i know the original fiero fuel pump won't work with the 3800. but will it at least start it and idle? i ask this because my swap was ready to try to be started. so i tried to turn it over and it worked. but it only ran for about a second. is that because of the pump or do i have another problem?

it should be able to Idle, if you had the V6 pump and not the 4cyl. Would it start back up ? Would it start again later ? Was your PCM reprogrammed ?

If you don't have the passkey programmed out of the PCM, or a passkey emulator, the PCM will only run the engine for a few seconds.

You didn't specify 4cyl or a V6 pump. Also, it is it a 3800NA or a 3800SC? I'm not saying its ideal or appropriate or whatever, I never looked into the details, but my sister has been driving her 3800NA on a 2.8 pump with no issues.

as far as im aware the v6 pump should be fine because thats what they use for the 4.9 conversions and i would assume v8 would take more fuel than a 3800

quote Originally posted by Niterrorz: as far as im aware the v6 pump should be fine because thats what they use for the 4.9 conversions and i would assume v8 would take more fuel than a 3800

4.9's and most other MPFI V8's don't require as much fuel pressure as 3800 Series 2 engines do. The stock fuel pressure regulator used in all 3800 Series 2 engines (SC and N/A) is rated at 3.5 bar; or ~50 psi. That's the pressure it will command with no vacuum or boost acting on the regulator. Add boost, and the pressure goes up about 1 psi per pound of boost. Most GM MPFI V8's commonly used in Fiero swaps will never see fuel pressure go as high as 50psi. The higher the fuel pressure, the harder the pump has to work; and stock GM pumps put out less and less volume of flow of fuel as the pressure increases.

Will a stock Fiero V6 fuel pump be able to start and idle a 3800 engine? Yes; as long as it can pump at least 35 psi. But it will struggle to supply enough fuel to even a 205 hp 3800 Series 2 N/A engine at WOT; and it certainly won't be enough for a 3800 Series 2 SC engine at WOT.

-ryan

------------------
OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED

Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com

So you're saying the stock Fiero fuel pump cannot support >180 rwhp?

It would be fine for a naturally aspirated 3800 as both the 88 Fiero and 89 Bonneville 3800 use the same pump rated in the area of 14.4 gph at 50.8 psi. Since there is reserve above that you might getaway with using it on the series I in stock trim but I wouldn't count on it since the 92 Bonneville pump flows 27.6 gph at 50.8 psi. If that isn't a shocker, here's one that suggests you do research instead of assume based on the vehicle; The 89 Pontiac Firebird Turbo 3.8 fuel pump is rated at 18 gph and 65 psi. Nearly 10 gph less, yet many have recommended it for boosted applications.

If I'm not mistaken the returnless fuel systems found on some modern cars now do not use a vacuum modulated fuel pressure regulator. A vacuum signal is not required for proper fueling of a boosted motor with a proper tune for its fuel system design. I'd expect constant pressure at all times would be better to manage anyway.

You can get specs for pumps at NAPA online.

http://www.napaonline.com/S...101992+50060+2060004


High pressure is important for good fuel atomization so that's something to think about also.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 02-18-2011).]

a 2.8 pump will work flawlessly on a stock 3800 NA.

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: So you're saying the stock Fiero fuel pump cannot support >180 rwhp?

A 20+ year old stock Fiero 2.8 fuel pump? I have my doubts. A brand new one? Perhaps.

ok i didn't think id spark so much interest. but thanks for all the responses.

sorry about the lack of details. the pump is from an '84, so it was a 4 cylinder. and its running a 3800 sc.

right now the issue is that when i start the engine, it only runs for a second then dies. but it will start back up if i crank it again. so i wanna know if it's the pump or if i have other problems. like i already said, i know you shouldn't use that pump for that engine. but I'm not trying to do anything with the car. no driving no gassing it. just start and idle. i have no money right now, so i was just wondering if i could leave the pump in for now and worry about other stuff on the car. then when the time comes and i have the money. swap the pump.

[This message has been edited by 07Hoffmannd (edited 02-18-2011).]

I'm surprised you got it to do ANYTHING with a low pressure 4 cylinder pump in it.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: 4.9's and most other MPFI V8's don't require as much fuel pressure as 3800 Series 2 engines do. The stock fuel pressure regulator used in all 3800 Series 2 engines (SC and N/A) is rated at 3.5 bar; or ~50 psi. That's the pressure it will command with no vacuum or boost acting on the regulator. Add boost, and the pressure goes up about 1 psi per pound of boost. Most GM MPFI V8's commonly used in Fiero swaps will never see fuel pressure go as high as 50psi. The higher the fuel pressure, the harder the pump has to work; and stock GM pumps put out less and less volume of flow of fuel as the pressure increases. Will a stock Fiero V6 fuel pump be able to start and idle a 3800 engine? Yes; as long as it can pump at least 35 psi. But it will struggle to supply enough fuel to even a 205 hp 3800 Series 2 N/A engine at WOT; and it certainly won't be enough for a 3800 Series 2 SC engine at WOT. -ryan

wow ok i just learned some vital information thanks +1 for you

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: I did some math using your numbers. 14.4 gph x 6 (weight in pounds of 1 gal of gas) = 86.4 lb/hr @ ~50psi. The Brake Specific Fuel Consumption (BSFC) of the typical N/A gasoline engine is about 0.5. I have a formula that shows how to calculate the amount of HP a given amount of fuel flow will support based on BSFC. (flow / BSFC = HP supported) Take 86.4 lb/hr of fuel divided by the BSFC which is 0.5 and you will find that this pump you cited will only support about 172.8 hp according to the fuel consumption / HP formula. The 89 Bonneville 3800 Series 1 engine only produced 165hp, at it did it at a lower than 50psi maximum fuel pressure. So you tell me, will a fuel pump that can only flow 14.4 gph at ~50psi be enough for a 205hp 3800 Series 2 N/A engine? Not according to the formula. The EP381 pump will support 299 hp on a L67 engine which has a BSFC of about 0.65. If this pump were used on an N/A engine (that had a BSFC of 0.5), it would support about 390hp assumming you were running the same fuel pressure (~60psi) which you probably aren't. All electric fuel pumps flow more volume at lower pressures, so it would likely support more than 390hp on a N/A engine. -ryan

Those aren't my numbers, they're NAPA's numbers.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Pressure directly affects how much volume of flow your injectors produce. The lower the pressure, the lower amount of volume your injectors will flow, and the less HP they will support.

If and only if the injector pulse width remains constant, and we both know that is not the case for our cars. Flow is controlled by the pulse width, so if you lower pressure within the system limits the ECM acts and pulse width will simply increase to compensate resulting in the same fuel quantity through the engine to maintain stoich, etc.


We have to put things in perspective here. The pumps flow capacity does not drop with pressure increase, unless you try to force it to operate outside its capacity overheating it and burning it up. It's all relative, for example, I guarantee that if you go and crimp your return hose, pressure will peak and flow through the injector will increase all else the same. As long as fuel is bypassing the regulator you can keep upping the pressure until you out pace and over come the bypass flow, with fuel through the injectors, or burn up the pump. That's exactly what vacuum modulated regulators do otherwise we'd need to disconnect the signal to avoid leaning out the engine under boost.

The pumps are not installed into fuel systems operating at their limits on startup or at WOT so there is a good bit of reserve.

I just posted the values listed for the pumps to show it's not safe to assume based on application alone.
I never suggested a naturally aspirated pump for any of the 3800SC engines mentioned, I just showed that the NA 3800 and 2.8L used the same pump at one point regarding the remark suggesting the stock 2.8 pump might not be enough for the NA 3800.

If the pump can flow enough for the application with or without boost, it just doesn't matter. Proper application as far as the system in place is concerned goes without saying. Of course the non vacuum regulated pump would have to be accounted for in the tune.

Regardless of how it's broken down by us using theoretical BSFC numbers, it is what it is from the factory.

Hardly anyone changes their fuel pump when boosting a naturally aspirated stock engine to give some idea of what the stock pump is capable of. Only the rated spec is provided, not the pumps limits. The 89 Turbo TA cranks out 250 hp and 345 lb/ft with a pump rated for 18 gph and 65 psi. If the stock Fiero pump can flow that amount at 65 psi it would work and we don't know that it can't, only what it was rated at.

It's all good.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 02-18-2011).]

ok so i figure its the fuel pump. just just to show you, heres what it does.

(excuse the talking in the video. my dad does not know how to use a cell phone camera )

You need a fuel pressure reading but that could indicate a fuel pump failure as one possibility.

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: If and only if the injector pulse width remains constant, and we both know that is not the case for our cars. Flow is controlled by the pulse width, so if you lower pressure within the system limits the ECM acts and pulse width will simply increase to compensate resulting in the same fuel quantity through the engine to maintain stoich, etc.

First off the computer is only going to vary pulse width to maintain stoich based on O2 sensor signals at idle and part throttle. When we are talking about reaching a fuel pump's maximum output, it is a given we are talking about WOT operation in which case the O2 sensor signal is ignored as the engine isn't running at stoich AFR. And the computer is simply going to command the same injector pulse width for a given MAP or air flow and RPM. It won't be able to compensate for anything unless you have a computer that can use a wideband O2 signal and has the capability to change the injector pulse width to compensate for what it sees in the wideband AFR reading.

Injector flow depends on pressure AS WELL AS pulse width. Basically, it takes 4 times the pressure to double the amount of flow thru a certain size injector. So if I had injectors that flowed 20 lb/hr at say 20psi, if I increased the fuel pressure to 80 psi those same injectors would flow 40 lb/hr (if they could still operate at that higher fuel pressure).

quote We have to put things in perspective here. The pumps flow capacity does not drop with pressure increase, unless you try to force it to operate outside its capacity overheating it and burning it up.

Fuel pump flow output does indeed decrease as pressure increases and increases as pressure decreases. Here's a graph based on data given by someone who tested the EP376 fuel pump showing how much HP it can support based on fuel flow it produces based on PSI of pressure:



Notice how the amount of HP it can support increases when the pressure decreases? Notice how HP supporting capability decreases as pressure increases? Why is this? Answer: because flow output changes inversely with pressure, even within the pump's normal operating range.

quote It's all relative, for example, I guarantee that if you go and crimp your return hose, pressure will peak and flow through the injector will increase all else the same.

Yes, as long as the injector can still open at the higher pressure. There is a limit to how much pressure a given injector can open against.

quote As long as fuel is bypassing the regulator you can keep upping the pressure until you out pace and over come the bypass flow, with fuel through the injectors, or burn up the pump.

Yes but the injectors can only handle so much pressure and as you increase pressure the volume flow output of your full pump will decrease; thus it will support less and less HP.

quote That's exactly what vacuum modulated regulators do otherwise we'd need to disconnect the signal to avoid leaning out the engine under boost.

Please rephrase this statement, it didn't make any sense.

Fuel pressure regulators are designed to maintain a certain pressure in the fuel system (whatever the factory sets it to). Regulators that are vacuum referenced maintain the same amount of pressure drop across the injector (from inlet to outlet) regardless of manifold pressure. For example, let's say we have a 50psi fuel pressure regulator. Turn the key on but don't start the engine. There's going to be 50 psi of fuel pressure in the rail and 0 psi pressure in the manifold. 50 psi drop. Start the engine and let it idle. Pressure in the intake manifold drops to -10psi which is a vacuum. Vacuum acts on the fuel pressure regulator and brings fuel rail pressure down to 40 psi. 50psi drop. Run the same engine with 10psi of supercharger boost pressure in the intake manifold. Regulator will increase rail pressure to 60 psi. 60psi at the inlet of the injector and 10psi at the outlet (intake manifold) = 50 psi drop. See where I am going with this?

quote The pumps are not installed into fuel systems operating at their limits on startup or at WOT so there is a good bit of reserve.

In stock applications I will agree. But install a pump that is not capable of supplying enough fuel to a high-HP engine and while it may have some operating reserve at part throttle and idle, it probably won't have enough at full throttle when the engine is going to demand it.

quote If the pump can flow enough for the application with or without boost, it just doesn't matter. Proper application as far as the system in place is concerned goes without saying. Of course the non vacuum regulated pump would have to be accounted for in the tune. Regardless of how it's broken down by us using theoretical BSFC numbers, it is what it is from the factory. Hardly anyone changes their fuel pump when boosting a naturally aspirated stock engine to give some idea of what the stock pump is capable of. Only the rated spec is provided, not the pumps limits. The 89 Turbo TA cranks out 250 hp and 345 lb/ft with a pump rated for 18 gph and 65 psi. If the stock Fiero pump can flow that amount at 65 psi it would work and we don't know that it can't, only what it was rated at.

Who's to say the flow numbers provided by NAPA are accurate for all pumps used in that application? Could it be possible the pump you have flows more than what NAPA sells? Sure. You wouldn't know what your pump flows unless you actually tested it.

Just because people "hardly" do something doesn't mean they are doing it right. You should know better since you should know that most people on this forum have absolutely no idea what is going on in their engine or with their tune. A lot of people just slap something on their engine and run it without checking anything. That's why I made the statement that a fuel pressure test done at WOT should be checked to make sure their fuel systems can keep up with the demands of their engines. That is just as important as hooking up a wideband O2 to check the tune at WOT. But if the fuel pump can't keep up with the damands of the engine, simply changing the tune to command the injectors to open more isn't going to make the fuel pump output more volume.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Who's to say the flow numbers provided by NAPA are accurate for all pumps used in that application? Could it be possible the pump you have flows more than what NAPA sells? Sure. You wouldn't know what your pump flows unless you actually tested it. Just because people "hardly" do something doesn't mean they are doing it right. You should know better since you should know that most people on this forum have absolutely no idea what is going on in their engine or with their tune. A lot of people just slap something on their engine and run it without checking anything. That's why I made the statement that a fuel pressure test done at WOT should be checked to make sure their fuel systems can keep up with the demands of their engines. That is just as important as hooking up a wideband O2 to check the tune at WOT. But if the fuel pump can't keep up with the damands of the engine, simply changing the tune to command the injectors to open more isn't going to make the fuel pump output more volume.

You're taking this way to seriously and it would go on to the point of pointlessness (I feel we're already there) if we illuminated every little qualifier added, or omitted, to make our points. For example, I specifically stated capacity (what it's capable of) doesn't change with pressure not flow. I also stated, "if you lower pressure within the system limits" in regards to compensation of pressure changes. We do quite a bit here based on "will it work", not "is it the right way" (who ever determines that), otherwise we all would have some things to change about our project approach.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 02-18-2011).]

if i could close this topic i would. arguing is not helpful and almost none of you are answering the questions of the original poster. oh... that's right... that's me

thanks to those who were helpful. sorry this turned into one of THOSE threads

and to those who might want to know. apparently you can not run a 3800 sc with the 2.5 pump. even if it's just to start and idle.

[This message has been edited by 07Hoffmannd (edited 02-18-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 07Hoffmannd: if i could close this topic i would. arguing is not helpful and almost none of you are answering the questions of the original poster. oh... that's right... that's me thanks to those who were helpful. sorry this turned into one of THOSE threads and to those who might want to know. apparently you can not run a 3800 sc with the 2.5 pump. even if it's just to start and idle.

Debate is good and the bulk of the topic was addressed. Through your post you know that the 2.8 pump can support a naturally aspirated 3800 and it should at least idle a 3800SC and that you need to check your fuel pressure to have some idea as to whether or not your pump is bad. The 2.5 pump runs TBI requiring a low pressure pump and will not support the 2.8L let alone something with a greater demand. There's quite a bit you didn't ask that has been answered also.

Have you reprogrammed the computer?
It sounds like the VATS (passkey) shutting the engine off.

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: You're taking this way to seriously and it would go on to the point of pointlessness (I feel we're already there) if we illuminated every little qualifier added, or omitted, to make our points. For example, I specifically stated capacity (what it's capable of) doesn't change with pressure not flow. I also stated, "if you lower pressure within the system limits" in regards to compensation of pressure changes. We do quite a bit here based on "will it work", not "is it the right way" (who ever determines that), otherwise we all would have some things to change about our project approach.

I would say the potential health of someone's engine is pretty serious, wouldn't you?

It is all about pressure AND flow. Both are related. Yes you can drop the pressure to increase the flow out of the fuel pump, but at the same time you do this you will also drop the flow of the injectors you are using. And there's only so much room you have to play with on injector duty cycle. You can't force injectors to open more than what a 100% duty cycle opens them. Sure, you can install bigger injectors to work around this which will allow you to lower the fuel pressure so you can maintain flow, but how far are you going to go before fuel is just dribbling out of those injectors? (Never mind fuel atomization). And what are you going to prove? That you can spend $250+ on a new set of bigger injectors and $??? on a new fuel pressure regulator vs. spending about $120 on the fuel pump you need?

I'm sorry you don't like my approach of "doing it right the first time". Seems to work every time it is tried. But hey, if you like wasting time (and money - since time IS money), you can do it your way using the "will it work" theory. Have fun with that, but it sounds like a gamble to me.

-ryan

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: I would say the potential health of someone's engine is pretty serious, wouldn't you? It is all about pressure AND flow. Both are related. Yes you can drop the pressure to increase the flow out of the fuel pump, but at the same time you do this you will also drop the flow of the injectors you are using. And there's only so much room you have to play with on injector duty cycle. You can't force injectors to open more than what a 100% duty cycle opens them. Sure, you can install bigger injectors to work around this which will allow you to lower the fuel pressure so you can maintain flow, but how far are you going to go before fuel is just dribbling out of those injectors? (Never mind fuel atomization). And what are you going to prove? That you can spend $250+ on a new set of bigger injectors and $??? on a new fuel pressure regulator vs. spending about $120 on the fuel pump you need? I'm sorry you don't like my approach of "doing it right the first time". Seems to work every time it is tried. But hey, if you like wasting time (and money - since time IS money), you can do it your way using the "will it work" theory. Have fun with that, but it sounds like a gamble to me. -ryan

My comment of taking this way to serious is directed to your dissertations addressing recommendations and scenarios I did not make or imply, Dr. Darth. I hoped the statement "within system limits" which inherently means "the right way" would keep you on track but I guess not. I didn't recommend larger injectors or lowering fuel pressure and therefore have no idea why you're addressing it. The guy just wanted to know if the stock pump would start his engine and the answer to that question is yes and by now he knows he needs a new pump regardless since we now know he has an SC engine which was not revealed in the initial post.

Speaking of doing things the right way, you think you can tune my engine by mail? Just thought I'd take a shot at you in good fun.

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: My comment of taking this way to serious is directed to your dissertations addressing recommendations and scenarios I did not make or imply, Dr. Darth. I hoped the statement "within system limits" which inherently means "the right way" would keep you on track but I guess not.

Within system limits of what? The stock Fiero fuel pump? Something else? You didn't specify. Therefore it wasn't the same as saying "the right way...". You can't just make blanket statements on here without being specific, because the casual reader might misunderstand your meaning and get the wrong impression.

quote I didn't recommend larger injectors or lowering fuel pressure and therefore have no idea why you're addressing it.

You made the following statements in this thread:

quote Flow is controlled by the pulse width, so if you lower pressure within the system limits the ECM acts and pulse width will simply increase to compensate resulting in the same fuel quantity through the engine to maintain stoich, etc... The pumps flow capacity does not drop with pressure increase... I guarantee that if you go and crimp your return hose, pressure will peak and flow through the injector will increase all else the same... Hardly anyone changes their fuel pump when boosting a naturally aspirated stock engine to give some idea of what the stock pump is capable of... I specifically stated capacity (what it's capable of) doesn't change with pressure not flow... I also stated, "if you lower pressure within the system limits" in regards to compensation of pressure changes...

Your own statements conflict with themselves and some are PLAIN UNTRUE the way you worded them! I tried to correct you but appearantly you didn't like that.

The whole reason I brought up the bigger injector comment was to counter what you said about lowering the pressure. I wasn't sure where you were going with that statement because you didn't explain yourself. My response to that statement (the way you made it) was to explain that if you lowered the pressure you would need to increase the injector size because you only had so much headroom with injector duty cycle since flow thru an injector goes down as pressure decreases.

quote The guy just wanted to know if the stock pump would start his engine and the answer to that question is yes and by now he knows he needs a new pump regardless since we now know he has an SC engine which was not revealed in the initial post.

They guy said he had a 4 cyl pump and the answer to the question is NO as he posted later.

quote Speaking of doing things the right way, you think you can tune my engine by mail? Just thought I'd take a shot at you in good fun.

Could I? Sure, if you got me the data logs I needed. Will I? That's another question entirely...

I am having success with a Bosch P.N 69225 fuel pump on a somewhat modified 3900SC series III. Holds proper pressure all the way to the redline I believe it's the Bosch equivalent for the Sy/Ty pump and it also lists for the GM 7L 9454ci engine. Anyone else running this pump or am I the only one?

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you, I had to work and take my little brother out.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Within system limits of what?

What's being discussed, what's appropriate or, practical for the subject.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Your own statements conflict with themselves and some are PLAIN UNTRUE the way you worded them! I tried to correct you but appearantly you didn't like that. The whole reason I brought up the bigger injector comment was to counter what you said about lowering the pressure. I wasn't sure where you were going with that statement because you didn't explain yourself. My response to that statement (the way you made it) was to explain that if you lowered the pressure you would need to increase the injector size because you only had so much headroom with injector duty cycle since flow thru an injector goes down as pressure decreases.

A 14.8 gph maximum pump remains such regardless of what you do to the fuel pressure, it may not flow the same amount if you change the pressure, but that doesn't change the fact that it's capacity is 14.8 gph. So therefore it's capacity is constant per it's rating in that you shouldn't expect 15 gph from it, in the same manner that a 2.8L doesn't turn into a 1.4L at half throttle, it's capacity/displacement is still 2.8 litres, it's output can vary.

When I stated within the systems capacity, I hoped that it would be understood that,

"if you lowered the pressure you would need to increase the injector size because you only had so much headroom with injector duty cycle since flow thru an injector goes down as pressure decreases." so you would stop before exceeding the limits and need to do that.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: They guy said he had a 4 cyl pump and the answer to the question is NO as he posted later.

That was not stated in the initial post, and since someone addressed it shortly afterwards, I was under the impression it was a 2.8L pump. Thanks for pointing that out and I agree.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Could I? Sure, if you got me the data logs I needed. Will I? That's another question entirely...

Thanks for the consideration although reluctant and I wouldn't put you through the trouble despite believing you are perfectly capable, though I don't believe it's the right way because,

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero:I would say the potential health of someone's engine is pretty serious, wouldn't you?

I'll have to stop here and apologize to everyone including you Darth, because although I don't mind tactful debate which I believe has occured here with bits and pieces of sarcasm, I believe this has gone way too far. It has turned into two individuals that know a lot about cars and motors, nit picking at eachother to no constructive end, in an effort to be right, or get the last word in, or both.

So I apologize for my contribution and will try to do better. No hard feelings on my end.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 02-19-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: A 14.8 gph maximum pump remains such regardless of what you do to the fuel pressure, it may not flow the same amount if you change the pressure, but that doesn't change the fact that it's capacity is 14.8 gph. So therefore it's capacity is constant per it's rating in that you shouldn't expect 15 gph from it

A pump that has a capacity to flow 14.8 gph @ 50.8 psi will flow LESS volume of fuel at any pressure higher than 50.8 psi and will flow MORE volume of fuel at any pressure less than 50.8psi. If you don't believe me, go test one yourself or call the company who makes the pump. They are going to tell you the same thing I'm telling you.

quote I'll have to stop here and apologize to everyone including you Darth, because although I don't mind tactful debate which I believe has occured here with bits and pieces of sarcasm, I believe this has gone way too far. It has turned into two individuals that know a lot about cars and motors, nit picking at eachother to no constructive end, in an effort to be right, or get the last word in, or both. So I apologize for my contribution and will try to do better. No hard feelings on my end.

I don't understand how you can "nitpick" the FACTS I have posted. I haven't knowingly posted anything that is untrue. I have posted formulas that I have been taught and calculations based on numbers provided by third parties. Could the flow numbers NAPA has on their website be wrong? Sure. Could your engine be more or less efficient than the stated BSFC numbers? Sure. That's why I posted that everyone should do a WOT fuel pressure check to MAKE SURE whatever pump they are using is able to keep up with their engine. This is less critical for N/A applications than it is for boosted applications, but still important nonetheless.

I really hate to keep saying this but you guys need to keep in mind I do have a college degree in this very field so maybe I know what the hell I am talking about here. I'm not posting just to argue with people, I'm trying to help people make informed decisions on what parts they NEED to make their engines run right. I don't get paid by Walbro, Delphi, NAPA, or anyone else to push a particular product over another. I also don't get on here and bash everyone else's products and services just to give myself a “one-up” over someone else. I just want to HELP people by SHARING the knowledge, training, and experience I have so they don't have to make common mistakes or follow someone's bad advice.

So you can take my advice or leave it. Frankly, I'm getting tired of arguing.

-ryan

quote I really hate to keep saying this but you guys need to keep in mind I do have a college degree in this very field so maybe I know what the hell I am talking about here

I have a college degree in software engineering.. But I also know what I do not know in the field of software engineering....

You always come into threads with "I am right, you can never have a point" yet you offer up points of argument by making 2 page long posts. So after a 2 page long post, you expect the thread to die an nobody to offer another view, and when they do its always wrong... you have done this to me MANY times, and every time you get annoyed and just continue on trying to discredit me, not my idea. I imagine this "personal attack" stratify starts with you feeling like you are personally attacked when someone disagrees with your fancy college degree.