if you read the last post and the posts on the following pages, they hacked up a A2w core and mod'ed it to run CO2 through them and maintained 70* manifold temps! wouldn't do a damn bit of good on the street, but still pretty cool...
------------------ there's a Group on 60degreeV6.com for us 660 Fiero owners!
Drag racers have used cool cans (can of ice the fuel line runs through) and intake pans full of ice for years. It's pretty neat when old tech resurfaces in new ways.
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12:25 PM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 16099 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
There is something called a Cryo Cooler that releases CO2 (Carbon Dioxide) from a tank to bring intercoolers to sub zero temperatures for a short amount of time such as on a 1/4 MIl run. Here is an old video where the owner uses one during a dyno test.
He makes quite a large amount of power with that turbo 3.4L P/R engine. Notice the frost on the heat exchanger
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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12:33 PM
Jan 8th, 2013
ace5514 Member
Posts: 692 From: west long branch, nj, usa Registered: Nov 2008
Stock internals......yea right and I have a slightly used bridge ffor sale....cheap!!! So I can go buy a stock 3.4 motor, slap it in my fiero bolt on some turbo stuff and punch out over 300 hp at the wheels? If that is true, why bother with a 3800 sc when I could swap the 3.4 meself and probably add the turbo stuff too (except for the tuning). Is that really possible?
Stock internals......yea right and I have a slightly used bridge ffor sale....cheap!!! So I can go buy a stock 3.4 motor, slap it in my fiero bolt on some turbo stuff and punch out over 300 hp at the wheels? If that is true, why bother with a 3800 sc when I could swap the 3.4 meself and probably add the turbo stuff too (except for the tuning). Is that really possible?
Yeah that's right if you know what you're doing and chances are that the 3800 SC being a stock platform is much easier and more common a swap for turn key performance once the install is complete. There is no other common stock boosted application aside from it that nearly drops in from a relative standpoint and utilizes the tranny already in place. Tuning a custom boosted application is time consuming and in the long run almost always more expensive and frustrating to perfect. The Turbo Grand Prix is the closest 60 degree application but it is not nearly as common or powerful than the 3800 SC.
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08:10 AM
ace5514 Member
Posts: 692 From: west long branch, nj, usa Registered: Nov 2008
So the 3800 sc would also be easier to hit the 300 hp mark with out all the plumbing and intercooling of the turbo. But did that motor really sound like a stock 3.4?. Sounded like a cammed 350 pulling into the shop. Either way I will do a swap one day. The wiring and mounting of the 3800 is going to be the hard part. Al
Originally posted by ace5514: So the 3800 sc would also be easier to hit the 300 hp mark with out all the plumbing and intercooling of the turbo. But did that motor really sound like a stock 3.4?. Sounded like a cammed 350 pulling into the shop. Either way I will do a swap one day. The wiring and mounting of the 3800 is going to be the hard part. Al
He may have edited two different videos, at the end of the dyno pull note that the engine didn't have the lope that it did when driving into the bay before the cut to the stock internals edit. Poorly tuned high flow injectors can cause an erratic/surging idle. I recall at some point that he did build his motor, although stock internals to him might not have included the camshaft. It had a good bit of the exhaust deleted also.
Originally posted by Joseph Upson: He may have edited two different videos, at the end of the dyno pull note that the engine didn't have the lope that it did when driving into the bay before the cut to the stock internals edit. Poorly tuned high flow injectors can cause an erratic/surging idle. I recall at some point that he did build his motor, although stock internals to him might not have included the camshaft. It had a good bit of the exhaust deleted also.
Could be colder start the first time, and maybe 3rd dyno run, too. Heck, bone stock 2.8 in the 86 GT I used to have, sounded like it had a big cam in it, from a giant exhaust leak, and probably a vacuum leak, causing surging idle. Could have also been an LS1/LS6 car off screen with a big cam in it. It's hard to say really.
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05:40 PM
Jan 9th, 2013
ace5514 Member
Posts: 692 From: west long branch, nj, usa Registered: Nov 2008
true, it is hard to tell for sure... but i have to say i am really impressed with the numbers that 3.4 is doing for a 160 hp stock motor. i would be more than happy with 300 at the crank..heck 250 at the crank. i love the CO2 set up... i remember when they came out years ago. they used to sell what looked like an inline tube / sleeve with a bulb in it that you could charge with CO2 and put several in line as well as the intercooler chiller setup in the video. i think jc whitney still sells them.
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12:00 AM
dratts Member
Posts: 8373 From: Coeur d' alene Idaho USA Registered: Apr 2001
I'm not a fan of introducing more co2 into our atmosphere, but a dyno run or a 1/4 mile pull would probably be insignificant. Can't get much colder than dry ice!
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10:13 AM
PFF
System Bot
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 16099 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
Stock internals......yea right and I have a slightly used bridge ffor sale....cheap!!! So I can go buy a stock 3.4 motor, slap it in my fiero bolt on some turbo stuff and punch out over 300 hp at the wheels? If that is true, why bother with a 3800 sc when I could swap the 3.4 meself and probably add the turbo stuff too (except for the tuning). Is that really possible?
I communicated with the guy that did this dyno test a few years back. He does have an aggressive cam, runs IIRC 15-20 psi of intercooled/cryo cooled boost , has head work, larger injectors and forged pistons. The stock internals were the crank, rods and bearings. With that much boost, the mods, and the intercooler hitting below zero temps I believe that the numbers are reasonable.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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10:40 AM
ace5514 Member
Posts: 692 From: west long branch, nj, usa Registered: Nov 2008
the bridge reference was for the stock internals not the hp claim, it sounded like a hot cam but videos are difficult to be sure. the video is a little misleading and made it seem like they bolted a turbo to a stock 3.4, intercooled it and banged out 300+ rwhp which if it was a fresh rebuild and enough boost i guess you could come close. i have to admit, i have little turbo knowledge other than what i read but i do find them interesting. btw that car and video was impressive.
[This message has been edited by ace5514 (edited 01-09-2013).]
If that engine was in a Fiero you'd probably be looking at low 12's. For the 3.4L P/R engine that is respectable.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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08:43 PM
ace5514 Member
Posts: 692 From: west long branch, nj, usa Registered: Nov 2008
you guys keep posting this stuff and i am gonna end up effing up my car trying to do a turbo. i had an lt1 z28 back in 95 and with 373 gears, 1.6 roller rockers all kinds of stainless 3" exhaust ect. ect ect. oh and intake goodies and a complete computer reprogram to run about as fast as that last one. i could of had a v6!!!
I'm not a fan of introducing more co2 into our atmosphere, but a dyno run or a 1/4 mile pull would probably be insignificant. Can't get much colder than dry ice!
Build a Peltier-based heat exchanger?
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11:02 AM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 16099 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
Won't work the slightest. Even the small cigarette lighter plug in coolers use several amps of power just to chill a small area to 40* F below ambient. The power requirement for enough pelitier coolers to make a difference in intercooling would be over 100 amps and the hot side of the coolers needs a ventilation fan. If it was possible you would have seen commercial units by now. Getting back to the turbo 3.4L; if that same build was done on one of the GM high value V6 engines, the horsepower would be significantly higher. I believe that Joseph Upson has his build based on this platform.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Won't work the slightest. Even the small cigarette lighter plug in coolers use several amps of power just to chill a small area to 40* F below ambient. The power requirement for enough pelitier coolers to make a difference in intercooling would be over 100 amps and the hot side of the coolers needs a ventilation fan. If it was possible you would have seen commercial units by now. Getting back to the turbo 3.4L; if that same build was done on one of the GM high value V6 engines, the horsepower would be significantly higher. I believe that Joseph Upson has his build based on this platform.
Joseph's build is a 3.9L engine indeed. I think he has detuned quite a bit recently though.
As for the peltiers, that might be true for the coolers, but a beverage cooler which has minimal air contact, and no significant circulation, vs a properly built heat exchanger where air is constantly passing over a radiator (air conditioner) is quite different.
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06:15 PM
ericjon262 Member
Posts: 3159 From: everywhere. Registered: Jan 2010
there was quite a bit of discussion earlier on another forum on putting an evaporator in place of the water core in a A2W intercooler, I think it could work with the right refrigerant, but it wouldn't be easy, there would be a substantial amount of R&D to make work.
------------------ there's a Group on 60degreeV6.com for us 660 Fiero owners!
Originally posted by ericjon262: there was quite a bit of discussion earlier on another forum on putting an evaporator in place of the water core in a A2W intercooler, I think it could work with the right refrigerant, but it wouldn't be easy, there would be a substantial amount of R&D to make work.
It does work pretty well, I forget the name of the company that manufactures an A/C type intercooler unit but it't out there and mostly associated with Mustangs from what I recal. I tried a version of it by running my coolant through the heater core after bypassing the heater system but it only made a small difference mostly because I have a thin aftermarket heater core and even the full size stock brass unit is undersized for a reasonable return. Within 10 deg of ambient is good though.
