a shop hooked up guages to my car and i do have a small leak somewhere.. the problem is noone will check for leaks on a r-12 system . i still have not converted and dont want to start throwing money at this if i dont even know where the leak is coming from.. ive been to shops all week and none not even pep boys will add the dye to check for leaks since im still r-12

what can i do..can i just put the fittings on for r 134 and throw a can of dye in there ( just to check for the leak not to fill the system )...

what are my options here..

Chances are it's an O-ring, and if you're going to take it apart to replace them, you might as well replace the accumulator and orifice tube, put on R-134 connectors, drain the old oil from the compressor, put 4 oz of Ester oil back in, re-assemble, pull a vacuum on the system, and then fill it with R134a. Oh, and put another 4 oz. of Ester oil in the new accumulator.

If you have a very small leak, and the R-12 charge is still almost full, and the system is otherwise functional, I'd keep it R-12. Quest makes a stop leak for R-12 and R-22 systems called Super Seal, it's available on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...fPartsQ5fAccessories

The correct way to fix it would be to find the leak and repair it, using an electronic leak detector and/or UV dye, but some people use stop leaks.

It's a major hassle for shops to handle and service R-12 systems, and it's a much bigger money maker to convert the old system to R-134A. Win-win for them.

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ: The correct way to fix it would be to find the leak and repair it, using an electronic leak detector and/or UV dye, but some people use stop leaks.

I would seriously recommend NOT using any of the A/C stop leak products.

Here is a photo of an orifice tube removed from a 87' Fiero GT A/C system that had stop leak added to it:
(Yes it was out of my car and NO I wasn't the one that put the stop leak in )

Note that the majority of the orifice tube screen material is now blocked by stop leak goop.
The photo was taken *after* the part had been rinsed in solvent. Prior to that you couldn't even see the screen material through the goo built up on the end.
This is *not* the "black death" caused by a seized or failed compressor, it's simply an mess of "stop leak" that effectively shut off the filter screen on the orifice tube.
Choking off the filter screen resulted in the A/C system going from "just leaking a little somewhere" to being completely inoperative.

The short story is, If you have leak, find it and FIX IT properly.
The stop leak products are very likely to cause you more problems judging from what I have seen.


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[This message has been edited by randye (edited 07-12-2011).]

Convert to 134a and don't use stop leak. That stuff is like "fix a flat"...hardly ever works anyway.

quote Originally posted by randye: I would seriously recommend NOT using any of the A/C stop leak products.

I do agree, but it is difficult for the average DIY'er when no shop will touch your car.

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ: I do agree, but it is difficult for the average DIY'er when no shop will touch your car.

We are both on the same page.

You mentioned that "some people" use stop leak and I just wanted to clarify that those "some people" are likely causing themselves more problems.

Last summer I completely overhauled my entire Fiero A/C system after I got quotes from A/C shops anywhere from $1200 to $2000
My total "DIY" cost ended up at approx. $425 and I now have my own vacuum pump and mainfold gages AND the knowledge to maintain and repair the blasted thing myself.
I also know that I did it with much greater care and attention to detail than any commercial shop would have.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 07-12-2011).]

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ: I do agree, but it is difficult for the average DIY'er when no shop will touch your car.

i never said i was planning on using stop leak... i am saying that i am in new york and NO shop will add dye and check for leaks since i am r 12 system... and hopefully it is just an o ring but how will i know this until i check for leaks with the dye added..

thats why im asking what are my options. it wouldnt be too smart on my part to just go out and buy a dryer/ accumulator o rings orifice . then to find out its the compressor . if its the compressor then im going to leave it as is and tough it out.
thats why i was wondering if i can add just one of those cans of r 12 or r134 with dye in it already.. just to check for leaks not for trying to recharge my system...

thanks for all the replies thus far but this is what i need answered..

Do a visual inspection yourself at all the fittings you can access. Start at the front checking the condenser connections which are easy to get to once you jack the front driver side of the car up a little, then check the fittings under the hood and move to both ends of the hose assembly at the compressor as well as taking a good look at the compressor also. There is a good chance you will see a dirty residue of some sort built up at those points if there is a leak there.

You may also want to check with autozone and see if they have an R12 sniffer they can loan you if there's still refrigerant in the system.

I just had my condenser repaired today after my own carelessness. $40 for a teardrop of aluminum over a pinhole. My system is 134 though.

quote Originally posted by freedom0226: ... i was wondering if i can add just one of those cans of r 12 or r134 with dye in it already.. just to check for leaks not for trying to recharge my system...

First, you cannot legally buy any amount of R-12 unless you have an EPA "609" certificate. R-12 is still available in the U.S., but only to someone with an appropriate EPA certificate. Anyone with a certificate and the required equipment can legally charge your A/C system with R-12, though.

It is also illegal to vent R-12 to the atmosphere, so the "required equipment" includes some means to safely recover refrigerant from a partially charged system. Many A/C shops will do that at no charge, since they can sell recovered R-12 to a licensed refrigerant recycler.

IMHO, the best way to locate a refrigerant leak is using an electronic "sniffer." If you can't borrow one from a local auto parts store, you can buy one new from Harbor Freight for about $80. The "soap bubble" method can also be used to detect even small leaks in tube/hose joints, as long as they are readily accessible and visible.

A common place for a leak to develop that hasn't been mentioned is the compressor shaft seal, which often starts leaking slowly if the compressor is not used for an extended period. That's why some systems will hold a charge all summer but then mysteriously lose their charge over the winter. Other places for leaks to develop are: the hose connections and pressure switches on the rear head of the compressor, any other hose or tube connection points, the condenser, the evaporator, and the Schrader valves in the service ports..

Finally, DO NOT mix different refrigerants and/or refrigerant oils. It's EITHER R-12 or R-134a, never both in the same system.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 07-12-2011).]

So what were the low and high side readings when you took the car in? Was the system partially charged, or completely empty? If the car still has R-12 in it, you CANNOT just open up the system and dump it into the atmosphere. If it's empty, this is the perfect time to convert over to R-134A.

If the system still has R-12, you can buy R-12 compatible AC dye, and use a dye injector to put it into the system, and use it to check for leaks. Once you're found the leak, you will still need to have the system evacuated before you can then fix the leak.

http://ctd4ac.com/oil.html

Here's a nice video on a basic hose replacement, that explains a few other helpful things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pflucFXDuCU

quote thats why i was wondering if i can add just one of those cans of r 12 or r134 with dye in it already.. just to check for leaks not for trying to recharge my system..

You CANNOT add a can of R-134A with UV dye to an R-12 system. Never seen a can of R-12 with UV dye already in it, but even if you find one you'd need EPA Section 609 certification to buy it. Which isn't difficult, got mine ~ 5 years ago.

http://www.epatest.com/

Does anyone have some part numbers for some of this a/c stuff? any ebay deals?

the system was already dry. he filled it with shop air on the low side. all looked promising then five minutes later it dropped a good amount so thats why i said small leak.. this blows.

quote Originally posted by revin: Does anyone have some part numbers for some of this a/c stuff? any ebay deals?

My list for my 1987 GT:

Remanufactured HR6 compressor from Factory Air / 4 Seasons, PART NUMBER: 57255 ($160.99)
Variable orifice tube, (normal climate) from Factory Air / 4 Seasons, PART NUMBER: 38902 ($20.99)
New accumulator, (receiver - dryer), from Factory Air / 4 Seasons, PART NUMBER: 33181 ($29.19)
2 terminal, high pressure cut-off switch from Factory Air / 4 Seasons, PART NUMBER: 35974 ($27.00)
2 terminal condenser fan switch from Factory Air / 4 Seasons, PART NUMBER: 35969, ($29.79)
134a o-ring conversion kit from Factory Air / 4 Seasons, PART NUMBER: 26735 ($5.49)
New A/C belt from Dayco, PART NUMBER 15370, (probably switch to Dayco, #13780 per a tip in this thread...) ($15.00)
8 ounce bottle of 100 viscosity Ester oil labeled to be approved for R12 to 134a conversion ($7.00)
A small bottle of UV dye, a small amount, (< 1oz.), of which is to be added to the Ester oil for leak checking later. ($4.00)

PARTS TOTAL, (excluding A/C flush chemicals) = $299.45

I bought almost 100% of the parts from my local Advance Auto Parts

Harbor Freight Vacuum pump and manifold gage set = Approx. $110 (on sale and with coupons)

TOTAL: $409.45

Note that I did not include the cost of the 134a refrigerant, so you need to add that cost to the parts total, but even with that you should be well under $500 total.

I was WAY off on the total figure I gave earlier in this thread. My aging memory isn't what it used to be, so I edited the total in the earlier post
The estimates from the commercial A/C repair shops are accurate though... the shock burned them into my memory!

You can see my A/C compressor replacement thread here:
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/107037.html

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 07-12-2011).]

quote Originally posted by freedom0226: the system was already dry. he filled it with shop air on the low side. all looked promising then five minutes later it dropped a good amount so thats why i said small leak.. this blows.

Well that makes it easier, then, no R-12 to deal with.

Replace the accumulator and orifice tube, remove the valve cores on the high and low side fittings, and install the new R-134A fittings. Get a vacuum pump and gauge set, and vacuum down the system. Chances are it won't hold, and one or more of the o-rings is bad. Go around replacing o-rings until it holds vacuum for at least an hour. If it still doesn't hold vacuum, but it's a slow leak, add some refrigerant with UV dye, and go around trying to find the leak with a UV light.

Another possible problem is compressor incompatibility. The DA6 compressor originally used on 84-85 2.5's and on 85-87 2.8's is not recommended for conversion to R-134. Neither are some of the V5 compressors used on the 2.5 88's. Many have converted systems using the older compressors with no apparent problem. It may or may not work for you but it isn’t recommended by GM per the EPA.

V5 compressors have a control valve in them that can be changed to one for R134a. You can get one here, and that's all you need to make it work.

quote Originally posted by randye: My list for my 1987 GT: Remanufactured HR6 compressor from Factory Air / 4 Seasons, PART NUMBER: 57255 ($160.99) Variable orifice tube, (normal climate) from Factory Air / 4 Seasons, PART NUMBER: 38902 ($20.99) New accumulator, (receiver - dryer), from Factory Air / 4 Seasons, PART NUMBER: 33181 ($29.19) 2 terminal, high pressure cut-off switch from Factory Air / 4 Seasons, PART NUMBER: 35974 ($27.00) 2 terminal condenser fan switch from Factory Air / 4 Seasons, PART NUMBER: 35969, ($29.79) 134a o-ring conversion kit from Factory Air / 4 Seasons, PART NUMBER: 26735 ($5.49) New A/C belt from Dayco, PART NUMBER 15370, (probably switch to Dayco, #13780 per a tip in this thread...) ($15.00) 8 ounce bottle of 100 viscosity Ester oil labeled to be approved for R12 to 134a conversion ($7.00) A small bottle of UV dye, a small amount, (< 1oz.), of which is to be added to the Ester oil for leak checking later. ($4.00) PARTS TOTAL, (excluding A/C flush chemicals) = $299.45 I bought almost 100% of the parts from my local Advance Auto Parts Harbor Freight Vacuum pump and manifold gage set = Approx. $110 (on sale and with coupons) TOTAL: $409.45 Note that I did not include the cost of the 134a refrigerant, so you need to add that cost to the parts total, but even with that you should be well under $500 total. I was WAY off on the total figure I gave earlier in this thread. My aging memory isn't what it used to be, so I edited the total in the earlier post The estimates from the commercial A/C repair shops are accurate though... the shock burned them into my memory! You can see my A/C compressor replacement thread here: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/107037.html

Great list Randye, I used it myself and everything works great THANK YOU!!!

I really like the variable orfice as it smooths out the cool output trhough the vents when at idle.

Thanks Again
Kevin

quote Originally posted by Kevin87FieroGT: Great list Randye, I used it myself and everything works great THANK YOU!!! I really like the variable orfice as it smooths out the cool output trhough the vents when at idle. Thanks Again Kevin

I'm glad it all worked for you Kevin. Thanks for the compliment.
When I started tinkering with my A/C system I didn't have a clue what I was doing really but I was sure I could learn.
Having every commercial shop give you ungodly estimates all the way up to $2000 was all the motivation required.

I found that none of the A/C work was difficult, just tedious in some places, and the satisfaction of feeling that COLD air coming out of the vents and knowing you did it yourself is...well.....COOL

quote Originally posted by randye: I would seriously recommend NOT using any of the A/C stop leak products.

I would have to agree. A/C is ~125psi when the compressor is not running. and up to ~300psi when running. nothing in a can is going to seal that