I see i could pick up a LY7 for $950 now there VVT can that be locked and do any of you know about the tranny bolt pattern and is the engine a DOHC i see it is 3.6L now the LLT is direct injetion are they talking direct into th combustion chaamber if so then you would need there high pressure fuel pump
The fuel pump is mounted to the engine and should come with whatever engine you can find. There's absolutely no solution for engine management at this time. You can't use the original computer because it has a serial bus that communicated with everything including the radio in the Camaro. There's no way you'll be able to integrate the circuitry and still be able to tell people you drive a Fiero, too many electronics, not enough cabin space.
Someone needs to crack this problem, the LLT would make an excellent selection, given it can make 300bhp on 87 octane.
Anything is possible with a good understanding of the system. There are two pumps from what I recall, the traditional in tank pump is still present to work with the high pressure pump at the engine. As for the computing, yes it involves the same effort as the 5.3L swaps some are doing with integration of the electric accelerator pedal, gauges, radio etc. I'm sure there would be no problem with fixing the camshafts in place once the proper install angles are determined but of course you loose the full range of potential.
It's still a gasoline powered engine, if the DI injectors require the same activation voltage/amperage as non DI injectors I see no reason why you couldn't control them with an earlier ECM, there are sequential and peak hold ECMs available for the job. If the injectors do not require an unusual power supply I see no reason why you couldn't use the tuneable non DI 3.6L ECMs via HPTuner. No matter how sophisticated the motor, it still needs air, fuel and appropriate ignition. If you can put those three together in the correct ratio it will work. The injector power demand would be the deciding factor.
I'd be interested to know if this engine will share the same characteristics as the Northstar with ~100k mile gasket failures and timeserts. It should have the same bellhousing as the SAAB and ECOTEC motors if I'm not mistaken so there is an F40 application through SAAB and a possible manual flywheel fit from the Caddi CTS and Camaro. You could also get the non DI 275 hp engine and up the compression and fuel octane to get the same thing, even have the camshafts reground to get more. There's lots of potential if you think it's worth the effort. I think it's far too much trouble given the 3500 and 3900 engines.
I see the LY7 engine came in 2008 G6 so i would need a tranny for that to right and the LY7 isnt DI but like you said much to much problems to make it worth it i think for DOHC engine the 3.4 DOHC can make just as much power by rasing compression to what they have and tunning the cams and a bit of intake work
Originally posted by engine man: I see the LY7 engine came in 2008 G6 so i would need a tranny for that to right and the LY7 isnt DI but like you said much to much problems to make it worth it i think for DOHC engine the 3.4 DOHC can make just as much power by rasing compression to what they have and tunning the cams and a bit of intake work
The intriguing part about this is the all aluminum engine and high power to displacement ratio. If you take the simplified approach like I did with the 3900 by locking the VVT in place and running it pre VVT style you should be able to make great progress starting with the 3.4 DOHC ECM. Yes you'll have to use the specific tranny for it because of the bellhousing. You will also have to add a 7x crank trigger but that's no problem. If it weren't for the bellhousing this is a swap that I would consider. The Ecotec manual trannies should work to simplify things as the auto trannies are complicated and in my experience too loose and clunky (the 6 spd auto anyway).
I had forgotten one other engine the 3.5 Olds short star that is all aluminum engine and was supposed to be a great engine it is a 90 degree engine but it solves the tranny problem and weight i will do a search on this engine see if any one has put it in the fiero
Originally posted by Joseph Upson: If it weren't for the bellhousing this is a swap that I would consider. The Ecotec manual trannies should work to simplify things as the auto trannies are complicated and in my experience too loose and clunky (the 6 spd auto anyway).
The Ecotec is a different bolt pattern than the High Feature V6. The only FWD manual trans I'm aware of that would be usable, is the F40, using the bell housing half from an F40 in a Saab 2.8T. Or, using an adapater plate and relocating the starter.
Originally posted by L67: The fuel pump is mounted to the engine and should come with whatever engine you can find. There's absolutely no solution for engine management at this time. You can't use the original computer because it has a serial bus that communicated with everything including the radio in the Camaro. There's no way you'll be able to integrate the circuitry and still be able to tell people you drive a Fiero, too many electronics, not enough cabin space.
Someone needs to crack this problem, the LLT would make an excellent selection, given it can make 300bhp on 87 octane.
That's not exactly true. While all the electronics do communicate over the CAN bus in the new models, all of the electronics aren't required to operate any one piece. It is entirely possible to not install the radio, OnStar, etc… The stock ECM is entirely usable, just the same as it is for the LS3, LS7, LS4, etc… swaps.
And I wouldn't run the LLT on 87 octane in stock form. Extended use will damage the engine, and it's not worth the $0.30/gal difference when in the Fiero you'd likely be getting 35MPG+ on the highway anyway.
Originally posted by dobey: The Ecotec is a different bolt pattern than the High Feature V6. The only FWD manual trans I'm aware of that would be usable, is the F40, using the bell housing half from an F40 in a Saab 2.8T. Or, using an adapater plate and relocating the starter.
I mentioned I wasn't sure but knew it was one or both. There's no sense in tearing up a perfectly good transmission for a bellhousing swap from the Saab when they both share the same bolt pattern. The F40 originated in the Saab so there's also a 5 speed option as well. GM used both trannies, one in the G6, the other in the blown Cobalt and Saturn Redline. That's why I suspected the Ecotec might have the same bolt pattern. Both transmissions are from the Saab though. The non boosted Ecotecs gets the Muncie or Isuzu whichever they're still using.
The 3.6L is rated by GM for 87 octane, I doubt there's any danger of engine damage except where 87 is not specified, the ECM should be programmed to detect fuel octane rating in the same manner a sensor is used to detect when E85 is in use in the flex fuel cars. You probably will not get the full power of the engine on 87 according to octane smart PCM testing I watched video on.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 01-30-2011).]
IP: Logged
04:31 PM
PFF
System Bot
wftb Member
Posts: 3692 From: kincardine,ontario,canada Registered: Jun 2005
2.2L ecotecs have the F23 getrag attatched to them .this is a really strong tranny and has the added bonus that fiero manual axles fit right in .proven to stand up to lots of power as well .if this v6 has this bolt pattern that is the tranny i would use .the radio is not a problem with modern BCM's because you do not have to run them through the BCM .you can use a new radio if you want , just make sure you get the one that came in the car that your motor came out of .more work than it is worth .
Originally posted by Joseph Upson: I mentioned I wasn't sure but knew it was one or both. There's no sense in tearing up a perfectly good transmission for a bellhousing swap from the Saab when they both share the same bolt pattern. The F40 originated in the Saab so there's also a 5 speed option as well. GM used both trannies, one in the G6, the other in the blown Cobalt and Saturn Redline. That's why I suspected the Ecotec might have the same bolt pattern. Both transmissions are from the Saab though. The non boosted Ecotecs gets the Muncie or Isuzu whichever they're still using.
The 3.6L is rated by GM for 87 octane, I doubt there's any danger of engine damage except where 87 is not specified, the ECM should be programmed to detect fuel octane rating in the same manner a sensor is used to detect when E85 is in use in the flex fuel cars. You probably will not get the full power of the engine on 87 according to octane smart PCM testing I watched video on.
I think all the Saab 2.8T F40 transmissions are AWD. There's no since sticking an AWD diff in the back of a Fiero, that was designed for a front-engined car. That's the only reason to swap the bell housing from the Saab F40 to the G6 F40. I don't think there are any 2.8T 5 speeds with the High Feature pattern though. AFAIK, the only High Feature transverse manual trans option is the F40 in the Saab 2.8Ts, and I believe they are all AWD. But yes, Getrag made both 5 and 6 speed manual transmissions for Saab/GM. But they don't all have the same bolt patterns.
Yes, the LY7 is rated at 87 octane. The LLT though, is rated for premium, due to the very high compression ratio it has. The coming LFX for 2012 will run on both premium or E85 as I understand it, but is still not designed to run on 87.
Originally posted by wftb: 2.2L ecotecs have the F23 getrag attatched to them .this is a really strong tranny and has the added bonus that fiero manual axles fit right in .proven to stand up to lots of power as well .if this v6 has this bolt pattern that is the tranny i would use .the radio is not a problem with modern BCM's because you do not have to run them through the BCM .you can use a new radio if you want , just make sure you get the one that came in the car that your motor came out of .more work than it is worth .
It doesn't. The Ecotec and High Feature bolt patterns are different. You don't need the stereo head unit to run the engine.
IP: Logged
05:54 PM
L67 Member
Posts: 1792 From: Winston Salem, NC Registered: Jun 2010
Originally posted by dobey: The stock ECM is entirely usable, just the same as it is for the LS3, LS7, LS4, etc… swaps.
And I wouldn't run the LLT on 87 octane in stock form. Extended use will damage the engine, and it's not worth the $0.30/gal difference when in the Fiero you'd likely be getting 35MPG+ on the highway anyway.
Oh it is is it? Last I read, the computer had not been cracked, and could not be tuned by anyone inside the Camaro community. I also read that the PCM would panic without seeing parameters such as the radio. I suppose someone has figured the system out (finally), you have a link right?
Extended use of 87 octane could damage the engine.... uh huh. Source?
IP: Logged
06:01 PM
wftb Member
Posts: 3692 From: kincardine,ontario,canada Registered: Jun 2005
I think all the Saab 2.8T F40 transmissions are AWD. There's no since sticking an AWD diff in the back of a Fiero, that was designed for a front-engined car. That's the only reason to swap the bell housing from the Saab F40 to the G6 F40. I don't think there are any 2.8T 5 speeds with the High Feature pattern though. AFAIK, the only High Feature transverse manual trans option is the F40 in the Saab 2.8Ts, and I believe they are all AWD. But yes, Getrag made both 5 and 6 speed manual transmissions for Saab/GM. But they don't all have the same bolt patterns.
Yes, the LY7 is rated at 87 octane. The LLT though, is rated for premium, due to the very high compression ratio it has. The coming LFX for 2012 will run on both premium or E85 as I understand it, but is still not designed to run on 87.
There's only one AWD Saab F40 that I've read of and it's a new vehicle 2010ish. I've recently driven a Saab 9-3 F40 so no they are not likely to be AWD particularly not the smaller 9-3 models, I don't recall it for the 9-5 either. The Subaru is the dedicated AWD car. It's a hard call for me on the bellhousings though as they looked similar. Despite that, any F40 can be setup for AWD as the gearbox for it bolts to the F40 which comes from the factory with the threaded bosses to accomodate it so it can be removed from an AWD unit. One thing we can agree on, it will be expensive comming directly from a Saab car.
why would a Mega squirt not work if you locked the cams for max HP i mean the engine needs Air fuel and spark like some one said it is just a matter of how much fuel to go with the air and when to fire the spark for best power the DI just ads the fuel further down the line the VVT makes it have a broader power band but doesn't stop it from making peak power if locked for that
Originally posted by Joseph Upson: There's only one AWD Saab F40 that I've read of and it's a new vehicle 2010ish. I've recently driven a Saab 9-3 F40 so no they are not likely to be AWD particularly not the smaller 9-3 models, I don't recall it for the 9-5 either. The Subaru is the dedicated AWD car. It's a hard call for me on the bellhousings though as they looked similar. Despite that, any F40 can be setup for AWD as the gearbox for it bolts to the F40 which comes from the factory with the threaded bosses to accomodate it so it can be removed from an AWD unit. One thing we can agree on, it will be expensive comming directly from a Saab car.
The 9-3 has had the XWD option since MY 2008. I guess if you can find an 06 or 07 9-3 with 2.8t and F40 trans, it won't have the AWD diff. If the AWD diff is a bolt-on and easily removed, then that is even better. It didn't look like it was in the pics of the engine takeout I saw on eBay a while back. The 9-5 only has the 2.8t LP1 engine option in the 2010+ models though, yes. Either way, it is going to be pretty difficult to find a 2.8t/F40 combo in the US, regardless of the pricing. It might be easier/cheaper to just order a new trans, or a new bell housing half and a G6 version of the F40.
Originally posted by L67: Oh it is is it? Last I read, the computer had not been cracked, and could not be tuned by anyone inside the Camaro community. I also read that the PCM would panic without seeing parameters such as the radio. I suppose someone has figured the system out (finally), you have a link right?
Extended use of 87 octane could damage the engine.... uh huh. Source?
Yes it is certainly possible to use the stock E69 ECM. Just because nobody "inside the Camaro community" has done it, doesn't mean it can't be done. And no I don't have an http link to my brain. Do you always have to wait for someone else to do everything else first? If it's not a solved problem when I get around to doing the LY7+F40 swap in my 85 GT, then I will figure it out myself.
Originally posted by engine man: the tranny is not a big issue just make a tranny adapter plate its not the first time one would be made
No it's not, but not having to make one is always better. The starter is in a sort of odd place on the HF V6 engines, and with an adapter plate, you need to relocate the starter somehow, which isn't necessarily so easy.
No, you dont need everything that the computer lines connect to. Just like the 5.3 swaps. I am currently working on a lz8 (started in may) and it is a wirering nightmare. The camaro v6 should use be able to use the same tranny as I am (out of a 07 impalla cop car), or just measure it and ask to measure other trannys. And for the computers (ecm /tcm /bcm/ abs computer/ gauge cluster - you need them all) just use it like the camero would. Its not easy and there is a lot of fabercation needed, I would start looking on how the exhaust exits and if you really want a trunk.
Originally posted by MaddMatt: No, you dont need everything that the computer lines connect to. Just like the 5.3 swaps. I am currently working on a lz8 (started in may) and it is a wirering nightmare. The camaro v6 should use be able to use the same tranny as I am (out of a 07 impalla cop car), or just measure it and ask to measure other trannys. And for the computers (ecm /tcm /bcm/ abs computer/ gauge cluster - you need them all) just use it like the camero would. Its not easy and there is a lot of fabercation needed, I would start looking on how the exhaust exits and if you really want a trunk.
Matt
Stock FWD transmissions with the High Feature pattern are:
F40 6-speed manual - Saab 9-3/9-5 LP1 2.8t only 6T70 6-speed auto 6T75 6-speed auto Asin AF33 5-speed auto 4T65-E in Buick Lacrosse CXS/Rendezvous w/LY7
So unless you build an adapter plate or manage to get a custom bell housing half made for another manual trans, those are your options. The LZ8 is a High Value V6, not a High Feature V6, and uses the same metric pattern as the LS4, 2.8, 2.5, etc… giving more options for transmissions, like bolting it directly to the Getrag or Isuzu 5-speeds, or G6 F40.
Stock FWD transmissions with the High Feature pattern are:
F40 6-speed manual - Saab 9-3/9-5 LP1 2.8t only 6T70 6-speed auto 6T75 6-speed auto Asin AF33 5-speed auto 4T65-E in Buick Lacrosse CXS/Rendezvous w/LY7
So unless you build an adapter plate or manage to get a custom bell housing half made for another manual trans, those are your options. The LZ8 is a High Value V6, not a High Feature V6, and uses the same metric pattern as the LS4, 2.8, 2.5, etc… giving more options for transmissions, like bolting it directly to the Getrag or Isuzu 5-speeds, or G6 F40.
The 4t65e is also in the 70 impalla 9c1. @ engine man: are you looking for auto or man? and how many gears?
standard tranny i think i will just go with the 3.5 Olds engine it has potential to make big power with a turbo or spin the hell out of it N/A if the heads flow like the N" then it is capable of making about 350 HP with stock ports just gotta set it up to turn 8000 + rpm
[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 01-31-2011).]
IP: Logged
05:53 PM
Rick 88 Member
Posts: 3914 From: El Paso, TX. Registered: Aug 2001
I believe it was Rickadee that had a V6 Shortstar in his Fiero. He currently has an Impala SS FWD V8 in the car. He was selling the Shortstar set up. This engine packages very well in the Fiero. Send him a PM for more info.
IP: Logged
06:49 PM
Feb 1st, 2011
iluvsd619 Member
Posts: 1036 From: san diego, ca Registered: May 2005
After looking at the LLT &LY7 i dont think i would want to go that way unless you plan on staying NA the compression is 10.5 to 1 no real room to turbo it the shortstar is only 9 to 1 much better but when i look at the 3.4 TDC it has 9,5 to 1 but the heads out flow the short star heads by 50 CFM but it is an iron block and nit sure what the 2 bolt mains can take bt maybe i can get some one to make some 4 bolt caps for it and build the engine
After looking at the LLT &LY7 i dont think i would want to go that way unless you plan on staying NA the compression is 10.5 to 1 no real room to turbo it the shortstar is only 9 to 1 much better but when i look at the 3.4 TDC it has 9,5 to 1 but the heads out flow the short star heads by 50 CFM but it is an iron block and nit sure what the 2 bolt mains can take bt maybe i can get some one to make some 4 bolt caps for it and build the engine
You may want to check on the LLT and the LY7 one more time. If there anything like the 3.9 they should have oil squirters and other things like that to allow you to have high compresson and boost. Check out some of the stuff Joseph Upson has done with the 3.9.
Like Matt said, the compression isn't going to matter as much with a turbo on a newer engine like the LY7 or LLT. Heck, I don't think any of the modern tech GM engines are built stock with a compression lower than 10:1. The LLT is up around 14:1 for the direct injection.
If you really want something to turbo, that is a V6, and easy to install though, just go with a 3800 series 2 or 3.
No thanks on the 3800 if i wanted a push rod V6 i have a 4.3 with a set of Litlle Brodix heads but i am selling that back to the guy i bought them off what i realy want is a all aluminum engine with DOHC and that is the shortstar or the LY7 but i want the best flowing heads and that is the 3.4 TDC if what I read was right there intakes flow overe 270 CFM and that = power but the engine has to be built to scream to 10,000 rpm to get it it realy wants to be more like a motorcycle engine than a car engine
Originally posted by engine man: No thanks on the 3800 if i wanted a push rod V6 i have a 4.3 with a set of Litlle Brodix heads but i am selling that back to the guy i bought them off what i realy want is a all aluminum engine with DOHC and that is the shortstar or the LY7 but i want the best flowing heads and that is the 3.4 TDC if what I read was right there intakes flow overe 270 CFM and that = power but the engine has to be built to scream to 10,000 rpm to get it it realy wants to be more like a motorcycle engine than a car engine
If you really want to build a GM DOHC that can spin 10K RPM consistently, you really should look at an Ecotec or the High Feature V6s. They are stronger than the 3.4 DOHC, and I doubt a built 3.4 will flow better than a built HFV6. Or look out of the GM engine market. Also, most all the HF V6 engines have dual-mode intakes, that are designed to optimize flow in the low end, as well as the top end, so you're going to get much better low end performance out of them, than a 3.4 DOHC. Not to mention better fuel economy.
I wish i could find some flow # on the LY7 to see what the heads flow but there are many thing that must go with the HF V6 engine every one said you need a new tranny due to a different bolt pattern for the bell housing and something has to be done with the VVT on the engine and all that has been talked about in this thread
Originally posted by engine man: I wish i could find some flow # on the LY7 to see what the heads flow but there are many thing that must go with the HF V6 engine every one said you need a new tranny due to a different bolt pattern for the bell housing and something has to be done with the VVT on the engine and all that has been talked about in this thread
There is a lot of talk about what you have to do, but nobody has actually done any of it yet. You don't have to use a different trans, if you make an adapter plate. But you do have to do one of those two things. Both have pros and cons. I don't know why you think VVT needs to be disabled. Oh and I said up near 14:1 for CR on the LLT earlier, but it's actually 11.4:1.
I don't know where you got the 270 CFM number for the 3.4 DOHC, but I'm pretty sure the high feature heads are going to be able to flow better.
i got the 270 cfm from a thread on this forum where the guy was using a 3.5 forged crank and aluminum rods dont know if he ever finished the engine i would love the VVT but you need to run it some how and they are saying the ECU wont work unless you use every thing from the donor car but you might not i dont know but i do know what it takes for a 3.4 DOHC I realy want the 3.6 but I would realy need to lean on some one who has the knowledg to figure out the wiring and ECU problems https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/104652.html
[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 02-03-2011).]
you know i got thinking to really com pair the 2 engines you would need to up the compression of the 3.4 DOHC to that of the HF 3.6 but when you up the compression you can go with a bit bigger cam to and a bit better intake so when all that is done i would think you power would be Simula to the LY7 if you could make a dual runner intake for the 3.4 DOHC i know of one guy who shows how to get 240 HP at the wheels with the 3.4 and he is stock compression so if he had a dual runner intake and 11.5 to 1 then his engine would make about the same torque but i am sure the VVT helps the low end power out so the only thing that really can be said in my opinion is that the 3.6 has a stronger bottom end rods crank and block http://fiero.cc/fiero-tdc/m...ws/intake/index.html
[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 02-03-2011).]
