These pages are always available and the old TOC doesn't use any script or Java. This TOC page has been updated and current for years even tho I said I don't...
My tests: Any version of FF IE, Current Opera and Safari, w/ Current JavaRT does work and show the menu. Chrome w/ Current JavaRT, pages load but does not show the menu. Alternate link above does work. Chrome is default on many Tablets...
(Testing: FF12, Opera, Chrome & Safari in a WinXP SP3 VMware. FF & IE in "real" Win7 & WinXP SP3)
Tablet users... If old TOC won't work then sorry. Way too many tablets and Tablet OS to support. 4-5 versions of Android, Few versions Apple's iOS, WebOS, WinRT, etc, etc... I don't own a tablet and I'm not going to a store(s) to test my cave.
Why I don't post links to pages? Simple, I want you to see the TOC... Page I said might not be the only one that may help. For another too many links to keep track of... Cave has 140+- pages.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
If you want it to work in as many browsers as possible, I'd recommend getting rid of all the Java bits, and the frames. Top level frames do not exist in HTML 5, and Java in browsers (along with traditional plug-ins in general), are slowly going the way of the buffalo.
Simplifying your site, and getting rid of the pieces where people frequently have problems with your site, porting it to HTML5+CSS, and generally getting rid of extraneous content, will make it much nicer for people to look at and use, easier for them to find the information they need, and easier for you to maintain.
Already using CSS... HTML5... If can be done by recoding index and TOC pages maybe. I learned some HTML years ago only because I had too. I'm not recoding 140+ pages.
Several in past said to it ___ way but no-one shows how and so on... Example, Some said Flash was the ticket... Flash need tools etc and I'm not interested learning to program Flash. Flash has a history of problems to...
Using Java menu needs little work for my site. Programing some variables and text file and I'm done. Add new pages means just need to edit a text file. Can use w/o text file but text is easy... Last menu change was old java menu wouldn't work after Java had Major version update. This menu version is 7-8 years old now. Maybe more.
test some tablets... 1. Most/all does not support Java. Use http://home.comcast.net/~fierocave/ofcindex.htm (And should see Help link when access Java menu) 2. Some tablets default browser does not support any site w/ basic HTML4 frame. Try, if you can, using another browser or a PC/Mac. 3. Please, Do Not Email/PM me for tablet support issues. There are to many OS etc to support them.
Java have been updated to version 7. Java7 does see and run the menu.
HTML5... I have little interest or time to learn 5 or money to pay for tools or people so Upgrading the cave isn't likely to happen. If there is a free tool(s) to convert etc then maybe... 140+ pages... and I want a small menu like the java one.
quote
Originally posted by dobey: ... and easier for you to maintain.
Java menu is very easy to manage. I doubt that HTML5 is easier and I've used CSS 11+ years...
Why? Java menu and CSS are very modem friendly. And JavaVM came w/ Windows originally so Did Not have to DL the plugin...
Then you can simply style/position the menu to your liking with the CSS.
Also, Java is not "better for (dial-up) modems" in this case, because you're just sending one big stream of binary data, which doesn't compress anywhere near as well as text does. If you're worried about having lots of images, you can place them all in one large image, so that the browser will cache it locally, and then you can use CSS to only display the relevant section of the image in each spot. This is very common practice today, and many large sites (such as Google Maps, Mapquest, Amazon, Google+, Facebook, etc…) use it.
[This message has been edited by dobey (edited 08-13-2012).]
Originally posted by dobey: Also, Java is not "better for (dial-up) modems" in this case, because you're just sending one big stream of binary data, which doesn't compress anywhere near as well as text does. If you're worried about having lots of images,
You get that how? Java menu is dl once per visit/session, app does not use streaming, is cached locally, and total DL is ~36KB... tocframe.htm 4KB, SiteBrowser.jar 17KB (jar = zip file), ofcmenu.txt 6KB, and all images (Including backgrounds) ~9KB. Means TOC frame uses Less than 1 small-medium JPG. Cave has 53 pictures that are bigger than the TOC and menu...
So using HTML only w/o frames etc I have to edit Every 140+ pages? Like these examples (bellow)? Not gonna happen. Java and HTML menu frames allows you to jump to (almost) any page from any other page. (A few pages aren't in the menu) Easier to manage? Hardly. I use WordPad and Word to write the cave... Would take a month, likely allot more, to make it work w/o frames with little, likely no, benefit to me. Example sites... (All... Use View page source to see. Menus are just list of links. Look for: <li><a HREF= ) http://www.html-5-tutorial.com/ http://www.w3schools.com/html5/default.asp http://www.webmonkey.com/category/html5/ Webmonkey looks nice but they use menu code on every page. see <!-- global nav bar --> Their menu also uses Scripts and/or CSS to display...
All this to fix Tablets? Many Tablets are built with intentionally Broken Browsers. Broken? Yes. Why you say? Mainly because... 1. Feature(s) need Flash memory and RAM and Most Tablets are very tight on both. 2. Many Plug-ins won’t work or is outright banned. Example Apple's Flash ban.
If they can't or won't use better browsers then sorry but I'm not in a hurry to work around the problem. Fiero Cave not a pay service or business site... I make no money from the site.
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11:28 PM
Aug 16th, 2012
tucsonsean Member
Posts: 148 From: vail, az, usa Registered: Mar 2012
I just like regular old fashioned HTML. It's simple, efficient and reliable. I'm glad the old version of the site is still there. I hate client scripted sites, but some are worse than others. It's a power that's usually abused rather than used for something necessary. At the top of the list are sites that rewrite my browser's user interface with some clunky gimmick. I have scripting blocked to avoid the annoyance and only enable it when truly necessary, and I grumble about it almost every time. The web was easier to use in 1998.
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02:21 AM
jaskispyder Member
Posts: 21510 From: Northern MI Registered: Jun 2002
The java version works for me, when I am on a standard laptop or desktop. But the minute I jump to a tablet or android, then I am lost. I know there is a different TOC and such, but it can be frustrating to use the cave when I have to think about how I am going to use it. Sorry, I know you put a lot of effort into it, but I also am frustrated and frankly, I just don't use the cave as much as I should because of it. I also believe the cave information should be incorporated into the FAQ area of PFF. Again, not an attack, just giving you some feedback on the difficulty of using the cave.
Originally posted by jaskispyder: But the minute I jump to a tablet or android, then I am lost. I know there is a different TOC and such, but it can be frustrating to use the cave when I have to think about how I am going to use it.
Just set a bookmark to old page... If old menu works. All tested tablet shows help page.
Either menu can have same frame problem... That is because Tablet etc browser is so broken you can't even scroll down the "main" page. (right side frame) They set the browser to show shorter "toc" (left) frame as some kind of scroll limit. Odd too because there is nothing in the toc (or frame set) to limit the Android to do that...
I'm trying a few ideas to work around tablet problem on old menu. I don't own one so its hard to write and test... if a fix works for one/some, too many Tablet/phone OS versions to support. And I have meetings rest of the week...
Even if I did, avoid frames, most tablet and phone have limited screen real estate so you have to scroll much more that a PC...
Worse editing the site like examples above will cause problems when you print a page. Generating a clean print then need more messing w/ page file and CSS. I.E. Messing w/ screen display will mess w/ printing etc...
Originally posted by theogre: Even if I did, avoid frames, most tablet and phone have limited screen real estate so you have to scroll much more that a PC...
Worse editing the site like examples above will cause problems when you print a page. Generating a clean print then need more messing w/ page file and CSS. I.E. Messing w/ screen display will mess w/ printing etc...
Frames are no longer supported inside HTML5, so you should move away from using them if possible. More and more browsers will stop supporting them at all, over the next few years. You'll only cause yourself more grief with them, if you wait until the last minute to update.
The example I cited won't cause problems with printing, any more than your current site does. With CSS+HTML5 you can specify different layout for screen or printing, or even for different sized screens.
Originally posted by dobey: Frames are no longer supported inside HTML5, so you should move away from using them if possible. More and more browsers will stop supporting them at all, over the next few years. You'll only cause yourself more grief with them, if you wait until the last minute to update.
Frames aren't supported by browsers in future? That page above about all I have interest to support HTML5. IE tabindex will become main index. Not good enough? Took me two days and still has problems...
My Grief? likely no... Sadly, If site takes that kind of editing that expect the site may go down. The rest of pages have no script etc and should load. Uses CSS because made pages smaller. Many CSS tags are not supported in HTML5? Oh well...
Code above is nice but useless to me... I learned basic HTML only because free tools didn't exist back then... So code example is "Greek" to me. I know the tags but what is doing? No clue.
Free Tools to move cave to frameless HTML5 site? I don't see one. Comcast offers tool to make a new site but fix old one? no... I have to copy/past allot and fix and work around the problems. Site is 140+ pages w/ images to convert to HTLM5 with limited tools available to me. I'm not spending any money on it. Since my stoke I can't afford to...
With all the positive contribution you've made to this place either by posting or by pointing people to pages in your cave, there is no way this community will let your technical articles die because of html evolution...
I'm sure there is someone out here with good html5 knowledge that would be willing to help revamp your site...
Frames aren't supported by browsers in future? That page above about all I have interest to support HTML5. IE tabindex will become main index. Not good enough? Took me two days and still has problems...
My Grief? likely no... Sadly, If site takes that kind of editing that expect the site may go down. The rest of pages have no script etc and should load. Uses CSS because made pages smaller. Many CSS tags are not supported in HTML5? Oh well...
Code above is nice but useless to me... I learned basic HTML only because free tools didn't exist back then... So code example is "Greek" to me. I know the tags but what is doing? No clue.
Free Tools to move cave to frameless HTML5 site? I don't see one. Comcast offers tool to make a new site but fix old one? no... I have to copy/past allot and fix and work around the problems. Site is 140+ pages w/ images to convert to HTLM5 with limited tools available to me. I'm not spending any money on it. Since my stoke I can't afford to...
Do you have an archive (zip file or similar) of all the current files you have for the site, that I could grab from somewhere?
Ogre, could a link to the non-java menus within the help area be added along side the java links on the cave's home page for easier access?
------------------ RickN White 88GT 5spd (<10K miles) White 85GT (SC3800 Series II w/ AOD) White 99 F250SD 7.3PSD 6spd 1956 Ford 860 Tractor w/ Freeman Loader 20Ft H&H Tilt Bed Trailer (Remember - Gravity is not a tie-down)
Does your host offer php/mysql? Why not switch to a simple wordpress & you can use user friendly urls.
If you hosting this yourself, just look into wamp/lamp, depending on what os your server runs.
This way, you only handle the content once, & from the db, the server decides how it's viewed. You can switch platforms relatively easily. 140+ would be incredibly easy if you had help.
Does your host offer php/mysql? Why not switch to a simple wordpress & you can use user friendly urls.
No. home.comcast.net/~fierocave/ Site is a sub account on Comcast.
Site must be portable w/o any host support (PHP, etc) because site has moved several times. Comcast alone has move it 2-3 times now. At lest they removed 10MB storage limit.
"you can use user friendly urls" Again no... Many services will break the link after X days, weeks. Like many people sees Red X images from using Photobucket etc. I use sites and such links a broken more often then not.
I'm not very interested in running a site. Site was my answer to everyone posting same problems and had to learn basic HTML when I started. MS Word95 had no HTML support and "Tools" available were even less basic... (Word97 could DL HTML "filters.") 12+ years and 140+ pages later, yes converting to HTML5 is a problem.
Many in past said I should use X software... FrontPage, WordPress, etc, needs host support to work well or at all. I'm not spending any money to host the site And I not sending much, if any, time to learn new software for 1 site.
I'm not using IIS etc to test... Local "site" is a folder on my D: drive then work is done, FTP to Comcast.
Site won't go down but access it w/ browsers stopped supported can does same thing. Tabindex above is my answer for now. Even if people helps converting, adding new pages etc likely will be a problem. Most likely menu needs to be broken up so you won't cooling section on brake page menu etc...
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01:44 PM
CowsPatoot Member
Posts: 2792 From: Skidway Lake, MI Registered: May 2007
I know I am going to offend some people here...but I just have to get this off my chest.
I agree that the site drives me insane. I understand your desire to have people go through the menu to get somewhere...but it really irritates me to be forced to go BACK through the menu today when I already did it last week when I bookmarked the page, yesterday when I was verifying a couple things, and this morning when I was looking at it before my computer crashed.
quote
Originally posted by theogre:
No. home.comcast.net/~fierocave/ Site is a sub account on Comcast.
Site must be portable w/o any host support (PHP, etc) because site has moved several times. Comcast alone has move it 2-3 times now. At lest they removed 10MB storage limit.
"you can use user friendly urls" Again no... Many services will break the link after X days, weeks. Like many people sees Red X images from using Photobucket etc. I use sites and such links a broken more often then not.
Perhaps it is time to find a real host. I know you have no desire to run a website, but it is much easier to move into a new house than it is to live out of suitcases in hotel rooms. I'm sure there someone out there that would be willing to let you move into their basement. Then you could quit worrying about these restrictions.
quote
Originally posted by theogre:
You get that how? Java menu is dl once per visit/session, app does not use streaming, is cached locally, and total DL is ~36KB... tocframe.htm 4KB, SiteBrowser.jar 17KB (jar = zip file), ofcmenu.txt 6KB, and all images (Including backgrounds) ~9KB. Means TOC frame uses Less than 1 small-medium JPG. Cave has 53 pictures that are bigger than the TOC and menu...
quote
Originally posted by dobey: It's not 1998 any more.
The entire world is run on broadband at this point. Yes, there are a few stragglers out there still stuck on dialup...but this is starting to remind me of the "No child left behind" thing that the schools tried to do. When you pander to the slow kids, you handicap the normal ones. People on dialup know it will be slow...they have learned to deal with their inabilities...now quit holding back the rest of us. Plus, the whole "cached locally" thing is a wonderful concept if people are browsing your site...but it is time to admit that this site is best used as reference, not general amusement. That means that people don't "browse the site"....they go to the page they need and get what they want. So yes....in this case, the Java is not "better for (dial-up) modems".
quote
Originally posted by dobey: Frames are no longer supported inside HTML5.
I quit using Frames in the late 90s. Am I really the only one that saw it as a really bad design choice? There are problems with frames...and those problems snowball on you. The size of that snowball is affected by both time and the size of the hill (website). Now...after my venting and complaining, there ARE solutions to this problem. It WILL however require editing 140 or so pages. It WILL require a more modern programming technique. And it WILL require you to either spend the time to learn the new technique, or relinquish the webmaster controls to someone that knows them.
How would I do it so that the TOC can be edited without editing 140 pages any time something is added? Well....assuming we are going to stick with HTML, I would probably use a javascript function that writes the TOC. You can then just call the javascript file in the header, and run the function where you want to print the TOC. This has all of the advantages of your current applet solution, plus brings it into a bit more modern of an age. You make changes to the TOC by editing a single file...that single file would be cached locally for people that insist on "browsing the site"...it would allow user friendly URLs...it would be much more friendly to the "alternate browsing devices"...and it would allow it to "be portable w/o any host support (PHP, etc) because site has moved several times."
Originally posted by CowsPatoot: How would I do it so that the TOC can be edited without editing 140 pages any time something is added? Well....assuming we are going to stick with HTML, I would probably use a javascript function that writes the TOC. You can then just call the javascript file in the header, and run the function where you want to print the TOC. This has all of the advantages of your current applet solution, plus brings it into a bit more modern of an age. You make changes to the TOC by editing a single file...that single file would be cached locally for people that insist on "browsing the site"...it would allow user friendly URLs...it would be much more friendly to the "alternate browsing devices"...and it would allow it to "be portable w/o any host support (PHP, etc) because site has moved several times."
Dumb me... I should have search myself... That mean converting won't be as bad as I thought. Thanks for stopping my runaway thought train.
I like to see one w/ one file to manage the menu and no PHP etc.
All,
I've posted http://fierocave.home.comcast.net/sitebrowser.zip to give a sample. It contain two folders. 1. SiteBrowser and all the doc's 2. Cave's three Indexes etc files including ofcmenu.txt that what sitebrowser uses + 4 pages (folder has all files needed to run)
4 pages are: safety/jacking and jacking to clear engine general engine/oil&&filter and engine mounts
Short story... Site uses 1 frame set only All pages basic HTML, use tunl6a.css and main contents are in <div class=Section1> (except a few PFF archive pages)
I don't much care if site looks old... car is older. Some backgrounds could be updated but remember may help/hurt how people read... Allot of people have eye issues, including me. I used highish contrast and fonts setting for that reason.
I'm still checking the rest of pages to remove old Word tags and Vector images. I've stops use vector years ago but just didn't remove all of them.
I have some problems with getting CSS to work on my converted pages but show something better the tabindex. New menu is better at least. Does away with any left side menu.
CSS or whatever Problems? breaking any list spacing on most <Hx> <p> etc tags
Shows at least whet I hope new site could look like...
I guess this is the way of the "modern" web, but personally I liked the simple HTML links at the side. That animated script based dropdown menu stuff just irritates me. The content is the main thing though, so whatever.
Java menu will go away eventually but a new menu will like be a drop down at top.
Why? Screen real estate and Many tablets lack of... Even the tablet index would be a problem on small screens. What I'm trying to avoid using fixed text box as well so that whatever size screen, just set a small window or have a small screen, you don't have use the horizontal scroll just to read the page, like PFF with huge pictures posted. Having to scroll both ways or mess w/ zoom is a royal pain in the neck...
Today, I finished standardize the pages to the same heads and removed all the vector images and other word tags/characters. Of course by doing so I had to edit most tables and fix illegal characters. Many tables still need work but I'll post the changes later.
I have another vote for CSS. Then you could do a style sheet for mobile devices. (Android, iPhone, Blackberry, etc.) The current Java version doesn't load right, at least on my phone. The cave would have saved my a$$ when I was stranded on the side of the road. Instead I needed to have a friend on a desktop look it up and come to the rescue.
mobile css? maybe. If/when I get time. Hard enough to get tunl6a.css to work.... update HTML means many things break. I've had to edit most to eliminate Word's "SmartQuote" cause illegal characters etc in HTLM5. <B> and other tag need work too but not a rush. HTML5 change <b> </b> to <span style="font-weight:bold"> </span> I think. <i> uses font-weight:....
Took hours to figure which CSS cause a problem... Then took more time to fix it. example tunl6a.css is missing many margin tag... every headline p list etc needs there own margins.
Again... Menu is Big. To put this on every page? Now a big copy/past but have to edit again to add a new page...
Does this exist or can someone make one for me?
quote
Originally posted by CowsPatoot: How would I do it so that the TOC can be edited without editing 140 pages any time something is added? Well....assuming we are going to stick with HTML, I would probably use a javascript function that writes the TOC. You can then just call the javascript file in the header, and run the function where you want to print the TOC. This has all of the advantages of your current applet solution, plus brings it into a bit more modern of an age. You make changes to the TOC by editing a single file...that single file would be cached locally for people that insist on "browsing the site"...it would allow user friendly URLs...it would be much more friendly to the "alternate browsing devices"...and it would allow it to "be portable w/o any host support (PHP, etc) because site has moved several times."
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01:40 PM
Fierfly Member
Posts: 154 From: Millers Creek, NC Registered: Jul 2009
Off the shelf? Maybe, maybe not...I haven't looked. Anything we find out there would probably have to be customized anyway. I can write one for you, but can't get it it until beginning of the week.
Edit ot add...whoops, don't check the forums on someone else's computer....This is CowsPatoot.
[This message has been edited by Fierfly (edited 08-25-2012).]
All... had to fix test(2)/index and tabindex... I added extra </li> and broke in IE (FF ignore the problem ) added two pages ecm, sensor quick ref 4cyl engine, quick ref
iPad (latest) - iOS 5.1.1 - embedded Safari. (Screen size: 10 inches (9.7 to be exact) / 2048x1536) Menu: Takes about 2/3 of width of screen (horizontal or vertical) but can be a bit hard to read when reading vertically (font ends up being a bit small). Works well though, sub-menus appear rather quickly. Text/images: good size font and contrast, easy to read both horizontally and vertically
iPhone 3GS - iOS 5.1.1 - embedded Safari (Screen size: 3.5 inches / 480x320) Menu: Takes about 2/3 of width of screen (horizontal or vertical) but is quite hard to read when reading vertically (font ends up being way too small). Works well though, sub-menus appear rather quickly. Text/images: Fonts are ok when reading horizontally but are kind of fuzzy when reading vertically, zooming is necessary if one doesn't want to end-up with a headache after 15 minutes. I would guess this looks much better on an iPhone 4/4S which has a better screen resolution. Jacking image is ok, able to read text in legend once zommed-in.
Also tested on Windows 7 laptop with 17inches screen @1600x900 (browser window is set to about 2/3 of screen size). Everything looks good, but noticed the following differences between IE (9.09) and Google Chrome (21.0.1180.89):
The fonts look better on Chrome than on IE. Letters are quite more precise on Chrome, for example, 'W' or 'V' on IE look a bit more pale than other letters while they are just as black as the other letters on Chrome.
Line spacing on Chrome is a bit bigger than on IE. I find the page is harder to read on IE because of it. Font spacing is the same, letters are closer to each other on IE and makes it a bit harder to read, especially the menu items
One note about printing (I only mention because some folks like to print this stuff up on paper and bring it to their car). When using Chrome to print, the "copyright" footer ends up in the right margin of the first page, overlapping the article's text (see image below). This does not happen on IE 9.
Also, not sure if you meant that top menu should not show up at all when printing, but it does on both IE9 and Chrome (also noticeable in below picture) sub-menus do not show up though (which is probably what you meant when you said the menu will not show-up come to think of it ).
All in all I'd say simply increase the menu item's font size a bit and it will be quite readable even on an old iPhone 3GS!
*edited to add screen resolution and print preview.
------------------ Ben 87 GT 84 Indy #1863
[This message has been edited by benoitmalenfant (edited 09-03-2012).]
Try again please I fix hidden menu to print and seem to stops FF & Chrome printing copyright problem. Opera has some problems printing and won't hide the menu but ok on screen.
I'm still working on printing CSS... 1. To hide menu, I'm just setting menu height to 0. Works but is correct? Not sure. 2. Footer (copyright) is not printing at all but header & nav div's (menu etc) prints. Maybe something is wrong w/ @page in tunl6p.css Printing is next item to fix... Right now I'm editing tables on most pages so they use only css... I found the problem...
I bumped menu text a little bit. A bit more on devices using handheld CSS. Menu is default setting now.
Allot of them uses Zoom to read a page... Zooming vs Readable Page can depend on device on hand,i.e. Zoom software or screen issues.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 09-03-2012).]
Printing works well now on IE9 and Chrome 21.xxx (latest). the Copyright properly shows-up at the bottom of the last page only and the top menu is hidden.
Also, I personally prefer the menu's background in light blue with black font like you have now, easier on the eye.
Thanks, I found right way to stop showing menu when printing. I did bump font size on handheld css and menu blue w/ black text is likely to stay or close to it.
------------------ RickN White 88GT 5spd (<10K miles) White 85GT (SC3800 Series II w/ AOD) White 99 F250SD 7.3PSD 6spd 1956 Ford 860 Tractor w/ Freeman Loader 20Ft H&H Tilt Bed Trailer (Remember - Gravity is not a tie-down)
Site now has a Site Map, including sub pages that are not in main menu.
Why this? Menu is good but Accessibility tools have problem using it. all pages has a link to the Site Map. And I've set Title and Alt to Site Map so tools can read that too. (Most images have alt and title info for years...) Example: Nuance NaturallySpeaking + IE + say "click site map" then IE goes to Site Map. (Some/all FF versions have problems... Nuance sees commands but FF ignores NaturallySpeaking 12 some times.)
Site Map icon is: Current icon is .png file
Also... Besides eliminating Java, Java Script is now an option. If you use FF w/ NoScript etc then site still works.
).
