This may (or may not) be an unusual situation, so please bear with me!

I've got an '86 GT here which has been sitting for years. I was told by the previous owner that the engine was seized, but I discovered that it's actually the alternator which is seized. The engine turns freely (using a wrench on the crankshaft/balancer bolt). While that might be great, the engine could still have any number of other things wrong with it.

The car itself is in really rough shape (entire interior stripped out, signs of potential frame damage from an accident long ago, etc), therefore it's probably not worth resurrecting. So I'd like to take the entire cradle (engine, 4-spd, suspension) from this '86 GT and transfer it to an '87 duke coupe. However, that's only if the engine runs okay.

[EDIT] After more thought, I think I'll restore the GT.

I wanted to pump the stale gas out of the tank, so I connected 12V to the "G" terminal of the ALDL connector (with the fuel lines disconnected from the fuel rail). Nothing... no hum, no pumping. Damn.

Obviously, if I was hoping to make this particular vehicle roadworthy again, I'd drop the tank and replace the fuel pump. However, in this situation, I just want to find out if this engine runs, and if it does (without issues), then start the cradle swap to the other Fiero.

What (if any) are my options for test running this GT's engine without supplying fuel from its own gas tank?

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-18-2012).]

You can at least see if it starts by spraying starting fluid into the throttle body.

Maybe try a 5gal gas can, external (or old good internal pump) pump and reg.

I like the spray in tb as well.

quote Originally posted by TopNotch: You can at least see if it starts by spraying starting fluid into the throttle body.

quote Originally posted by revin: I like the spray in tb as well.

I've never used starting fluid. I figured it would only be good for basically "starting" the engine. Would the engine actually run smooth enough and long enough just on this fluid for me to determine whether the engine is capable of running "properly"... ie doesn't knock or isn't burning oil and/or coolant, etc?

the "spray" will mainly just fire 1 or 2 cyl. not make it "run" just sputter to where you say yes it does turn over.

The duke pump may not give enough pressure to make it run at idle

I also have another thought,but could be dangerous.
remove/tap into the fuel lines from a working Fiero, add 2 long rubber hose to the other engine and turn key to energize the pump. JUST BE REAL CAREFULL (we still need ya on here )

Actually, starting fluid will run it for about 2 or 3 seconds. And if you have someone stand there and give it a shot each time it starts to die, you can keep it going for a while. It won't idle, but will rev and start to die, but at least you can tell if there is a knock.

quote Originally posted by revin: I also have another thought,but could be dangerous. remove/tap into the fuel lines from a working Fiero, add 2 long rubber hose to the other engine and turn key to energize the pump.

Interestingly enough, I had earlier been considering that.

quote Originally posted by revin: JUST BE REAL CAREFULL (we still need ya on here )

Thanks. Yeah, I don't want to posting from the burn ward of the local hospital.

I used an external fuel pump (eBay cheapie) in a gas can to do exactly this.. Original pump was rusted (or varnished..) solid. Ran it just long enough to check the motor, worked great and I've used the pump a few times to transfer gas..

Edit - that video is awesome! I think some Darwin Award winners started out like that!

[This message has been edited by Riceburner98 (edited 05-14-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Riceburner98: that video is awesome! I think some Darwin Award winners started out like that!

I know exactly what you mean. I was waiting for an explosion and/or flames the whole time the guy was driving!

quote Originally posted by Riceburner98: I used an external fuel pump (eBay cheapie) in a gas can to do exactly this.. Original pump was rusted (or varnished..) solid. Ran it just long enough to check the motor, worked great and I've used the pump a few times to transfer gas..

Yeah, I'm now torn between trying that or trying the propane trick. No, I won't be driving around like the guy in the video... I just want the engine to run for several minutes.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-15-2012).]

With the Fiero you could just remove the cold air intake scoop on the outside body panel and set the propane bottle on the ground. Then shove the hose up the cold intake tube and open the valve. Turn the key and the car should start up, right?

Spoon

------------------
"Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut

TRY THE PROPANE!!

And let us know!! Love that video! May try on lawn mower some day.

I've spent a lot of time on this GT in the last month. If this engine runs with no apparent internal problems, I've decided that I'd probably be better off restoring this GT rather than swapping out its cradle to a different Fiero.

Which now brings me to today...

Well, I tried to run the engine on propane like the guy did in the video I posted above. However, instead of using a BBQ propane tank (I don't have a BBQ), I thought I could just use a regular propane tank normally used for soldering pipes. Didn't work. Not enough pressure. I even used two tanks. Still didn't work.

I'll post a video later that I shot of the engine trying to start. It wants to go, but there just isn't enough propane being fed to the throttle body. So close though!

The good news is that for the few seconds that the engine tries to run, it doesn't knock and it doesn't smoke. I'm getting more confident that this engine is fine.

Maybe I'll just bite the bullet and drop the tank and replace the fuel pump with an AC Delco EP378. Then I can proceed to troubleshoot the rest of the fuel system.

[EDIT#1] I want to get this show on the road, so I ordered this - NEW AC DELCO FUEL PUMP WITH INSTALLATION KIT EP378 for $49.95, which includes shipping. Seems like a heck of a deal.

[EDIT#2] Danger Will Robinson! Check out this thread - Should I be ticked off that the fuel pump I received is not what I ordered?.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-18-2012).]

why not get a squirt bottle and fill it with gasoline? inject it into the throttle body and it should run for 20-30 secs or so with the gasoline being constantly squirted in the motor..

quote Originally posted by gmctyphoon1992: why not get a squirt bottle and fill it with gasoline?

Or how about an IV, like in the hospital?

I was nervous enough with the propane! I don't think I want to be squirting gasoline into the throttle body of an unknown engine (which isn't timed properly yet) that could potentially backfire out the throttle body at any time.
I don't like the smell of burning flesh, especially my own!

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-27-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Or how about an IV, like in the hospital? I was nervous enough with the propane! I don't think I want to be squirting gasoline into the throttle body of an unknown engine (which isn't timed properly yet) that could potentially backfire out the throttle body at any time. I don't like the smell of burning flesh, especially my own!

I counter that offer with a Fire Suit!!



But your right I wouldnt want to see you or your fiero get caught on fire or burned in any way.. maybe run a hose from the squirt bottle to the throttle body so your a few feet away if your looking to take the risk without trying to burn yourself? anyways in either situation make sure you have a fire exinguisher on hand.. fiberglass and plastic panels goes up reall fast lol..

I personally like the idea of dropping the tank from a working fiero gt and using the tank and pump to just hook up the lines and connections to see if the good tank and pump will run your fiero..

[This message has been edited by gmctyphoon1992 (edited 06-27-2012).]

5 gallon tank - spare fuel pump in the tank - output of the fuel pump connected to the test port on the fuel rail - use a vice grips to control the fuel pressure so you don't dump all your 5 gallons into the Fiero tank.

I have driven for 60 miles this way to retrieve a truck.

quote Originally posted by gmctyphoon1992: I personally like the idea of dropping the tank from a working fiero gt and using the tank and pump to just hook up the lines and connections to see if the good tank and pump will run your fiero..

Man oh man, there's NO way I'd drop the tank on a working Fiero just to test the engine on another Fiero. That's WAY too much hassle. You're pulling my leg, right?

Dropping the tank on the project Fiero is bad enough. I'm not going to do it to a second Fiero as well.

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: 5 gallon tank - spare fuel pump in the tank - output of the fuel pump connected to the test port on the fuel rail - use a vice grips to control the fuel pressure so you don't dump all your 5 gallons into the Fiero tank.

There's a chance that I might attempt something like that, but if I have time to drop the tank before my eBay order (of the EP378) arrives, I'll just install the new fuel pump and cross my fingers.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: There's a chance that I might attempt something like that, but if I have time to drop the tank before my eBay order (of the EP378) arrives, I'll just install the new fuel pump and cross my fingers.

Yea I was using of sarcasm there.. just replace the fuel pump.. worst case senario you have a spare fuel pump to either sell to someone, or use in another fiero...

^ that was an edit for bad grammar

[This message has been edited by gmctyphoon1992 (edited 06-28-2012).]

quote Originally posted by gmctyphoon1992: I was using sarcasm there.. yes..

I almost thought you were serious, not that I considered following your "suggestion" for half a second.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: I'll post a video later that I shot of the engine trying to start. It wants to go, but there just isn't enough propane being fed to the throttle body. So close though! The good news is that for the few seconds that the engine tries to run, it doesn't knock and it doesn't smoke. I'm getting more confident that this engine is fine.

Okay, what you've all been waiting for... me making a fool of myself.

Not the most exciting video. Mostly the sound of my starter cranking and a view of my messy back yard. Anyway, the twenty minutes or so that I was trying to start the car have been thankfully reduced to less than three minutes here.

Man... It's been asleep for a long time. When it wakes up, it's gonna be mad!

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 06-29-2012).]

When you rub the lamp, be prepared for the genie!

cant wait to see her run.. the few seconds of run time sound healthy

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Man... It's been asleep for a long time. When it wakes up, it's gonna be mad!

I sure hope so!

quote Originally posted by crashyoung: When you rub the lamp, be prepared for the genie!

This GT is going to require a lot of "rubbing", but I enjoy the challenge.

quote Originally posted by gmctyphoon1992: cant wait to see her run.. the few seconds of run time sound healthy

Yeah, I was happy with what I've heard so far. You can be assured when I get the fuel pump installed that the camcorder will be running again for the initial start-up.

It's been a long time since I've updated this thread. Had a teeny-weeny problem with replacing the fuel pump , as discussed Here.

I've got a little something to show you all. Make sure you crank up your speakers!



She's alive! No smoke, no knocks... I'm pretty happy.

I've got a question on the fuel pressure though. The fuel pump will produce 40# of pressure with the engine not running (and hold it there for quite awhile). Once the engine is started, the fuel pressure (at an idle) drops to 33#, and it'll go up a few pounds when the accelerator is goosed. I expected it to be higher than 33# with the engine running. Is this fuel pressure acceptable? Would it be the regulator or the fuel pump which is the limiting factor here?

quote Originally posted by Patrick: I've got a question on the fuel pressure though. The fuel pump will produce 40# of pressure with the engine not running (and hold it there for quite awhile). Once the engine is started, the fuel pressure (at an idle) drops to 33#, and it'll go up a few pounds when the accelerator is goosed. I expected it to be higher than 33# with the engine running. Is this fuel pressure acceptable? Would it be the regulator or the fuel pump which is the limiting factor here?

Nothing is wrong. That's the way it's supposed to work. The regulator maintains a constant pressure differential between the fuel rail absolute pressure and intake manifold absolute pressure, which is exactly the working pressure the injectors "see." That's why there is a vacuum line connected to the fuel pressure regulator. Conversely, your gauge measures fuel rail pressure with respect to ambient atmospheric pressure, which is essentially constant.

40 psi with the engine stopped is a little low, but not enough to worry about yet. I think the GM spec is 44 psig (3 Bar) +/-10%. The fuel pressure gauge you're using may have some error of its own, too. The ECM will be able to compensate for fuel pressure slightly out of spec. As long as the BLMs remain near 128 there's no reason to be concerned.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 09-18-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: 40 psi with the engine stopped is a little low, but not enough to worry about yet. I think the GM spec is 44 psig (3 Bar) +/-10%. The fuel pressure gauge you're using may have some error of its own, too. The ECM will be able to compensate for fuel pressure slightly out of spec. As long as the BLMs remain near 128 there's no reason to be concerned.

Thanks Marvin. It'll be awhile before I'm driving this Fiero, so I'm not sure when I'll have some BLMs to look at... not that I ever really understood those (and a lot of the other) numbers.

I guess I was also concerned about the fuel pressure because of the fiasco I went through buying this fuel pump through eBay. I'm wondering if this grey market "Mexican" ACDelco fuel pump is simply substandard and doesn't have the balls that the one I paid for has.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: I'm wondering if this grey market "Mexican" ACDelco fuel pump is simply substandard and doesn't have the balls that the one I paid for has.

I empathize with your frustration, but if there is fuel returning from the pressure regulator to the tank the pump is capable of producing adequate pressure.

Okay, thanks Marvin!