugly" thread that was deleted recently was, in my opinion, rather tame compared to what I've seen elsewhere.

Despite the few protestations posted above, I still believe my apprehension is valid. There is absolutely no way that any of us (other than Cliff) should be allowed to delete other people's posts. That is basically what some of you appear to be stating that you want. I find this idea preposterous. Who the heck is M-man, William, Phil, Kel, Batboy, Patrick, whoever, to say what posts should go and what posts should stay. I am in no way suggesting that we can't delete or edit our own posts. If you check back far enough in this forum, you'll find that I was the one who asked for this ability to be instituted in the first place.

I can remember when this forum had less than two hundred members. Membership is now rapidly approaching seven hundred and is growing exponentially. In the very near future we will have one thousand members. Having one thousand members involved with this forum will be great. Having one thousand "moderators" assisting Cliff at this forum could be disastrous.

I still think that the ability to delete your own threads is a good one. Maybe only in General Chat? That's where most of the "hot" topics usually stay.

Well I know in the past few days i deleted a thread, but it was one i accidently posted twice due to internet hiccups, and there were 0 responses. The ability for that was very useful.

The edit notice can be removed from messages with multiple edits. just scrole down and delete them. You only have to have one edit notice.

Edit notices are usefull when the system has more than one admin or sub admin. then you know who edit a message, not just that it was edited. For example On a board where the message may have a valid question/responce, but also have some rant in it, the admin can remove the rant but leave the rest.

Patrick,

I believe that you are missing the point somewhat. What is your ultimate fear? That some new member could join the Forum just to begin threads with the specific intent to gather information only to delete it later? You mention preposterous, that concept is much more so. Furthermore you suggest that an "ugly" thread could be locked so no new posts could be entered. What does that solve on this subject? If it contained a heated debate or some form of offensive material, all members would be allowed to view this material. This Forum is generally tame and a friendly environment as you noted, this is precisely the reason that many of us spend so much time in here. Small arguments are bound to happen in a general Forum such as this, but we all should know that most arguments are not something that should be done in public. Involved parties should resolve arguments only. For example, a short while ago on the fiero-list (a much more hostile environment) there was a small argument between two members. Although no one knew exactly what brought it on, we all (over 1000 of us) only wished that all comments could be forgotten. If a similar situation were to arise on one of my threads, without pausing, I would eliminate the thread. This is not to say that I should be allowed to censor anyone else’s thoughts and opinions. It is to say that I do not desire to be associated with unpleasant posts. Remember that Cliff intentionally blocks many 4-letter words. Why was this done? Cliff has stated that he wants this Forum to be a family-oriented site. I believe that this day and age when all of us have such different views on right and wrong that we should all be able to draw our own lines. If we are honestly working for the good of the Forum, then so be it. If some messages get deleted in the mean time that is the price that we have to pay to be part of such a wonderful environment.

So now that we agree to disagree, what can we do to resolve this issue? I find it unreasonable that Cliff would have to approve/disapprove any thread deletion. Although he is the moderator and therefore has certain maintenance responsibilities, this Forum should not be a burden. Perhaps upon the deletion of a thread by its originator, all parties that responded to the topic would be sent a notice with their replies attached. This way, each response would be returned to its rightful owner. If one were to feel the need to open a new thread they would be free to do so, but others that did not wish to contribute would better understand what they were getting involved with.

Patrick you have been a member of this forum considerably longer than I have. I am sorry that I did not discover it earlier but that should not be an issue. I can tell you that I love this Forum. I can tell you that I want to do everything in my power to keep this Forum a great place for all of us. We can get along, but we must have some form of censorship. As long as my name is associated with a thread, I want to be able to use my discretion about the threads validity to the overall good of the Forum.

William T. Thorn, III

Greg, nobody (not even me ) would have a problem with the example you gave. When you deleted the thread, you did not delete any other member's post(s).

It's interesting to note that some members consider a thread "theirs", to do with as they please, simply because they initiated it. Perhaps this is where the problem lies. I believe as soon as someone else contributes to a thread, that the thread then becomes communal property, it belongs to all members of the forum. At the very least, it belongs to everyone who posted in the thread. Any member who treats a thread they started as "theirs" is being selfish and self-serving, and shows no respect at all to the other members who took the time and trouble to respond.

William, I admire the fact that you've put a considerable amount of thought into your post. Before I respond to any of the points that you've mentioned, please answer this one question for me -

After all the effort that you've put into your response, how would you honestly feel if you checked back and found out that I had simply deleted this thread?

Forgive me if I'm intruding, but I've been here for about two months, and I've followed the TCCOA BBS (different format)for about 8 months now, and both have been very useful. Both have their shorfalls, but they pale when compared to the benefits. The TCCOA BBS is owned by the club, so the administrator has final say over pulling a thread, and he does a pretty good job, IMHO. There appear to have been a few flames written now and then, possibly using someone else's name, since there is no real security or registration required to post there, and the only way to edit is to delete and repost. I say Cliff gets final say over deleting an entire thread, though. It's his site. My $.02

Patrick,

I can assure you that I would be rather satisfied if the thread would have been deleted. You see, if that were to have happened, the Forum would most likely go unchanged and thread originators would still be able to delete a thread.

I can see your point. However as I stated before I do not believe that any amount of persuasion could be done to get me to agree with you. Right now, I am wishing that this thread would just end...

As always Cliff... It is up to you,

William T. Thorn, III

2birds, please don't apologize for "intruding". Your comments are most welcome. The reason I started this thread was to give forum members a chance to express themselves on this topic. If my wish was to have a closed discussion, I would have sent Cliff a private email.

William, your last post, short as it was, has told me a lot. You state that you'd be rather satisfied to see this thread deleted. Why? There has been no profanity or insults. There has been nothing offensive or unpleasant. There has simply been a healthy exchange of viewpoints. Yet you'd like to see this thread deleted. I can only conclude that it's because you don't agree with me. I find this very disturbing. I find this very disturbing because you'd rather have me censored than have my opinions remain available for other forum members to read. As much as this revelation upsets me, I can't imagine a better example of why forum members should not be allowed to delete threads.

Patrick--Personally it doesn't matter to me if this particular thread is deleted or not. I DO wish it would quietly fade into the background, though. I would choose to simply ignore it, but I'm too concerned with the forum (and too addicted!) to do that. I don't happen to agree with you but that has nothing to do with it. Unless you get personal (which you haven't) I could discuss this with you all day. In the thread I deleted (re: VR6boys comments), everyone seemed to agree with me, but I thought that it had lived its life and there was the strong possibility for damage. I shouldn't have said what I did (at least not the way I said it). I should have left it alone and now that I said what I did and everyone responded, we've lost a member. I heven't heard from VR6boy since. Maybe that's good and maybe it's not, but I'll never know. I don't mean to be so long winded, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that, if a thread has the potential for damage, the originator should have the option of either deleting the thread or moving it to the bottom of the list.

M-man, if it eases your conscience at all, my reasons for starting this thread had nothing to do with any involvement you personally may have had with any deleted threads in the past. My concern is for the continued integrity of this forum, which I enjoy and appreciate as much as you, William, or anyone else.

If you were to take the word "originator" out of your last sentence, and replace it with "moderator", we'd be in complete agreement.

I understand both sides of the story here. I understand Patrick's concern that some valuable threads might be lost because a user accidently or maliciously deletes a thread he/she originated. But William's point is valid also. A user should be able to delete his/her thread that has the potential of getting out of hand. A good example was the thread Al started. He probably originated that thread in an impulse, later apologized for what he said but saw that the thread had the potential to explode into a never-ending flamewar. He did (in my opinion) the right thing by deleting that thread.

Now you may argue that this is really my job but honestly, I don't read every thread on this forum and sometimes am unaware of what's going on in certain threads. I've also always tried to leave the forum as un-moderated as possible, leaving it to the members' good judgement as to what is appropriate and what isn't. And as it turns out, that really works and I would really want it to stay that way.

But like I said, I can see Patrick's point also. So we need to find a way to protect important threads from being deleted. I think this can be done quite easily. First of all I need to tell you I do make backups of the forum every now and then. I also have to admit it has been a few months since I last did this. From now on, I'll try to make a backup at least once a week so if a thread gets deleted, I'll be able to restore a version that's a week old at the most. Another thing I can do: there's a feature of the forum's software that I haven't used yet, and that's the archiving of threads. I can move a thread to the archive quite simply. Once the thread is in the archive, it can't be deleted nor edited. The reason I've never archived a thread before is because you are also not able to add to the thread.

I can also try to change the software so that if a thread reaches a certain amount of posts (weight), it can't be deleted anymore. Let me know what you think. I think a compromise like this would be the only way to
make both sides happy.

Patrick,

I think that you have misconstrued my point. My intention was to state only what Monkey said... that I would rather not deal with this post. If my posts are not eloquent and grammatically correct I am sorry you see, I am an engineer in mind and soul. I see a problem and my action is spent in coming up with compromises, debate is very rarely part of this process. Usually this is due to engineering’s base on the sciences. We will all retreat to our bookshelves and complete some calculations that support or disprove our point. As far as verbal discussions, only in circumstances of something that I really believe in do I take a stand. I have made my stand. People have heard my point. I feel that I am done in this exchange of viewpoints. I am bowing out of this thread as of this debate.

To address your point about how upset you are about my last post, you are absolutely correct in saying that this thread lacks profanity, insults, offensive and unpleasant material. My answer was simply one of my personal opinion, which is exactly what I thought you wanted. If you were to ask me if I think that this thread should be deleted then I have a completely different answer altogether. NO. I think that this thread is valuable if for nothing else, to see exactly how many people care about a subject that you felt was of no ones concern but Cliff.

I will restate my point from before. Patrick you and I must agree to disagree. There is no amount of hounding/debating/discussing that will make me change my mind. Right now we are engaged in trench warfare, neither side will advance in this manner. What we must focus on is what you seem to be ignoring... finding a solution. Any ideas anyone?

William T. Thorn, III

[This message has been edited by william_thorniii (edited 01-09-2000).]

William, I could only shake my head in wonder as I read your last post. Anyone who has followed this thread from the beginning can easily see that it is full of, shall we say, "inconsistencies". However, with the best interests of the forum in mind, I've chosen to refrain from discussing them. Let's just drop it. You're tired of debating this issue. Frankly, so am I. We may be at loggerheads, but at least we've both demonstrated that we care enough about this forum to make our feelings heard.

Cliff, please just do as you see fit. I understand your difficulty in keeping track of every thread. If you feel your best option to monitor inappropriate threads is to give any member who starts a thread the power to delete it, so be it. Backing up threads once a week, and archiving threads after a month of inactivity should hopefully be protection enough against any kind of possible abuse. I'm not pleased with this outcome, but I can live with it.

To the various forum members who have taken the time and trouble to express themselves in this thread, thanks for doing so.

Perhaps if this thread sinks to a low enough level, maybe finally Patrick will let it freakin DIE!
I am so DAMN tired of listening to this self-importatnt "I was here first, therefore I am the authority" tone put out by YOU, PATRICK!!! And I KNOW that I am not the only one. I really don't know if it is real human companions that you lack, or if there is an actual chemical imbalance that makes you keep drudging up the SAME **** over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. You want to make the rules- go start your own forum! Patricks Canadian Janitors or whatever.

For those who think I am being a total prick, yeah, I am. I have tried to have humorous sparring, or intelligent debate with Patrick only to get back a pile of DRAMA. I sense that Patrick REALLY REALLY likes to see his name on the screen, and the longer the rant the better. I can live with that, I just wanted to tag my little graffitti on this thread that surely shall NEVER DIE!!! (bwaahahahaha)

Ehm, Stimpy, actually you are the one who is raising this thread from the dead now. As you may or may not have seen, the last post dated from January 10th. That is - until you found it necessary to add another message to it.

And I'm really getting a bit sick and tired of this BS. From now on I'll be closing and deleting threads as I see fit. Starting here.