I've seen on here that PPG Epoxy Primer is highly recommended. Problem is I can’t find it locally. There is one place that has it but they are total idiots and I’d rather go elsewhere….i called them to get a price on it and they wanted the part number because they “have several to choose from”. When I asked for advice they told me “they don’t know, they sell it not use it” ??? So unless you have the part numbers for the PPG, what’s the next best alternative? It has a bad paint job so I’ll be sanding down to the original primer. Minimal bodywork, just a chip or two on the hood and the typical spots on the roof. Doors, fenders, nose & tail are good to go other then bad paint. Also do i need just a "primer" or a "sealer" as well?

PPG DP40 is one I've used before. I first got it from a friend, then from a local paint and body supply that stocked it. I haven't bought any in 8 years, though. The last epoxy primer I used was Kirker brand, got it from http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/ .It sprayed a little thicker than the PPG but otherwise seemed just as good. It comes in a couple of colors: http://www.autobodytoolmart...uro-prime-c-891.aspx

Remember, epoxy primer isn't mandatory for a plastic car, for that matter isn't mandatory for a metal car. I wouldn't use it unless I was trying to deal with a problem on a base coat or on a bare and metal prepped car panel.

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 05-24-2011).]

I used PPG Shopline JP202 2K Primer Surfacer.

I have yet to see how it holds up, but I put it on the front and rear fascias, and it seems to be flexible enough to be handled without cracking. I didnt add any flex additive, but it says you can if you want. It is PPG additive JX993 Flex Additive. Has anybody else used this primer?

Matt

I found a thread I had saved, Paul (Driver) lists DP50LF, with DP401LF catalyst. I called the jerk place back and they want $55 for a quart or $178. for a gallon! Wholly crap that’s expensive!!!!
The 2 part acrylic/clear paint kit costs about that much! Yikes!
http://www.paintforcars.com...ar_sperjetblack.html

I have no problems with Evercoat Lacquer Primer/Surfacer. It works for me on flexible bumpers just fine as long as its done lightly. Ive used it for 40 years on everything from VWs to Lambos. Price recently went up....cost me $35 @ gallon now and $10 for a gallon of lacquer thinner to make 2 gallons of sprayable primer. Dries in 20 mins. I even use it with a sanding block to fill smaller dents or ripples. Catalyzed primers have given me nothing but grief. Driver will argue with me, but Im not going to bother getting into it with him again. (I secretly think he works for or owns stock in PPG, ). The ONE thing I would use it for is to coat a rusted older car body thats not going to be painted for a year or two. It dont absorb water like lacquer primer will. I generally dont put a car outside ever if its primered till its got its finish coat done. Of course a plastic car throws all that out the window since it dont rust anyway. Locally, a lot of shops I know around me tried catalyzed primers and went back to lacquer too when they run into problems in their shop. Biggest gripe they have is you have to spray it like a final paint coat. Car needs bagged and in the booth to be primered. If you dont, the primer overspray gets on everything permanently and has to be sanded off. Lacquer I can spray anywhere, even right next to another car, over and over and its dry before it gets a foot away from the surface. Any overspray you might get on something wipes off a week later with just some thinner. A shop working on 10 cars at once cant afford to keep moving each car in and out of the booth 3 times a day to spray a spot of primer. I could go on and on, but you get the idea. It is your choice in the end.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 05-24-2011).]

Watch out on some of the epoxy primers they have poor adhesion if you shoot the color outside the curing window. I shot a sherwin-williams epoxy primer and it had crap adhesion on a flexible panel. color would peel right off or crack when bent or flexed. Luckily I was able to take the sample piece to the paint shop and get my money back on what was left of the gallon and the activator. ALWAYS test what you buy before covering your car in it.

Thinking more about it, in your case (assume you're painting a Fiero because you're here) you just need to sand away the rotted paint until you get to solid basecoat. You can tell because it will sand different, better in a way. Sand until the cracks in the paint are gone. Use an orbital and an air file, orbital for detail work and air file for bulk removal on large flat areas like the roof and hood. The base primer was black, so if you sand down to where you see black and don't go through to the plastic underneath you'll have a fairly level surface to work with. Then you can spray on a surfacer-primer, I recommend catalyzed urethane high-build products, block and wet sand until perfect with 400, and you're ready to paint.

The factory primer is the best, taking it off when it's not failed then replacing with new is asking for problems, especially since the plastic under the primer sands super easy. You can ruin a panel in a heartbeat by blowing through the factory coatings, or if not ruin, cause yourself a whole lot of extra work repairing the surface that got damaged.

The epoxy isn't really useful here, I'd consider it to be expensive overkill with little or nothing to gain by using it.

Some folks think lacquer primer sticks as well as epoxy. It doesn't. Just like epoxy glue holds better than Elmer's. One is air dry the other is catalyst-hardened. Epoxy sticks better than the 2k shtuff too.
I ALWAYS use PPG epoxy on everything (even though I don't own PPG stock ), despite it's cost because there is nothing better. Better adhesion, better coverage (one coat is all you need on a smooth surface), better hold-out, better sealing. We just painted a heart-shaped wedding arch & we used PPG epoxy on it. (& Fiero white )
If you have a smooth surface you can seal it with a coat of the DP & shoot the paint 30 minutes later without sanding. For a REALLY smooth surface you can sand it with 400 grit wet - after giving it at least a couple days to dry (it's sticky shtuff).
I painted my BMW without sanding the DP: http://angelonearth.net/BMW.html
Other epoxies are not as good either. I've had experiences with them.
The different numbers of the DP (40, 50, 90) are just different colors. If you use the 401 catalyst, you get the best flexibility, but you have a 20 minute induction period (get & read the tech sheet).
TO the OP: that's cheap crap paint don't use it on a nice car (I wouldn't use it on anything but my go-kart). For the cheapest GOOD paint, I use Dupont Nason base/clear. It's what's on the BMW too.
Any questions?
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Custom Fiberglass Parts

I'm in the same situation. I've searched through threads and everyone uses something different so I'm confused as well. In this thread alone there's 5 differing suggestions leading me to believe that almost any higher quality primer/paint/clear product will turn out a good paint job if the prep is correct and you read the instructions. The need for very careful prep work is the only thing the same in every thread.

quote Originally posted by 02greens10: I'm in the same situation. I've searched through threads and everyone uses something different so I'm confused as well. In this thread alone there's 5 differing suggestions leading me to believe that almost any higher quality primer/paint/clear product will turn out a good paint job if the prep is correct and you read the instructions. The need for very careful prep work is the only thing the same in every thread.

The difference is in the durability, mostly. The epoxy primer will make a good paintjob last for decades - many decades - left out in the weather. You don't have to use primer at all if you just want something that looks good for a year or two, or maybe even a few. It's been argued before that it doesn't matter 'cause no one keeps their car forever, well the work that I do is good enough to hand down a few generations. When it's done right, it adds value to the car for a long time to come. The PPG will also be more flexible & make the bumpers a little more chip proof than any other method/primer. With all the time it takes to prep one right, I just can't see cutting corners on the primer. Yeah if you're doing a "scuff & douche" job then who cares? Skip the primer, buy the crapo paint & make it shine for a few months. Just remember you have to strip all of that off when you decide to do it right.
As for prep, if you don't use primer you need to sand the car with 400 wet as a final sand, or 320 dry on a DA. If you're epoxy priming it you can sand it with 180 dry on the DA, prime & paint. Any flaking/peeling clear needs to be sanded off down to the base color. Any non-factory paint needs to be stripped off - by sanding, stripper, razor blade, whatever. You'll get a lot of argument on using stripper too... (but I use it without any problems).
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Custom Fiberglass Parts

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: TO the OP: that's cheap crap paint don't use it on a nice car (I wouldn't use it on anything but my go-kart). For the cheapest GOOD paint, I use Dupont Nason base/clear. It's what's on the BMW too. Any questions? ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver" Custom Fiberglass Parts

Well here's the deal; The paint job on the car is shot and it looks like total crap. I can’t/wont drive it looking like it is.
I want to try and do a panel off paint job myself.
I'm no expert and am not expecting show car results, I’d like it to come out like a show car but this will be my first solo paint job so I’m being realistic.
And I’m on a tight budget.
A big problem is that NJ has some strict laws about do it yourselfers painting cars at home (illegal and they are not supposed to sell you paint unless you’re a shop) therefore I can’t find many paint suppliers in my area, even fewer that are helpful.(see above)
So my options are; go to AutoZone and get some quarts of Duplicolor Primer Surfacer, paint, clear.
Or do a mail order.
The place I listed above is about an hour away so I could go get it myself and not wait/pay for shipping and is about the only reason I was thinking about it.
And like 02greens10 said, everybody has a different opinion so it’s very confusing.

Edit to add; Why do you say the paint in the above link is junk? Have you used it before or know somebody who has? Just wondering, not saying your wrong or anything just that if it is I'm back to square none.
And FWIW I do value all your opinions obviously or I wouldn’t ask.

[This message has been edited by DLCLK87GT (edited 05-25-2011).]

Nason epoxy primer - $ 79 for a full gallon of primer WITH Hardener. been using it for 15 years, no problems

My body shop teacher, with over 30 years of experience in the field in both his own shop and working for a major vehicle manufacturer, tells me that Nason is crap, or at least the very low end of the quality range of known name brands.

Here's the basic premise. Your existing paint layers look like this:

Failed clear
Possibly failed basecoat (color)
Possibly good basecoat (color)
Factory primer
Surface coating on the SMC (rigid parts) or RIM (flexible parts)
Actual material of the body panel or part.

You're objective is to remove the failed layers down to the good layers, wherever they may be. You do this by sanding, using 180 or 220. I would recommend a beginner use 220 because it sands slower and that gives you time to catch mistakes like sanding all the way through to the base material. Once you're done sanding, your layers will look like this:

Sanded good basecoat or factory primer
Factory primer (most areas)
Surface coating on the SMC (rigid parts) or RIM (flexible parts)
Actual material of the body panel or part

Because all coatings have thickness you need to have a fairly consistent amount of sanding over large areas. If you just sand in spots you'll wind up with waves and wallows in the final paint that will be visible when the gloss is final. Now, 180 and 220 sanding marks will absolutely show through paint, so you need to apply what's called a surfacer-primer. These primers are fairly thick and are easy to sand. Put on coats as recommended by the manufacturer and allow to cure. I highly recommend a catalyzed urethane-based product. Spray on a guide coat, it's a contrasting color of primer from a rattle can, just dust all the areas you surface-primed. The intent is to sand with 400 wet-dry with water trickling through the sanding. The guide coat will remain in any low spots such as chips, etc, and make it easy to tell when you're done sanding. Once you're done, you paint. This is what your coatings will look like:

Clear coat
Base coat (color)
Sanded surfacer-primer
Sanded good basecoat or factory primer
Factory primer
Surface coating on the SMC (rigid parts) or RIM (flexible parts)
Actual material of the body panel or part.

Some details:

All edges of the paint should be out of the weather. If paint adhesion fails, it's always going to start at the edges.
Remove trim, handles, moldings, badges, etc. Panel off is best because it makes masking and edge control oh so much easier.
Leave the roof and rear clip on to paint, risk of parts breakage is fairly high.
Wipe with a silicone/wax remover before sanding initially, and before all priming/painting steps.
Epoxy under the paint may or may not improve adhesion; if you're using a decent catalyzed urethane it probably won't be any better with it than without.
Epoxy under the paint will not have any effect on how well the paint withstands the weather and the sun. How can it, it's *under* the paint and the clear.
The clear-coat is where the UV protection and weathering properties are, the base coat only provides color. (On two-stage paints. On single stage UV and weather are in the color coat.)
Buy enough paint and clear to do 1.5 cars, plan on repainting some panels as you figure out the paint's personality and your own techniques.
Sanding quality is where your paint succeeds or fails. While sanding, wet the surface and look how the light reflects off the water sheen, it'll look the same with the paint.
Squeegee while wet-sanding, imperfections will show up as water streaks, spots, etc, left behind.
If a panel still has good quality paint, scuff it with grey Scotchbrite and paint, no need for priming/sanding. Scuff until zero shine left. New paint will not stick to shiny old paint for crap.
Best to use priming/sanding where serious failure has occurred.
Overspray will travel between layers of masking paper, make sure all edges are fully taped shut.

Everyone has their own techniques, what works best for them. Painting is a fairly individual exercise.

Thanks Jazman and Lou6t4gto but this is exactly what i'm talking about;

quote Originally posted by Lou6t4gto: Nason epoxy primer - $ 79 for a full gallon of primer WITH Hardener. been using it for 15 years, no problems.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: My body shop teacher, with over 30 years of experience in the field in both his own shop and working for a major vehicle manufacturer, tells me that Nason is crap, or at least the very low end of the quality range .

One person says “this stuff is great”, the next “that stuff sucks”. sort of like these cars themselves

I understand the principal of painting and how prep work is 90% of the job, the rest is an art or skill. It’s going to be a panel off, everything that can be removed will be (trim, emblems etc) I know I have to remove the old clear, crappy “new” paint and get down to the old base/primer. DA, wet sand, dust coat all that I get, pretty straight forward. The problem is the paint/primer. There are 2 places near me and 1 has “the good stuff” according to some but they are total A-holes and expensive. The other place was very helpful but possibly the paint sucks…
Getting to the point where I just want to go to AZ, get a couple quarts and do it. If it sucks I’ll know to NOT get that brand again. LOL, maybe I should get a quart of each brand and do 1 panel each, see which lasts the longest and looks the best.
Ultimately my plan was (like this whole car) to do it myself as practice if you will, so when the GT is done I’ll know what I’m doing and that one, I want show car quality. This one, I want it to NOT look like the steaming plie of s***t it is now.

[This message has been edited by DLCLK87GT (edited 05-25-2011).]

quote Originally posted by DLCLK87GT: Edit to add; Why do you say the paint in the above link is junk? Have you used it before or know somebody who has? Just wondering, not saying your wrong or anything just that if it is I'm back to square none. And FWIW I do value all your opinions obviously or I wouldn’t ask.

A local paint supplier sold me some of that crap a couple years ago. I told them I wanted to save money on this particular car & was thinking about using Nason & they said it was about the same. It's not. The clear dried so hard it couldn't be buffed. No way to buff out the 2000 grit scratches. I had to sand & re-shoot the WHOLE car & it was a '65 CHRYSLER (HUGE CAR!). Clear that hard will also be chip prone.
Nason is the low-end (as mentioned above) Dupont brand but it shoots well & holds up well. I used it on my ZX, & on the last coat I ran out so I finished with Sikkens. Couldn't tell a difference where I left off. Of course the $400+ a gallon Sikkens WILL hold up better, if you want to spend the money, but the Nason is the best cheap paint I've found.
If you prep it well, use the epoxy, & sand & buff it when you're done, then you should get a show quality paint job. Paint with panels off is the best way, but if you're shooting metallics you have to hang all the panels in the same orientation they are on the car or the metallic will settle differently & the panels won't match.
Never use grey scuff pads before painting. They are equivalent to 1000 grit. If you're going to use scuff pads, use the red ones (~400 grit). But it's much better to just wet sand with 400.
EDIT: Nason epoxy primer may be OK if you sand & paint the day after using it, but a friend used it on a car I had to paint a couple months later & it was the HARDEST thing I've ever seen on a car. I had to sand it with DA & EIGHTY GRIT WET just to cut it to re-prime. I wouldn't (won't!) use it.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Custom Fiberglass Parts

[This message has been edited by Tha Driver (edited 05-25-2011).]

If you are a home paint guy and a DIY painter, you don't want 2 part epoxy type paint of any description. It contains nasty chemicals and requires specific ventilation with proper filtration to use.

On top of it, your paint job on a plastic car is not dependent on the weather beating ability of the primer. It is directly dependent on the weather beating ability of the finish coat.

The standard off the shelf primer, gray or red, your choice will do just fine. I've never had a problem and I'm 61 years old and I've been painting cars since I was a teenager.

Chose your color/clear well. I have used Nason, and it was not great. I find the best luck is with lacquer.

You can buy premixed lacquer and it is very forgiving. You can clear over it quickly, even when it is still tacky.

If you need to touch it up, the new laquer will blend and dissolve itself into the old lacquer. You can re-coat even years later.

And, it stands up to sun and weather and does not dull any worse. In fact, if you get wear on the paint, you can put fresh clear coat over it with minimal work, any time you need to.

For home applications, visit Duplicolor vendors and you will be best served.

And yes, it is my opinion, and I'm right.

Arn

------------------

Man this has got to be worse than asking, is it ok to cut a round off my coil springs or is it OK to hoist my car by the deck-lid latch.

As far as i can tell nobody in NJ carries Dupont Nason. I think i actually have an unopened gallon of grey Nason primer at home....wasn't really thinking about using it because i wanted to get it all from 1 place at 1 time so there are no compatibility issues.
So it's the bargain brand from the nice guys @ paintforcars.com
Or another mail order place.
I’d just assume skip the D-bags that are selling the PPG. Nothing against thepaint, just them.
So much for starting it this weekend.

Lacquer is not NEAR as durable as urethane! If you don't believe me then paint two panels & leave them out in the weather & prove it for yourself. I used to do show cars in lacquer - back in the '60s when all we had was lacquer or enamel.
Can you paint the car with lacquer & have it come out looking good? Yep. Will it last if you don't wax it once a week (or keep it in a garage)? Nope. Simple as that.
DLCLK87GT: with the above (your last post) so much for doing a practice run for a show quality job. It really sucks you don't have access to decent materials.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Custom Fiberglass Parts

http://pc.dupont.com/dpc/en...locator/locator.html
(didn't know your city or zip)

[This message has been edited by Tha Driver (edited 05-25-2011).]

Sanding, if there are ANY imperfections in your old paint they will be there in the new paint. you must repair the paint FIRST before you even think of painting. scratches, pitting, bad clear coat, cracks, spiderwebs. all of it will be there in all it's shiny glory if you repaint the car without fixing them. so sand until they are gone, spray a primer coat and sand some more.

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: Lacquer is not NEAR as durable as urethane! If you don't believe me then paint two panels & leave them out in the weather & prove it for yourself. I used to do show cars in lacquer - back in the '60s when all we had was lacquer or enamel. Can you paint the car with lacquer & have it come out looking good? Yep. Will it last if you don't wax it once a week (or keep it in a garage)? Nope. Simple as that. DLCLK87GT: with the above (your last post) so much for doing a practice run for a show quality job. It really sucks you don't have access to decent materials. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"

Sure plastic is more durable than lacquer, however, try to fix a scratch with plastic paint. You'll paint the whole panel. Fix with lacquer and you can blend it.

Did I hear you to say that painting with 2 part epoxy paint without approved safety ventilation equipment is ok? Is it safe to paint in your garage or on the back lawn without a proper ventilated booth? Does the home owner have paint baking booth equipment.? I didn't think so.

What I am saying is that for the home painter, lacquer works fine, is safer to use, and easier to repair mistakes. For most applications it wears just fine for the length of time you'll own the car. And, when it comes time to repaint, it is just so much easier.

Arn

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: Not perpetuating the argument, but what does that tell you? When doing production work & you get epoxy primer on another car even the overspray STICKS A LOT BETTER THAN LACQUER. [/URL]

In that case, its NOT that it sticks better, its that it HARDENS and you cannot remove it without sanding it. You can get it off glass and chrome with a razor blade or steelwool though. Everything Ive taken in with epoxy primer as either peeled or cracked before customer even picked it up. One of my cars inside mirror bracket fell off the glass from heat. So far none of the epoxies or even the kit for that has stuck for more than a day after following directions to the letter. I might as well have used Elmers glue. My mirror is still sitting on the passenger floor.

hey lets not turn this into a beotch fest! all opinions are welcome.
Yes this is what I've been saying, nothing local or nothing tha twill sell to joe home painter. (will check out that Dupont link further, thanks!!!)
Ok so here’s what I have in stock (don’t ask); all new & unopened that I picked up at a tech school closing last year.
1 gallon of Dupont Nason Universal Primer Surfacer, 421-05 pastel gray.
1 gallon of Dupont Chromaclear #77795 multi mix, panel and overall clear coat
And several gallons of paint, wrong colors for this car so not important.
So lets start off with that…is it any good or junk that I need to bring to the local HAZMAT collection yard?

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: Sure plastic is more durable than lacquer, however, try to fix a scratch with plastic paint. You'll paint the whole panel. Fix with lacquer and you can blend it. Did I hear you to say that painting with 2 part epoxy paint without approved safety ventilation equipment is ok? Is it safe to paint in your garage or on the back lawn without a proper ventilated booth? Does the home owner have paint baking booth equipment.? I didn't think so. What I am saying is that for the home painter, lacquer works fine, is safer to use, and easier to repair mistakes. For most applications it wears just fine for the length of time you'll own the car. And, when it comes time to repaint, it is just so much easier. Arn

Well it's been argued here before several times: I can blend urethane no problem. (look it up & you'll find my directions on how to do it)
All I use is a mask: I don't have a booth & no way to bake it. Baking only gives it a quick-dry anyway so production shops can send it out the door.
But yeah if you're only looking for a short-term gloss (only going to own the car for a couple years) you can get away with lacquer. But then to do a good urethane job to make it last you have to strip all of that off. I just hate to see someone backing up when painting a car after all the work that goes into prep.

OK so the clear is a 4 to 1 mix
But I finally found a shop with somebody who was willing to talk to me and (of course) has another take on what I need to get. He says he's got everything I need, all part of a Dupont Chromaclear(?) paint system. It's going to run me about $295 for everything. To start off with; a qt of high build urethane primer that I can thin and use as a regular cover primer or thin some more and use as a sealer. Plus a quart of flexible panel/adhesion promoter, a quart of black and a quart of clear and the reducers and hardeners and this and that and special pixy dust that will make the car go faster.
He said he had to order in the primer because he only had gray and suggested that I get black to make the final coat look better which makes sense to me. For right now I’m just going to start cleaning and sanding and then go get the primer and a complete list of everything he says I should get (including the pixy dust J ) and I’ll list it up here when I have it tomorrow. It sounded like he may have been trying to add in everything he could think of even if I don’t really need it but who knows (not me that’s why I’m posting this). Flex agent? I though that wasn’t needed? Will it hurt if I use it?

[This message has been edited by DLCLK87GT (edited 05-26-2011).]

quote Originally posted by DLCLK87GT: hey lets not turn this into a beotch fest! all opinions are welcome. Yes this is what I've been saying, nothing local or nothing tha twill sell to joe home painter. (will check out that Dupont link further, thanks!!!) Ok so here’s what I have in stock (don’t ask); all new & unopened that I picked up at a tech school closing last year. 1 gallon of Dupont Nason Universal Primer Surfacer, 421-05 pastel gray. 1 gallon of Dupont Chromaclear #77795 multi mix, panel and overall clear coat And several gallons of paint, wrong colors for this car so not important. So lets start off with that…is it any good or junk that I need to bring to the local HAZMAT collection yard?

Use the paint to practice with. Do you have the proper catalysts/activators and reducers (if required) for the paints and primers you have? Mixing different brands of paints/activators usually results in a mess. The Nason primer/surfacer is probably fine as long as it's not too old, has it ever been opened? If not, it's probably still good. By old, I mean 3-4-5 years if it's been opened, especially if the can wasn't sealed well.

Honestly, if you're hell-bent on painting by this weekend and you don't have materials or decent local suppliers, and haven't already started prep and sanding you're not going to get it done. If you set artificial and too short deadlines you're just asking for problems. I know, my first car I did the same thing, wasn't a pleasant or productive experience.

I still recommend autobodytoolmart.com as a good place to order supplies, and their Kirker line of paint has proven to be durable in my experience. A little cantankerous to apply so technique is important, but value for dollar can't be beat. I always order by phone, call the toll-free number, punch for sales and get Pablo or Elaine. Order takes a minute because they know their stuff, ships same day, and gets here in two-three days max. The couple of times I've had a problem they made it right immediately, no hassle or question. I rate their service top-notch, which is why I keep going back.

Anyway, I wish you luck.

Ive got several friends/customers with 60s cars I painted 30 years ago in lacquer. They still show them every weekend. I allways done my own show cars and customs in lacquer and I NEVER wax them ever. I will wipe a quick layer of polish on once in a while to remove contaminants and oxidized paint. All my cars sit outside year round except when Im working on them. My Coronet sits buried in snow all winter and all the spring rain and hot sun. It does have R&M basecoat/ clearcoat. It was also primered with Evercoat lacquer primer. When im going to a show I do clean it up the day before and put a cover over it so dew doesnt leave water spots all over it and its ready to go the next morning.

Since I started painting in high school back in early 60s, I have yet to ever have a car come back from peeling or cracking problems. I have always used lacquer primer/ surfacer except for the few disasterous times I tried new stuff. The primer I use is self etching...which means it 'burns' itself into the metal where any catylzed primer ive seen just sets on the surface. It can be proven by just leaving some lacquer primer in your paint gun for an extended period and it will eat up the siphon tube and cup inside. I have to buy a new primer gun once a year. That being all said, if you prepare the surface right, spray the primer and finish coat you should never have a peeling problem. Lacquer paint will also 'burn' or melt into lacquer primer. I will give you that basecoat uranthane paint will NOT do this, only stay on the surface because it is not as 'hot' as the lacquer. This is why you can spray urathane or enamel over laquer, but CANNOT spray lacquer on top of them. They will react just like paint stripper with the enamels bubbling up. You can however put lacquer over HARDENED urathane if you do not over wet it, but thats sort of pointless.

On small little repairs, I do put lacquer clear over urathane basecoat colors if the car needs a quick return. Something like painting a fender flare, mirror or gas cap. It will stick just fine since most basecoat colors are essentially lacquer anyway (the reason they air dry in 10 mins). I can clean out the gun and immediately install that dry part and not have to spend a day watching it dry.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 05-26-2011).]

quote Originally posted by DLCLK87GT: OK so the clear is a 4 to 1 mix But I finally found a shop with somebody who was willing to talk to me and (of course) has another take on what I need to get. He says he's got everything I need, all part of a Dupont Chromaclear(?) paint system. It's going to run me about $295 for everything. To start off with; a qt of high build urethane primer that I can thin and use as a regular cover primer or thin some more and use as a sealer. Plus a quart of flexible panel/adhesion promoter, a quart of black and a quart of clear and the reducers and hardeners and this and that and special pixy dust that will make the car go faster. He said he had to order in the primer because he only had gray and suggested that I get black to make the final coat look better which makes sense to me. For right now I’m just going to start cleaning and sanding and then go get the primer and a complete list of everything he says I should get (including the pixy dust J ) and I’ll list it up here when I have it tomorrow. It sounded like he may have been trying to add in everything he could think of even if I don’t really need it but who knows (not me that’s why I’m posting this). Flex agent? I though that wasn’t needed? Will it hurt if I use it?

1) You don't need the adhesion promoter.
2) You'll have to sand the primer, & it won't be near as flexible or adhere near as well as epoxy. If you thin it too much. you'll sand it all back off & it won't serve any purpose. You can't thin it & use it for sealer without sanding it.
3) You need some flex agent to go in that primer (any primer except epoxy) on the rubber bumpers.
4) Doesn't matter which color primer you use if you put on enough paint to cover. Lt. grey would be fine. If you use black primer (especially on your first try) how will you know if you've put the paint on evenly & enough to cover?
5) I like using the pixie dust but those little bastards keep expecting me to feed them & let them out of the cage once in a while.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Custom Fiberglass Parts

Jazzman; i don't expect to paint it this weekend, that's just not going to happen even if i HAD the material. Plus I wasn't planning on painting it all at once, just maybe the hood and fender in 1 shot, then the nose and a door, then the other door and rear bumper etc etc as i have limited inside space to do the painting. Figured I'd sand, then prime and while the primer was curing, start sanding the next part. But I have yet to actually purchase anything.

Roger; i've painted a couple cars years and years ago with lacquer and yes it was easy and looked great. But it's getting harder to find lacquer now-a-days, old stuff. Heck, in this state i'm finding it hard to get anything that doesn't rattle! But I've decided that 'm not going with lacquer, i want a 2 stage urethane.

Diver; i figured as much on the adhesion promoter but he said it was also a flex agent...or possibly that was yet another thing he had. I'll see if they have an epoxy primer as my 1st choice but if not i'm getting what they have. Money isn't an issue right now because all i'm getting is the primer....i may bite the bullet and go back to the a-hole store and get a qt there for $75 or whatever crazy price it was but not sure...right now my wife and I are just enjoying the 90* temp, my 5 day weekend and sanding everything 1 part at a time - oh joy!
edit; if i go back, what exactly do i need for the PPG primer? (Black) part numbers and a breif description please and thank you. LIke i said before they are NO, repeat NO help and if i don't tell them exactly what i want right down to the size, part number and what shelf it's on they WILL NOT help me. Thanks in advance.

[This message has been edited by DLCLK87GT (edited 05-26-2011).]

Adhesion promoter and Flex Agent are both snake oil. Ive tried both. Flex was originally for Edura bumpers on GTOs and Firebirds because GM used only lacquer for their factory paint jobs and its too hard and brittle for a rubber bumper....it didnt work then either. You might as well throw dollar bills out your window. I agree lacquer is getting nearly impossible to find although I can get it for all years of vintage Corvettes when they want original paint. I do paint my own cars with basecoat/clearcoat urathane now because you really have no other choice. I use SW or RM/BASF only.

I use primer/SURFACER so I can finish sand a panel perfectly. Ive never gotten a repair so perfect with the filler that I could just spray a sealer on it and paint it. I can get away with that on a dealers old used car. If Im fixing some damage on a panel on a high end car, i often prime and block sand and reprime 15 or 20 times before Im satisfied enough to put color on it.
I spent months just block sanding primer on my Coronet. Panels on it (and there long) were as straight as a ruler.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 05-26-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: If you are a home paint guy and a DIY painter, you don't want 2 part epoxy type paint of any description. It contains nasty chemicals and requires specific ventilation with proper filtration to use.

I think you are confusing epoxy with catalyzed urethane.

Most epoxies are relatively benign, both with respect to their health effects and their environmental effects. The primary health risk with most epoxies is contact dermatitis (due to the presence of amines in most epoxy formulations), and allergic sensitivity to the fumes once a person has become sensitized through contact. Avoiding skin contact and wearing a chemical vapor respirator will usually suffice.

On the other hand, most catalyzed urethanes contain isocyanates (i.e. cyanide compounds), which are powerful nerve toxins. Inhaling urethane vapors can be fatal, and a positive pressure fresh-air breathing apparatus is essential for safety.

Always read and follow the manufacturer's recommended safety precautions. Some paint materials can kill you.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 05-26-2011).]

quote Originally posted by DLCLK87GT: Diver; i figured as much on the adhesion promoter but he said it was also a flex agent...or possibly that was yet another thing he had. I'll see if they have an epoxy primer as my 1st choice but if not i'm getting what they have. Money isn't an issue right now because all i'm getting is the primer....i may bite the bullet and go back to the a-hole store and get a qt there for $75 or whatever crazy price it was but not sure...right now my wife and I are just enjoying the 90* temp, my 5 day weekend and sanding everything 1 part at a time - oh joy! edit; if i go back, what exactly do i need for the PPG primer? (Black) part numbers and a breif description please and thank you. LIke i said before they are NO, repeat NO help and if i don't tell them exactly what i want right down to the size, part number and what shelf it's on they WILL NOT help me. Thanks in advance.

The adhesion promoter is for things like door jambs where you can't reach to sand, for folks that don't take the cars apart to paint them (I won't mention any names). Doesn't really apply to Fieros anyway.
If you use epoxy you don't need the flex agent. If you use a 2K urethane or lacquer, you do need flex on the bumpers - in spite of what Roger says. Primers that dry & are not flexible WILL crack on the rubber bumpers if you flex them at all without flex agent.
I think the correct number for the black epoxy primer is DP 90 (I use DP 50 grey). You'll want the DP401 catalyst for the most flex on the bumpers (you can use it on everything). Mix is 2 to 1. I think I pay about $150 for a gallon & $80 a qt. for the catalyst.

Anyplace I can spray paint on, I can sand or scuff. A scuff pad will go anywhere you can see or feel. I have to redo a lot of jobs (especially bumpers) where other shops use adhesion promoter instead of bothering to sand it. Customer wants to know why his new bumper peels off to bare plastic when he goes in the car wash. I can make good money by spending $5 in the car wash and stripping the bumper completely. I get to start over on a virgin untouched bumper. Almost anytime you hit a bumper it needs painted. Usually its from a licence plate. I had to repaint a bumper on a new Jaguar because a guy leaned on the car in neutral and pushed it slightly into a wall. Only way it dont is if it matches up perfectly to whatever it hits and neither have anything attached to them. Flex agent evaporates within a week or so after paint is applied anyway. Thats why it never worked on GTOs. It may help you intall a part freshly painted but thats it. Urathane paint is more flexible on its own anyway.

ya know....I think i got taken for a ride....I went to the paint store and they sold me;
1 qt of Xtreme High Build 2k primer #5424,
1 qt Kleen Strip Bulldog Adhesion Promoter
1 qt 5 Star Flow Star Urethan Reducer #5665
and a tiny little bottle of Xtreme High Build Activator all for $150!
Now that i have the stuff i see that i can get it online for less than 1/2 the price. .... I feel stupid.
Is the stuff any good at least? I wonder if i should bring it back or lesson learned and don't go back.
http://www.5starautobodypro...om/primers/5424.html

Man, painting my old mustang was a snap compared to this, sand down to metal, bodywork, prime, sand, spray with lacquer, enjoy.

quote Originally posted by DLCLK87GT: ya know....I think i got taken for a ride....I went to the paint store and they sold me; 1 qt of Xtreme High Build 2k primer #5424, 1 qt Kleen Strip Bulldog Adhesion Promoter 1 qt 5 Star Flow Star Urethan Reducer #5665 and a tiny little bottle of Xtreme High Build Activator all for $150! Now that i have the stuff i see that i can get it online for less than 1/2 the price. .... I feel stupid. Is the stuff any good at least? I wonder if i should bring it back or lesson learned and don't go back. http://www.5starautobodypro...om/primers/5424.html Man, painting my old mustang was a snap compared to this, sand down to metal, bodywork, prime, sand, spray with lacquer, enjoy.

5star makes a very good product. I have used them in the past and the finish is very good. Just make sure to prep the part very well and the finished product will turn out very nice.