As most of you probably know the input bearing/seal/sleeve for the Getrag 5 speed is close to impossible to find now. I have been looking at a possible solution for a long time now. My idea will change one dimension. So I am looking to see if anyone has any knowledge on this matter. My idea for a custom replacement Getrag input shaft bearing/seal/sleeve would mean the bearing/seal/sleeve assembly would stick out about 4-5 mm above the aluminum case than the OEM bearing/seal/sleeve which was close to flush (maybe .5-1.0 mm above the aluminum case). So my question is how much clearance does the throw out bearing have once a Getrag is installed on an engine. Years ago Jeremy told me the Centerforce pressure plate had fingers that sat lower than other clutches. I know when I installed my centerforce dual friction clutch I had a fair amount of swing backwards when moving the cast steel lever. So if I make these bearing/seal/sleeve assemblies and they stick out 4-5 mm farther than the OEM bearing/seal/sleeve will that be a problem? Possibly some clutch and pressure plates may not be useable with this? I'm sure they built in some extra clearance. Anyone?

My original topic on this: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/120285.html

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Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
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The answer lies in measuring the length of the cast steel lever throw moves (free movement) backwards with the trans on the engine with a new or very close to new clutch (as a clutch wears the lever moves back more towards the slave cylinder so this should be measured with a new or close to new clutch only). Knowing the length of the fingers on the cross shaft and knowing the length of the cast steel lever that distance can be calculated. Anyone?

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Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
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I have a relatively new clutch (Clutchnet brand) in my Fiero. I'll check that dimension when I get a chance.

I have an '88 GT stored with me with a brand new Rhino brand clutch so I can check on the back-throw as well later today.

I measured just over an inch of play (maybe 1.05"), as measured at the slave cylinder pushrod. And the actuator arm seems to have a radius of about 3.5". The radius measurement is not very precise, though. The location of the arm makes it difficult to measure in-car. Plus, the arm is bent in an S-curve.

Also, I forgot to mention the transmission is a FWD Getrag (HM282) with Fidanza flywheel and Clutchnet clutch set. The friction disc is a little thicker than stock, and has a solid hub. The slave cylinder and actuator arm are stock replacements.

Edit to add: a new clutch is a best-case scenario, as far as t/o bearing "elbow room" is concerned. As the clutch wears down, that room is going to shrink. That's where your clearance issues (if indeed there are any) will come to light.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 01-01-2012).]

I'm by no means an expert on this but unless the leangth some how interfied with the assy ie butted up against the disc and would't let the engine and trans mate then it wouldn't matter if it were longer or not. but I might be all wrong just a thought.

On the '88 I just measured with stock Getrag transmission, slave cylinder, and a new Rhino Pak pressure plate and friction disk, the outside edge of the release arm cup travelled 7/8" between the furthest disengaged position to the point where the release bearing butted up against the pressure plate fingers. What that translates to at the other end of the release arm will have to be measured by someone with one apart.

This is one reason I'm swapping in an F23 instead of the stock 282 Getrag we had here. But I don't think 4-5mm will hurt anything, it's not like it's going hit the pressure plate fingers if it was too long.

On a new clutch (of any brand), there will probably be plenty of room for that extra 4-5mm that Rodney mentioned. The question is how much that extra room shrinks as the friction disc wears. It would be great if someone with a worn-out clutch could make the same measurement that Blooz and I just did.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 01-01-2012).]

That's true, but you would only lose 3-4mm on a stock clutch that I know of. My point was, being 4-5mm longer doesn't make a difference because even if it was a worn clutch and the PP fingers were extended more, isn't the sleeve diameter smaller then the fingers so the sleeve would just go "into" the clutch somewhat?

I think Rodney is referring to the "shoulder" on the bearing/seal unit, not the sleeve. That would explain the concern for t/o bearing clearance.

quote Originally posted by mattwa: This is one reason I'm swapping in an F23 instead of the stock 282 Getrag we had here. .

Solutions like this will be OK for some Fiero owners but some Fiero owners will want to keep their Getrag.

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Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
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Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: I think Rodney is referring to the "shoulder" on the bearing/seal unit, not the sleeve. That would explain the concern for t/o bearing clearance.

Oh. Ok, sorry, my bad. I still don't forsee a problem.

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: I think Rodney is referring to the "shoulder" on the bearing/seal unit, not the sleeve. That would explain the concern for t/o bearing clearance.

Yes. In theory the throw out bearing (fingers on the fork) could possibly not retract back far enough thus applying pressure to the fingers on the pressure plate.

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Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

I would suggest we have detailed pics of this topic. I'm alittle lost reagrding some previous posts.

I am interested in this thread due to the fact I own 2 getrag trannies in my 88GTs. Could be infact a possible canidate for purchasing this part in the future.

Thanks,

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fierogt28

88 GT, Loaded, 5-speed.
88 GT, 5-speed. All original.

[This message has been edited by fierogt28 (edited 01-01-2012).]

You want pics? No problem

This is the input shaft and throw out bearing on a Getrag. Notice how the throw out bearing slides on a thin wall metal sleeve. That sleeve is an integral part of the input shaft bearing.



The problem is that the sleeve eventually breaks off the input shaft bearing, leaving the throw out bearing to flop around somewhat. The symptoms include a strange heavy vibration in the clutch pedal, but the clutch usually keeps working at least for the short term.



The OEM input shaft bearing has no shoulder on it, nor any backstop in the Getrag case to prevent the bearing from being installed too deep or too shallow. It was originally installed flush with the machined surface inside the bellhousing (ignore the bearing being installed in this pic because it has a shoulder).



What I believe Rodney is proposing is a bearing similar to the OEM one except that it will have a shoulder on it like this one and the one in the above picture (Edit: or perhaps a separate sleeve and bearing assembly):



Obviously the shoulder will stick out somewhat into the bellhousing so the question is whether there is enough backspacing behind the throw out bearing to accommodate the newer input shaft bearing with the shoulder. If the shoulder sticks out too much, it could potentially prevent the throw out bearing from being able to retract far back enough to allow the clutch to engage properly.

A note about the input shaft bearing with the shoulder in the above photos: I had a similar idea as Rodney and found what I thought would be a replacement input shaft bearing, only it had a shoulder. The sleeve had to be trimmed a bit shorter and the bearing obviously had the shoulder which I was concerned about as well. The problem I encountered was that the OD of the input shaft bearing turned out to be 2.5 thousandths of an inch larger than the OEM bearing. Thinking I had nothing to lose, I tried pressing it into the case but ended up seizing the bearing as it cinched into the hole.

Today, to buy a new input shaft bearing you pretty much have to buy an entire Getrag rebuild kit for around $225 like the one shown below:



(Edit: you'll have to be patient to see the pics... PIP seems to be down for now.)

[This message has been edited by Bloozberry (edited 01-02-2012).]

Archie responded and he says there is plenty of room for 5 mm or even much more.

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Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
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Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

quote Originally posted by Rodney: As far as I know as a clutch disc wears and gets thinner the fingers on the pressure plate move closer to the engine. Anyone?

Wait! Nooooo.

As the disk wears, the fingers protrude out, more. Towards the trans.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 01-02-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Wait! Nooooo. As the disk wears, the fingers protrude out, more. Towards the trans.

You are right. My mistake. So we would want to find those that have clutches at the end of their useful life.

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Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

quote Originally posted by Raydar: As the disk wears, the fingers protrude out, more. Towards the trans.

If this is true then at worst one would not be able to utilize (possibly in some cases) 100% of their useable clutch life if the cross shaft fingers (that push against the face of the throwout bearing) hit the special sleeve I would supply near the end of the life of the clutch. I'm looking at making a special tool to reduce the height of my special sleeve assembly when it is installed but that will certainly increase the cost of my kits.

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Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

I wonder if you could just push the bearing/seal unit a couple mm further into the tranny casing? The hole in the casing is a through-hole. There's nothing to stop you from pushing the unit further through. The only concern would be the clearance behind the casing.

Just a thought.

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: I wonder if you could just push the bearing/seal unit a couple mm further into the tranny casing? The hole in the casing is a through-hole. There's nothing to stop you from pushing the unit further through. The only concern would be the clearance behind the casing.

Does not apply to my design.

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Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

Thanks Blooze for posting some pics...

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fierogt28

88 GT, Loaded, 5-speed.
88 GT, 5-speed. All original.

hey rodney id b happy to b a test run on your bearing idea. i kinda missed the boat on your slave test run lol and id b very happy to better the lifestyle we have if anyone needs any dimms in a hurry text me at 8147017148 and ill get what i can asap as my trans needs overhaul anyway and its out of the car for now

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"Speed costs money. How fast do you wanna go?"

I'm making good progress. I mocked up the special tool and it was fairly easy to make. Not too expensive so it will be included in the kit and will not need to be returned. It was very easy to use. So this hurdle has been overcome. Finding the minimum clearance is still a concern: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/120440.html Knowing this will help with me with my design.

For now I am confident I will get this done and it will work. This needs to be done to save the Getrags.

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Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

very true very true man im trying to do a v8 swap on a low budget and can't afford to go the F23 route of any other for that matter since i aready have a getrag bought and now all thats holding me up is that freakin bearing lol. if it helps and you choose to mass produce the bearing i live in southern pa and there is a company that does this type of machine work mass production on the cheap (atleast for the area) thier name is leiss tool and die. the company i work for gets them to do thier machine work for gov contracts and trust me its great quality but they also do small orders too.... just food for thought

any word from rodney about this?

I have been working on this. The design is for the most part finished. There have been some challenges I have overcome. Some of the challenges I had to work on over a length of time to figure out what to do etc. Plus making special jigs etc. My engineer friend and I have been doing the CAD drawings and looking at dimensions and such. This has not been easy but it will happen. Unfortunately it will not be ready for a while yet. Might take more than a few months yet. Once we are 100% satisfied with the prototype and CAD drawings I will have the parts made. That will take some time. My fried travels some and only has a little free time here and there to help me on this on. It has to all fit etc. It will be a complete kit with special tools used to install them. Somewhat like my 3.4 drill jig kits. Once I have them ready I'll do a write up. It is a neat story and interesting kit.

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Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

The parts are finally finished and I should have some in a week or so. I will need to do some work on them and I should be able to post some pictures soon.

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Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

Hopefully you can bring something to Fierorama.

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Nick D.
'88 Fiero GT 5-spd
'03 Jetta GLS TDI 5-spd

[This message has been edited by npdimonte (edited 08-30-2012).]

SWEET! I can't wait to get ahold of one of these! I hope you have a big old order of these coming in lol they for sure will not last long. Any idea on prices yet?

I have 200 coming. They are sending me 4-5 sets right away so I can make some for R&D and such.The rest will get here in several weeks or so. My engineer friend and I spent many hours developing the prints so I hope they are all as they should be. We dissected everything to the nth degree so I hope all is good. If something was over looked this could take a few months more yet. But it will happen eventually.

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Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

I have machined parts on hand now. I had to order up some other parts etc which should all be here next week. I'll take some pictures soon. Chicago Fiero club show is Sunday so I have limited time to work on this. Hopefully I'll have some kits on hand in a week or two now.

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Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

Cool.

I'm in the process of pulling the Getrag from my 88GT to replace differential output shaft bearings. While I have it apart I'll see if I need these also. I am very interested and would like to save this Getrag if possible.

Thanks for the R&D work Rodney. Everything I've bought from you so far has been first rate.