A trip to a high quality corvette body shop (Had work done before there and does A+ work) the other day gave me information that I did not realize before. I brought my car in to get to get an estimate and after some conversation I was told that a natural wax is actually somewhat detrimental to your paint surface in hotter climates with a dark car. Apparently when the car heats up in the sun during the day the natural Carnauba wax is very porous and opens up its pours for contaniments and dirt to get in than when cooled off closes its poors and traps the contantiments in the paint.
Heres some facts on this..

Carnauba wax

Carnauba wax derives from the Copernicia prunifera plant. This plant is found in the northeastern section of the Brazilian states of Piauí, Ceará, and Rio Grande do Norte. Pure carnauba wax is extremely hard and therefore needs additional ingredients such as oils or solvents to arrive into a liquid form.

Carnauba wax provides a deep rich look on the car's paint which is hard to imitate with synthetic waxes. Plus, it is extremely durable and can last on your car for several months depending on the blend.

From an environmental perspective, Carnauba Wax would be the most appropriate choice since it is a renewable resource. Although, one must also consider where it is being sourced from and how quickly it is being replenished from its natural environment.

Cost is the final consideration when selection a carnauba vs. polymer wax. Carnauba waxes are on average more expensive because of how the ingredients are sourced.


Polymer wax

Polymer waxes are typically manmade ingredients which simulate the same properties as a natural wax. They do not offer the same luster as a carnauba wax. However, car enthusiasts find that they are easier to work with in terms of application and buffing.

Polymer waxes are not as desirable from an environmental standpoint due to the fact that they derive from petroleum-based resources. However, advances in chemistry have opened up the doors to new "bio-based" polymers such as soy and starch.

Polymer and Carnauba wax differences:

The polymers and waxes used for detailing are semi-solid; they are actually a very concentrated solution in an organic solvent or aqueous emulsion

a) Polymer sealant- comprises an open linked molecule; these open linked polymer molecules join together to create an elongated mesh like effect that reflects light efficiently due to their inherent flat surface. Because they are usually very transparent they transmit the surface colour faithfully, but they have very little depth resulting in what is perceived as a very bright, flat silver glow. Initially polymers attach to the paint surface by surface tension, after they have cross-linked the polymers and paint molecules form a cationic bond.

b) Carnauba wax- molecules are closed linked, which means that they only butt up together to protect the surface. These wax molecules form an egg-grate type (with the long axis vertical) mesh over the smaller paint molecules of the paint film surface, which gives it an optical depth. Initially a Carnauba wax attaches itself by surface tension; during the curing process the carrier system (solvents / oils) attach themselves to the porous microscopic caps in the paint surface forming a physical anchor.

c) Melting points- Polymer melts at 350F, Mineral oils 200F, Carnauba Wax 180F and evaporates / erodes over time (dependant upon ambient temperatures and climatic conditions) wax is often mixed with Carnauba wax, which has an even lower melting point (130F), which further limits its durability. In actual practice higher temperatures frequently leads to melting of the wax compounds.

d)For example, painted surfaces exposed to ambient temperatures of 85F in direct sunlight, will obtain a temperature of 195F or more. This means that darker color cars in warmer climates exposed to more Sun and UV radiation is subjected to these kinds of results.

Note: Carnauba wax will bond to a cross-linked polymer, conversely if a polymer is applied on top of a Carnauba wax the cross-linking / bonding may be compromised. Although I would not state categorically that a product that is formulated with some oil in it will abort the cross linking or bonding process of a polymer, just that the process may not be as complete, and its strength and durability may be effected.

I opened this thread up to inform some and see what you think on this topic..

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1988 Pontiac Fiero Gt (fully optioned, factory leather, 5-speed, CJB T-Tops: Black w/ gray interior and blk wheels)
1992 GMC Typhoon #0203
1971Chevorlet Corvette 454cu/ LS5/ 4-speed/ convertible
1993 BMW 850 Ci 6-speed V-12

[This message has been edited by gmctyphoon1992 (edited 06-14-2012).]

Doing full blown customs and exotic cars for dozens of years in my own shop, Ill say I NEVER wax my own street or show cars. I use only polish. If I had to park always in harsh environments like under trees or bird nests, I might use wax. I drive all my cars year round and most set outside, some with covers. To me the shine is in the paint job...anything you put over it is just a protectant. Just my opinion. You can put $100 a can wax on your car, but if its a $100 paint job it dont make any difference. Same if you have a $5000 paint job...it looks the same with or without any wax. One reason I dont like wax is it makes water bead. In clearcoat paintjobs, those drops if you dont wipe them off burn microscopic holes in the clearcoat, causing premature failure. Thats my last word on it here, if anyone disagrees, thats fine.

But Polish and wax are completely different products and have different purposes though.

Polish removes contaminates and oxydation and more abrasive polishes can and are intended to remove paint. Too much polishing can actually damage your finish, wax will not.

Are you sure your not talking about a sealant (basically a synthetic finish sealer as an alternative to wax) rather than a polish? Im also not trying to contradict your ways in. Like you said in other threads, youve doing cars for 50 years. Just curious as to what you think from a more experienced mind?

[This message has been edited by gmctyphoon1992 (edited 06-14-2012).]

No, not a sealant...those are total snake oil. Im talking liquid polish. Yes it does take off contaminants and swirl marks and great for tar and oils from the road. I polish most of my cars at least a few times a week all the time. During show season I might polish one several times just on the weekend or even a day. Ive never worn thru paint even on cars Ive owned 15 years. I sold my old red Mercedes painted in acrylic enamel single stage to a guy I know. I never waxed it, hes never waxed it only polished. It looks just like it did when I painted it in the 80s. On a non basecoat/clearcoat paint job, just soap and water or rubbing with a towel will wear paint off. So every wax ive seen used rubs color off too...except on clearcoats. Rubbing compound will def take paint off...thats what its for.

Wizards sealant is "snake oil"?

Ive been in the business 50 years and never heard of WIzards. The name says it all to me. Yes all the miracle wonder sealants, waxes, etc are snake oil. I used to do work for many years for a van converter doing paint jobs. This was in the 70s and they started selling a sealant for like $100 that they applied so you never had to wax or polish your vehicle for 5 years. It didnt work then either. The dealers loved that little scam. They sold it with almost every new car sale. Even crap factory paint will last 5 years if you never even wash it, so they didnt have to back up any claims. So, yes my opinion is there snake oil, or miracle in a bottle. They still sell 'aspirin type tablets' you put in your spark plug hole that replate your cylinder walls and rings too...since mid 1950's....and people still buy them.

They've only been around since 86 but they are pretty well known.
http://www.wizardsproducts....e/catalog/index.html

I guess I'd consider it as much snake oil as Mothers or Meguiars could be.

Zaino. I hate waxing a car, but zaino made it easy and amazing as long as the directions are accurately followed.

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www.hausofguru.com

So, if a polish removes contaminants, is that the same as a "cleaner wax"? Also, I see many manufacturers pushing "synthetic" waxes (Like Turtle Wax Ice). In the real world of daily drivers, don't you want protection for your paint along with the shine? Also, one last point: haven't most cars since the late 80's been base color/clear coat? I appreciate all the input from the people with years of paint shop experience. It would be interesting to hear from people in the wax business.

Put it this way as a baseline for what your preference is..

A Carnauba based natural car wax will almost always provide a deeper warm look to your car. It is as if there is a layer of transparent filmy water that sits on top of your paint. This gives carnauba products a coveted deep wet look.They usually wear off in 4 to 6 weeks though and the hotter the climate the faster it wears off. Synthetic polymer waxes on the other hand give a very different look. A cold glass like layer will seem to sit on top of the paint. Although providing less depth than carnauba natural waxes the synthetic polymers provide the most reflective coat possible for your car. The gloss is superior to that of a carnauba car wax. They are usually more durable and will last between 4 to 6 months.

Some car guys will apply the synthetic polymer wax on the car (To make sure we are on the same page...to actually wax the car with the synthetic wax not apply it and let it sit on the car).. let the coat cure for 24 hours and then apply the carnauba wax on top of that coat to give it the best of both worlds, deep and glossy.

[This message has been edited by gmctyphoon1992 (edited 06-16-2012).]

Synthetic Polymer etc...
Good luck removing that before any paint work is done. Even painting a chip is harder...
Many are also chemically resistance and only sanding the panel is only way to remove it. Even 3M paint prep has problems.

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Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

I had no idea that Carnauba wax melts at just 180 degrees. That makes it completely worthless for me six months out of the year.

I guess I will only shop for the synthetic polymers from now on. Even they will melt off of my black truck on 100+ degree days like today.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: I had no idea that Carnauba wax melts at just 180 degrees. That makes it completely worthless for me six months out of the year. I guess I will only shop for the synthetic polymers from now on. Even they will melt off of my black truck on 100+ degree days like today.

Actually that is in its natural state does it melt at 180 degrees.. With the chemicals in it to make it plyable enough to apply on the car lowers the resistance to 130 degress.. on a typical 85 degree day and dark car will get as hot as 170 degrees..

quote Originally posted by theogre: Synthetic Polymer etc... Good luck removing that before any paint work is done. Even painting a chip is harder... Many are also chemically resistance and only sanding the panel is only way to remove it. Even 3M paint prep has problems.

Isopropyl alcohol will take it right off, and then you can paint your chip.

[This message has been edited by TopNotch (edited 06-18-2012).]

quote Originally posted by sledcaddie: So, if a polish removes contaminants, is that the same as a "cleaner wax"? Also, I see many manufacturers pushing "synthetic" waxes (Like Turtle Wax Ice). In the real world of daily drivers, don't you want protection for your paint along with the shine? Also, one last point: haven't most cars since the late 80's been base color/clear coat? I appreciate all the input from the people with years of paint shop experience. It would be interesting to hear from people in the wax business.

Yes nearly all are now bsct/clr. The clearcoat urathane is the protectant. If you keep a car clean with current paints, you dont need to put anything at all on it ever. Ive never seen any of the miracle waxes make any of my cars have a deeper or glossier shine than the paint already has unless your car just dont have a good finish in the first place. The only time Ive seen a noticable difference is if that paint has not been taken car of. I can take any of my cars and polish or wax every panel with something different and the end result is always they all look exactly the same. I even had a guy demo a clay bar on my Sebring daily driver. While I will admit it 'felt' slicker on the side of the hood he did, it did not look any different than the other untouched side. Reading a printed reflection is my test.

Pretty much yes that cleaner wax and polish are much the same thing. Wipe on...wipe off, no rubbing. Some things about Turtle Wax Ice. It leaves no white residue, it can be used on black moldings & trim, and semi gloss panels like older muscle car hoods. Bad part is it does leave an oily, smearable coating on the paint after you wipe it off (unless you REALLY work at it).

Ive tried Mequires (like ColorX), Blue Corral, Ice, and all the other fancy waxes. None make my colors deeper or glossier. What I mostly use at car shows on mine is Mequires Cleaner/wax in a spray (misnomer...its really polish). It dont affect the gloss at all, but it does fill minor swirls from drying, removes bugs and oils/ tars, and removes fingerprints.
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In body/paint business since 1964. Owned my own shop for 30 years...retired 2008. Still plays with cars.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 06-17-2012).]

working at a detail shop. we use both polymer and carnauba wax. we use the polymer 90% of the time.
To me it does the same thing as the wax.
the polymer on the bottle says it can protect up to 5 years. never go by that. i can see it lasting 5 years if it was parked in the garage with a car cover and very very rarly driven. i put the polymer after polishing up the car. the water just beaded right off. but after about amonth it no longer beaded. i dont think its anything fancy really.

I just polish up the car and call it a day. wax or polymer does nothing for me really. but we gotta do what the boss says at the shop.....

Like id said earlier, the beading water kills clearcoat paint. Ive tried some of the polishes that do 'sheeting', what they call it when the water runs off without beading. Its similar in idea to Rain X. Thats what we used on our jet canopies because air blowing over it blew it right off without beading. The trouble with the paint one is it dont last at all. At the most you get a week or two. After the paint ages a bit, if its not waxed, it will naturally sheet off and the clearcoat will last much longer. My van has never had any wax or polish on it I can tell and I havent for 5 years ive owned it. It sets outside under a tree 24/7 because it wont fit in the garage. Rain and wash water sheet off of it just fine...it never has a bead or water spots so I dont even bother to dry it. Its original 1995 paint. Its not faded (dark teal), absolutely no body rust and no clear failure. The only part on it bad is the matching gel coat on the high top...parts are turning white just as any aged fiberglass does. I could buff it up a bit and it would look brand new except for the little nicks and scratches on it from 15 years. I occasionally wash it, once a month or two and nothing else, mostly to get the bird poo off.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Its original 1995 paint. Its not faded (dark teal), absolutely no body rust and no clear failure. The only part on it bad is the matching gel coat on the high top...parts are turning white just as any aged fiberglass does. I could buff it up a bit and it would look brand new except for the little nicks and scratches on it from 15 years. I occasionally wash it, once a month or two and nothing else, mostly to get the bird poo off.

I understand where your coming from and I also would understand that Ohio would have some hot days but in South Florida it is 90-100 degrees and 50-100% humidity all day everyday 10 months out of the year. Where having a black car in this southern heat can reach temperature in excess of 200 degrees on the paint. A polymer compound is applied more for the reasons of preventing the clearcoat from burning off and/or protecting the paint also. I have had 2 different cars with about 3-5K paint jobs on it (one recently fresh) that have sat outside the house with nothing really applied to them except for the occasional wash and within a 6 months the clear coat on the top of the car was all burned off and gone. So wouldnt you think (with your knowledge upon cars and paint for 50 years) some type of defensive coating be applied to protect it? I always thought it should?

[This message has been edited by gmctyphoon1992 (edited 06-17-2012).]

We get our share of hot weather. Its been 90s for a month and a half. While you get more of it, Ill bet your problem is more related to salt water nearby than the sun. Salt is rough on paint (and metal). Could also been a bad paint job or low quality clear. Just because you pay $4000 for a job dont make it any better. Wax may be of benefit there. I dont know, but ive heard than coast cars rust as bad as midwest cars from the salt air. My van is the cheapest paint and the least (1 coat clear) because thats what the factory puts on them. Mine also sits under tree sap and bird poo, along with a foot of snow for a couple of months so its hardly pampered.

Next day I do some painting, Im going to do me a test panel in basecoat/ clearcoat, mask off and wax one side with a name brand paste wax and lay it on a cement bench I have in the yard. There it will set in the sun, rain, snow and hail and see what happens to it during the year. I think ill just do the panel in thirds, so I can also put some single stage paint to the same test too.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 06-18-2012).]

You wouldnt believe how much rust I have to take off of metal because of the salt air. Living a few minutes from the beach doesnt help either lol. The salt is not as bad underneath the car though because the salt normally doesnt gather too much on the roads like the upper mid west does its more just in the coastly breeze. Whats also bad about the salt breeze is that any cleaning you did the day before will have salt all over it the next morning. That makes sense about the salt air killing the paint.. Now the question is would I rather do what you do and polish the car or use the polymer wax as stated earlier. Take off a small amount of contaminated clear or try to keep the contamination out?..

The reason why Carnauba wax is not an option here for warmer climates is because the car doesnt sit in the garage but more the sun and the wax like stated earlier is very porous letting contaminants in side the wax when hot and trapping contaminants when cooled down. (for others who were unclear about this)

[This message has been edited by gmctyphoon1992 (edited 06-18-2012).]