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From one Paint Guy to another. Low cost PPG or DuPont? by Curlrup
Started on: 07-20-2011 04:27 PM
Replies: 23
Last post by: Curlrup on 07-23-2011 07:43 PM
Curlrup
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Report this Post07-20-2011 04:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CurlrupClick Here to visit Curlrup's HomePageSend a Private Message to CurlrupDirect Link to This Post

Hey folks!

I have been a professional painter for about 8 years now. I have sprayed a lot of top of the line paint systems in those 8 years. I am a model maker/prototype specialist. I make prototypes and models of up and coming consumer products. So I use automotive paints, I use regular autobody techniques just on smaller things. I have painted cars before. My question is I have only sprayed the top of the line products. from PPG and DuPont. I know they have some good basecoat clear coat systems with a yrethane clear that is mid-grade and a little more cost effective. I am looking to repaint my white 88 coupe and want to save some cash this time around. Last time I spent $700 in jsut primer, base and clear. Can you paint guys suggest a good mid grade system and know of a ballpark cost?

Thanks

Curly

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rmbrown09
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Report this Post07-20-2011 04:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rmbrown09Click Here to Email rmbrown09Send a Private Message to rmbrown09Direct Link to This Post

My face when Maaco offers a full paint job for $700

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josef644
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Report this Post07-20-2011 04:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for josef644Click Here to Email josef644Send a Private Message to josef644Direct Link to This Post

I use the Kirker Acrylic Urethane Enamel. Depending on the color you choose, around $50.00 plus hardener for your temperature range. I also use their primers and clear coat. Clear coat can be used in the final coat for extra shine, or a full clear top coat. I started using this for tractors, and have been so happy with it I use it for everything now. My silver 86 Coupe had Kirker Platinum Silver on the front fascia and read deck lid. It was a perfect color match. I have their Winter White I am gonna use on my 88 after I have it running again.

http://www.autobodytoolmart...el-paints-c-895.aspx

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Curlrup
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Report this Post07-20-2011 05:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CurlrupClick Here to visit Curlrup's HomePageSend a Private Message to CurlrupDirect Link to This Post

Kirker. Come to think of it I think I have heard of that. Sounds reasonable. Also that $700 was for primer ,base,and clear for PPG that I sprayed there was no Macco involved here.

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josef644
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Report this Post07-20-2011 05:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for josef644Click Here to Email josef644Send a Private Message to josef644Direct Link to This Post

Winter white is $44.99 for three quarts. Add activator ,$22.00, and you have a gallon.

Here is a shot of their Platimun Silver. Front fascia is shot with the Kirker urathane, matches perfect. Fenders and hood were factory paint.

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 07-20-2011).]

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JazzMan
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Report this Post07-20-2011 06:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManClick Here to Email JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManDirect Link to This Post

Another nod for Kirker. Painted my Formula with a converted base and clear, and my bike twice, once with a candy orange and once with a converted base and clear. They contacted me after reading about the bike somewhere else and put me in their gallery http://www.kirkerautomotive....asp?ID=382&SORT=220

Their paints and clears are a little cantankerous to work with, namely not too tolerant of newbie mistakes, but the results are good. Hardness of the clear is a little less than a top line clear, but at less than $100 for a sprayable gallon compared to $100+/quart for the top end systems I'm not complaining.

I get my Kirker products through http://www.autobodytoolmart.com , can't recommend those folks highly enough. Great service, fast shipping, and excellent prices.

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Tha Driver
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Report this Post07-20-2011 06:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tha DriverClick Here to visit Tha Driver's HomePageSend a Private Message to Tha DriverDirect Link to This Post

Kirker has made decent products in the past (I've used their "Wet look" additive in Acrylic Enamel back in the day), but I would NOT use Acrylic Enamel today.
I use Dupont Nason base/clear on daily drivers - over PPG epoxy (DP) primer. The Nason is cheap but holds up really well over the PPG epoxy.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

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Dodgerunner
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Report this Post07-20-2011 06:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DodgerunnerClick Here to visit Dodgerunner's HomePageClick Here to Email DodgerunnerSend a Private Message to DodgerunnerDirect Link to This Post

I'll give a nod to Nason base/clear also. I had not painted a car for many years and found it very forgiving and easy to work with.
This pic is two days after painting. Never color sanded.

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 07-22-2011).]

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Curlrup
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Report this Post07-20-2011 08:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CurlrupClick Here to visit Curlrup's HomePageSend a Private Message to CurlrupDirect Link to This Post

The Kirker is Enamel? Hmmmm...yeah I would like to stick to a base coat clear system. Nason, for Dupont. What is the PPG mid grade?

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Indiana_resto_guy
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Report this Post07-20-2011 09:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Indiana_resto_guyClick Here to Email Indiana_resto_guySend a Private Message to Indiana_resto_guyDirect Link to This Post

I use Nason paint for daily drivers as well.
Cheap, easy to use seems to hold up very well.
Their swift red is a perfect match for factory color.

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timgray
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Report this Post07-21-2011 06:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for timgrayClick Here to visit timgray's HomePageClick Here to Email timgraySend a Private Message to timgrayDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by rmbrown09:

My face when Maaco offers a full paint job for $700



That is also my face when I look at your Macco $700 paint job. Honestly, orange peel is NOT a feature. if the paint does not look like a mirror and the paint looks a deep wet color the paint job is not done right. I have never seen a Macco paint job that is any better than a 20 foot paint job.

I have had a lot of good luck with all of the modern 2K urethanes they are incredibly durable and if you sand and buff within the window printed on the can it works great. Not good for the side project that you might get to the sanding and buff in a few months.

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JazzMan
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Report this Post07-21-2011 08:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManClick Here to Email JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Tha Driver:

Kirker has made decent products in the past (I've used their "Wet look" additive in Acrylic Enamel back in the day), but I would NOT use Acrylic Enamel today.


Kirker products are catalyzed urethanes, not acrylic enamels. Just to be clear.

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JazzMan
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Report this Post07-21-2011 08:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManClick Here to Email JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Curlrup:

The Kirker is Enamel?


No. ThaDriver mispoke.

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rogergarrison
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Report this Post07-21-2011 11:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonDirect Link to This Post

I personally dont like Kirker. Its hard to get and keep a gloss. I used it for a while on my race cars because it was cheap and I needed paint work almost every week.

For my used cars and middle of the road stuff I use Sherwin Williams Dimension 4 basecoat and Finish 1 clear urathane. Both are pretty cheap for today. Clear is $100 for a gallon with hardener. Colors average around $20-25 @ pint. For my higher priced jobs, I use Diamont ( BASF/R&M). Theyre Limco Clear is about the same as SW, but colors are about double SW. Diamont is what a lot of the custom shops like Foose use for their customs.

PPG, Dupont, etc are just overpriced to me. Not that their not good, its just that they want more for stuff thats not any better in my opinion.( I dont buy Del Monte corn because it dont taste any different than Kroger brand for 1/2 the price.)

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 07-21-2011).]

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edfiero
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Report this Post07-21-2011 11:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for edfieroClick Here to Email edfieroSend a Private Message to edfieroDirect Link to This Post

Hope this doesn't turn into a bash Maaco thread.

I've had my Fiero painted both by a 'professional' and paid close to 2000 for it and I've also had the whole thing painted by Maaco for under 700.

The 2000 dollar job had slightly more attention to detail. (like less over spray). However was it worth 3 times as much.... absolutely not. For the price paid, I am happy with the results. The Maaco job still looks decent 3 years later. If I need to have it painted again in another 3 or 4 years, I will still be ahead of when I sunk all that cash at the 'respected' body shop.

[This message has been edited by edfiero (edited 07-22-2011).]

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Tha Driver
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Report this Post07-21-2011 01:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tha DriverClick Here to visit Tha Driver's HomePageSend a Private Message to Tha DriverDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:


No. ThaDriver mispoke.


Really? I said I had used a Kirker product in acrylic enamel back in the day, but I would not use acrylic enamel today. I did NOT say ALL Kirker products were acrylic enamel - did I?
~ Paul
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Tha Driver
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Report this Post07-21-2011 02:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tha DriverClick Here to visit Tha Driver's HomePageSend a Private Message to Tha DriverDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by edfiero:

Hope this doesn't turn into a bash Maaco thread.

I've had my Fiero painted both by a 'professional' and paid close to 2000 for it and I've also had the whole thing painted by Maaco for under 700k.

The 2000 dollar job had slightly more attention to detail. (like less over spray). However was it worth 3 times as much.... absolutely not. For the price paid, I am happy with the results. The Maaco job still looks decent 3 years later. If I need to have it painted again in another 3 or 4 years, I will still be ahead of when I sunk all that cash at the 'respected' body shop.


Most "respected" body shops will charge you 2 grand for a only slightly better job than the $700 Maaco job. They have to: they don't have school kids doing the taping & sanding & they pay more for paint (Maaco buys paint in large bulk). But it will last longer & look better longer (better sanding job & better paint). Now, if you had paid 3 grand + for it, you'd have a much better job & it would last even longer (assuming the shop IS reputable). If all you want is a "decent" looking car & then paint it every three years (or whatever) then Maaco is the way to go - except for all that paint buildup that will need to be stripped off at some point in time...
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Custom Fiberglass Parts

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Curlrup
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Report this Post07-21-2011 03:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CurlrupClick Here to visit Curlrup's HomePageSend a Private Message to CurlrupDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Tha Driver:


Most "respected" body shops will charge you 2 grand for a only slightly better job than the $700 Maaco job. They have to: they don't have school kids doing the taping & sanding & they pay more for paint (Maaco buys paint in large bulk). But it will last longer & look better longer (better sanding job & better paint). Now, if you had paid 3 grand + for it, you'd have a much better job & it would last even longer (assuming the shop IS reputable). If all you want is a "decent" looking car & then paint it every three years (or whatever) then Maaco is the way to go - except for all that paint buildup that will need to be stripped off at some point in time...
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"
Custom Fiberglass Parts


Agreed. The cost is all in the labor. Good skilled people are expensive.

Yes you did say you used enamel back in the day from Kirker. Sorry I misunderstood.

Roger I had no idea Sherwin Williams made anything other than house paint and Polane. I will have to look into that. Thanks folks all god suggestions.

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jw3
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Report this Post07-22-2011 02:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jw3Click Here to Email jw3Send a Private Message to jw3Direct Link to This Post

I did my last project with Nason base and Transtar clear and it came out virtually flawless. The pics are too large for Pennock's, but if you PM me your email, I can send full size pics and you will be amazed at the results. Or if someone knows how to resize pics so they can be uploaded here, let me know. Transtar clear cuts very easily and is very durable from my experience. Sorry for the 1/2 pic.

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Report this Post07-22-2011 04:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FirefoxSend a Private Message to FirefoxDirect Link to This Post

My opinion isn't worth much but I still wanted to drop it in....

PPG and DuPont are both rather expensive for a reason. Whether it's for overall ease of use, longevity, or compatability it's still more expensive than these other lines that are being listed. It's more expensive for those reasons and more. They are easy to use....they are easy to mix...they are easy to spray.....they are easy to adjust for temperature and spray coverage.....they cover well......they are compatable with older finishes and won't react with those old finishes if prepped right.....they are repairable.....they are able to be repainted over without stripping......and more.

Cost should not be much of a factor. Like most things in life you get what you pay for. Are you willing to buy cheap paint for a cheap job? It might look great right out of the garage but just wait a year and see what happens. Most of our friends and fellow owners don't wax their cars if they have a life. Time is an issue. Waxing gets put off when you have to cut the grass. Work gets in the way. Family gets in the way. Something gets in the way. The car never gets waxed exept for the wax that the car wash sprays out. Your cheap paint won't last without a lot of effort. It can be done but it's not easy. Cheap paint doesn't have the quality for longevity. It won't hold a shine if it's exposed to the harsh elements. It won't polish easily. It just won't last.

I've sprayed Kirker. I've sprayed Sherwin Williams. I've sprayed several different brands recently just to find out what these cheaper paints are like. I will never spray a customer car with anything other than quality paint because I have a reputation to protect. The kirker paint that I sprayed dulled out quick. The Sherwin Williams job was a nightmare to spray and it's taking a lot of polishing to keep the shine. The clear just can't seem to hold up well. These customers wanted to save money and now they have cars that look like Earl Sheib painted in a dusty shop. They left my garage looking great but just didn't last.

As a professional painter, I highly recommend good paint. That's just my opinion. Yes, it's more expensive but if good paint could be made to cost what cheap paint does they would have done that a long time ago. There are reasons not to buy good paint and it's not for everyone but don't expect a really nice paint job with inferior materials. I don't paint for a business anymore. I on;y do specialized painting. I have nothing to gain by suggesting good paint other than making sure that your choices are appropriate for your situation but I have a lot to lose by recommending and using cheap paint.

Again, you get what you pay for. As for my opinion, it's worth nothing more than the next guy. I just want everyone to be pleased and proud of their choices and results.

Mark the paint guy

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hercimer01
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Report this Post07-22-2011 05:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hercimer01Send a Private Message to hercimer01Direct Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by jw3:

Or if someone knows how to resize pics so they can be uploaded here, let me know. Sorry for the 1/2 pic.


Right click the thumbnail of the pic you want to resize, "open with ", "Paint" Once open, click on "resize" in the tool bar. Resize to 30% or so. "Save As" with a new name. It will leave the original and generate a new copy smaller.

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rogergarrison
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Report this Post07-23-2011 07:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonDirect Link to This Post

What Sherwin Williams clear did you try Mark. I use Finish One and dont have the dryback issue. Ive done some of my own cars with it and they stayed like glass for at least a few years. I never wax my own cars at all, just keep them clean. They sit out in the sun and under trees all day and I drive them in rain and snow year round. Ill usually run a buffer over them once in the spring just to get the accumulation of road crap off them for the summer. Nothing major, just like a 30 minute buff job. With the BASF, I use Limco clear with similar result. I have the Limco on my Super Bee thats been painted for 4 years now and still looks like it was painted last week.

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Report this Post07-23-2011 02:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kikinz24Click Here to Email kikinz24Send a Private Message to kikinz24Direct Link to This Post

i personally use dupont for customer restoration jobs, for most touchups i use nason... i persoanlly have used nason on all my own vehicles and i like it, seems to hold up well.. as for clear i stick to xtreme clear, it flows out nice very little to sometimes no orange peel, and its very durable.

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Curlrup
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Report this Post07-23-2011 07:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CurlrupClick Here to visit Curlrup's HomePageSend a Private Message to CurlrupDirect Link to This Post

The thing is yes the spendier stuff is easier to shoot, has a larger application envelope, can be reworked easier. However, I have and will always have a paint booth and the experience to deal with a system that has a tighter application envelope. If it wears out I will just repaint. Just gives me an excuse to try something new. Right now my priorities are things other than the Fiero. I love my Fiero but it is not enough of a priority throw all of my cash at it. If it was a 1971 351 Boss Mustang yes it would get the best job in the world and I would not be doing it.
Anyway, looks like Nason is a good bet.

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