I sprayed a decklid with red paint mixed at Napa and put into spray cans. The store said it is “single stage paint”. I am told you don’t clear coat over it. It is now 2 months later and the paint is not “hard”. It can be scratched off with a fingernail and scuffed with a dry cloth. Does this paint need something else done to it? Is it faulty?
Also they tried to match the red that is on this car with their picture taking machine and failed twice, it still doesn’t match.

Ever hear that painting is 90% prep and 10% spraying?

What was your prep procedure?

I sanded with 400 grit, then wiped down with rubbing alcohol, then wiped down with a dry lint free cloth. Its not so much that the paint is "flaking off" as one might think. Its like the paint is still "soft".

?

Did you wipe the car down before sanding?

quote Originally posted by DLCLK87GT: Did you wipe the car down before sanding?

I wiped the dust off with a dry lint free rag before sanding. (The sanding I did was before painting.)

quote Originally posted by 2.5: I sprayed a decklid with red paint mixed at Napa and put into spray cans. The store said it is “single stage paint”. I am told you don’t clear coat over it. It is now 2 months later and the paint is not “hard”. It can be scratched off with a fingernail and scuffed with a dry cloth. Does this paint need something else done to it? Is it faulty? Also they tried to match the red that is on this car with their picture taking machine and failed twice, it still doesn’t match.

Set it in your dry warm house for about a week. It probably never got a chance to cure properly.

Did you call them and talk to them about it? I purchased the Finish 1 two part primer from them recently but haven't used it yet. I also had them look at an old paint system I purchased but never got around to using. I recall there being 3 different grades of hardner for it that depended on the temperature you were going to be painting in, slow, med, fast. Maybe they mixed if for a slow cure rate.

Im guessing by where you are, its too cold. It needs 65-70 degrees to dry properly. Single stage does not need clear. Did you shake the can up enough to mix it before spraying ?. Napa is Sherwin-Williams paint, just repackaged for Napa. The 'reader' all the paint stores use does not give them a magical formula to match contrary to what many think. It only suggests the closest possible matches from its own internal data base. If its the original color, just go by the code on the vehicle. If its faded from age, your not likely to ever match it completely. Its also impossible to tweek it in a spray can. If I got a car that wont match, I can mix other colors into the mix to tint it (ie/ like add some silver or white to lighten the shade, or black or blue to darken it. Doing that takes some skill that a backyard painter is not going to have.

If it is still gummy, I suggest using a scraper with a single edge razor blade and 'shaving' off as much as you can, then try using some lacquer thinner on a rag to soften and wipe off whats left. Then resand with your 320/400 paper. Its also possible they mixed a single stage can for you with a paint that requires a hardener by mistake. Acrylic enamel is a single stage and will air dry in a day or so if its kept over 60 degrees at least overnite.

------------------

Owner / Operator Custom Paint and Body...
specializing in Corvette & Higher End Autos for 45 years
Ferrari, Mercedes and Porsche Body Repair Approved
____________________________________________

toys: '66 custom Dodge 'Super Bee'
power by 413 SuperStock V8
2008 Mustang Bullet Edition
1977 Cessna 172XP Hawk HiPerf

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Im guessing by where you are, its too cold. It needs 65-70 degrees to dry properly. Single stage does not need clear. Did you shake the can up enough to mix it before spraying ?. Napa is Sherwin-Williams paint, just repackaged for Napa. The 'reader' all the paint stores use does not give them a magical formula to match contrary to what many think. It only suggests the closest possible matches from its own internal data base. If its the original color, just go by the code on the vehicle. If its faded from age, your not likely to ever match it completely. Its also impossible to tweek it in a spray can. If I got a car that wont match, I can mix other colors into the mix to tint it (ie/ like add some silver or white to lighten the shade, or black or blue to darken it. Doing that takes some skill that a backyard painter is not going to have. If it is still gummy, I suggest using a scraper with a single edge razor blade and 'shaving' off as much as you can, then try using some lacquer thinner on a rag to soften and wipe off whats left. Then resand with your 320/400 paper. Its also possible they mixed a single stage can for you with a paint that requires a hardener by mistake. Acrylic enamel is a single stage and will air dry in a day or so if its kept over 60 degrees at least overnite.

This was in a can stuff, but they mixed it on site. Says "Martin Senour". I did shake teh cans like crazy for a few minutes, and during. I painted it in a heated garage that was 65 degrees, and kept it 65 degrees for 24 hours after, then it stayed at at least 40 degrees. maybe that wasn't long enough.

So you don't think it will cure if brought in the house?

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 12-20-2010).]

Base clear is getting so affordable, I don't know why anyone uses single stage any more. sounds like they mixed it,(either with No "DRIER") or it needed the "hardener" added to it to dry (which they couldn't do in a "spray bomb". I've seen a "SHOP " mix the paint & shoot a car , a month later , the paint was still soft. they had to strip the whole car ! They mixed it with only "mixing colors" & forgot to add the "drier".

Where can I go to get a visible color match red (not factory red) base/clear in a can? I don't have any paint gun equipment and only need to do the decklid...

Both the Base And the Clear MUST be mixed with activator, so, you Cannot do it with a spray bomb.

Sounds like you used a lacquer aerosol.. This is basically the result of lacquer based paints in the hands of a novice.

Get the $10 harbor freight paint gun or just let it look crummy IMO... painting cars poorly (but at least permanently) is not even the easiest or cheapest thing to do, so the chances of a magic bullet fixing everything is low.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Sounds like you used a lacquer aerosol.. This is basically the result of lacquer based paints in the hands of a novice. Get the $10 harbor freight paint gun or just let it look crummy IMO... painting cars poorly (but at least permanently) is not even the easiest or cheapest thing to do, so the chances of a magic bullet fixing everything is low.

It layed on nice, it looks nice, if you can see in my post that I did something wrong maybe mention it.
The problem is it did not dry.
I used black acrylic laquer in a spray can for my grills and they turned out great. The reason probably was that the black was canned by "rustoleum" and not the employees at Napa.

So I guess at this point my question is, would it have cured by now even at 45 degrees for 2 months and will never cure because Napa screwed up....or does it need more heat?

Thanks to those who replied.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 12-21-2010).]

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Sounds like you used a lacquer aerosol.. This is basically the result of lacquer based paints in the hands of a novice.

Lacquer based paints are recommended for the novice. This is not a prep issue. When a can is mixed at a store like that it should be ready to go. Lacquer should dry quickly and with no issues at 65 degrees. I expect that this can was a single stage enamel mix and not lacquer. Enamel takes longer to cure and that may be the issue.....not long enough in the warm environment for complete cure. At this point you may have to scrape it off and repaint. You may want to consider finding another decklid to save all the labor on this one. But, bring it inside and let it sit in a warm spot for a few days and see what happens.

From what I can tell you didn't do anything wrong. I would suggest, however, to get your next spray paint from a regular automotive paint supplier....not NAPA. I really do not like Sherwin-Williams / Martin-Seynour / NAPA paint.

Mark

quote Originally posted by Firefox: You may want to consider finding another decklid to save all the labor on this one. But, bring it inside and let it sit in a warm spot for a few days and see what happens. From what I can tell you didn't do anything wrong. I would suggest, however, to get your next spray paint from a regular automotive paint supplier....not NAPA. I really do not like Sherwin-Williams / Martin-Seynour / NAPA paint. Mark

Thanks.
What actually is an automotive paint supplier, a body shop? I don't recall ever seeing one... or is it all mail order?

quote Originally posted by 2.5: It is now 2 months later and the paint is not “hard”.

quote I painted it in a heated garage that was 65 degrees, and kept it 65 degrees for 24 hours after, then it stayed at at least 40 degrees.

Depending on the paint type (i.e. chemistry), it sounds possible that the mix didn't include enough hardener.

That said, temperature is far more likely the problem. 65 degrees would be a bare minimum for most paint systems. How long had the shop been at 65 degrees before you applied the paint? The usual requirement is to bring the shop up to temperature at least 24 hours before you apply the paint, otherwise the air will be at 65 but the surfaces you are painting will still be considerably colder. Allowing the temperature to drop after 24 hours probably interrupted the curing process forever.

Most polymer systems, including many paints, cure in at least two stages, and the cure rate is strongly dependent upon temperature. In the first stage, the polymers in the paint cure to a soft condition that's often called the "green" or "glassy" state (usually in less than an hour at normal temperatures), and then progress to the final, hard cure state over a period of several hours to several days. If the temperature is too low, the paint will slowly cure to the glassy state over many, many hours but never cure beyond that. You may be able to rescue paint stuck (pun not intended) in the glassy state by subsequently oven curing it, but usually even this will not work.

At this point you have nothing to lose, though. Bring it inside for a few days. Use a hair dryer, a heat gun (carefully!), heat lamps, and/or an infrared heater to heat the surface and try to force the paint to resume curing. Even if it doesn't work, if you are careful not to overheat the plastic substrate in the process you won't be any worse off than you are now.

quote What actually is an automotive paint supplier ... ?

It is a wholesale paint and materials supplier that specializes exclusively in automotive, truck and trailer, and (usually) aircraft paints. Most medium to large cities have at least one. Most of their customers are automotive, truck, and aircraft paint shops, but they will usually sell to auto and aircraft hobbyists too. Auto paint suppliers are an excellent resource for knowledge as well as paint and materials. They can usually recommend a good paint system for your project, your budget, and your shop capabilities. Just don't expect a lot of hand holding; their primary business is working with paint professionals. Look in the Yellow Pages under "Paint, Wholesale" or ask a couple of local body shops for a referral.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 12-21-2010).]

quote Originally posted by 2.5: It layed on nice, it looks nice, if you can see in my post that I did something wrong maybe mention it. The problem is it did not dry. I used black acrylic laquer in a spray can for my grills and they turned out great. The reason probably was that the black was canned by "rustoleum" and not the employees at Napa. So I guess at this point my question is, would it have cured by now even at 45 degrees for 2 months and will never cure because Napa screwed up....or does it need more heat? Thanks to those who replied.

Don't mind Darkhorizon, he's an "expert" at everything anyway good luck!

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Alan Frazier

'84 2m4 Northstar 5 speed
'84 3800SCII sold
'86 GT-'92 3.4 TDC 5 speed(sold)

quote Originally posted by 2.5: It can be scratched off with a fingernail and scuffed with a dry cloth.

Then don't touch it with a cloth or fingernail. Problem solved! Just kidding. Reminds me of that old joke where the patient says "It only hurts when I go like this doc..." and the doctor says "Then don't do that." Good luck to you.

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-Brian

My 87 GT Poly Suspension Upgrade (all pics) thread
Removing the roof panel

Normal auto paint is very touchy...if you're looking for either a quick fix of a long fix ( the latter matters on if the colour matches ) Rustoleum red would work for awhile, temperature doesn't really effect it that much. Guy I got the technique from painted his...sorry forgot the muscle car he painted...anyway, painted it in the winter in canada...so you know it was cold.

quote Originally posted by neverendingproject: Don't mind Darkhorizon, he's an "expert" at everything anyway good luck!

Uhh, on paper I am most proficiently trained in auto body than any other automotive area...

I dont know what chemistry an autobody store would use in a areosol form, other than lacquer. It would be pretty strange to do a 1stage enamel in a spray can.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Uhh, on paper I am most proficiently trained in auto body than any other automotive area...

then.......

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: It would be pretty strange to do a 1stage enamel in a spray can.

That's scary.

http://www.ehow.com/how_596...gle_stage-paint.html

Kevin

[This message has been edited by Lambo nut (edited 12-21-2010).]

Martin-Senor paint is just repackaged Sherwin-Williams like I said.

Look in your Yellow Pages for a supplier under Body Shop Supplies/ Equipment for a paint store.

If you want it in a spray can, specify you want Acrylic Enamel (as opposed to regular or synthetic enamel).....it dont require any hardener....but it does need 65+ degrees to dry. Its very hard to find lacquer any more at all.

Not all brands use hardener in their basecoats. I use Sherwin-Williams, and BASF/RM, Diamont, and ICI Autocolor (Mercedes), all of which none use hardener in the basecoat color....only the clear topcoat.

------------------

Owner / Operator Custom Paint and Body...
specializing in Corvette & Higher End Autos for 45 years
Ferrari, Mercedes and Porsche Body Repair Approved
____________________________________________

toys: 2001 Cadillac 74" stretch DaBryan Limousine
'66 custom Dodge 'Super Bee'
power by 413 SuperStock V8
2008 Mustang Bullet Edition
1977 Cessna 172XP Hawk HiPerf

I was looking for a supplier near me and there's nothing listed in the yellow pages or on line. I stopped by a local Collision Max and asked them where they got their supplies and they were more than happy to tell me...even drew me a map. They only do accident repair and not total paint jobs so they had nothing to loose by telling me where to get my own stuff.

There ya go.....

How was your garage heated? Sounds like HUMIDITY may have been an issue,

or you sprayed it to heavy. Some propane "space heaters" throw off a tremendous amount of humidity in the air.

Either way you should wet sand it with 1000 grit after turning a hair dryer on it. It may gum up the paper a bit at first

but eventually I think you will take it down to a level of cure. You may have to put another coat on in the end but

I bet this would say you from having to scrape the whole thing. g/l Ray

quote Originally posted by Lambo nut: That's scary. http://www.ehow.com/how_596...gle_stage-paint.html Kevin

I am sorry I have an opinion? Having sprayed alot of single stage paint, I was just adding that without the proper catalyze agents, I would find it hard to do a good job with a paint like that. Getting it layed down with my SATA gun is hard enough... I could only imagine how it would be with a .005 paint sprayer tip on a can.

strange =/ not possible. I cant help the fact that you read what you want to see.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Ever hear that painting is 90% prep and 10% spraying? What was your prep procedure?

When you come off with this kind of attitude you come off as a know-it-all. Most of our friends on here don't know much about painting and if you are going to offer help then you offer help......not a smart-ass attitude. This does seem to be your normal type of response to most of the questions that arise....that i have noticed.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Uhh, on paper I am most proficiently trained in auto body than any other automotive area... I dont know what chemistry an autobody store would use in a areosol form, other than lacquer. It would be pretty strange to do a 1stage enamel in a spray can.

On paper.....yeah.....that tells us everything. You know it all and will tell us all what we are doing wrong. Maybe you should get a little more experience with some autobody work than you have now before you consider yourself an expert. I've read a lot of your posts on here regarding bodywork and painting and you still have a little bit more to learn before you become proficient. If you want to offer help, then offer your help with your personal experiences and facts....such as "this is what I did and it worked out" or " I had good success doing it this way " ...not the " Do this because I read about it once " or " I'm not a painter myself but this is what I read " type stuff. Yeah, you've painted before.....we know. The problem you have is just because you've done it a couple of times you are now the leading expert on painting. When I offer advice I explain that I do things a certain way.....but my way isn't the only way and other professional painters have their own methods to the same end result. Roger does things one way....Paul does things a different way....I do things that encompass both ways....it doesn't matter. ( We also have other painters on here...no offense to anyone for not mentioning ) We are professionals and know what needs to be done to get the results we need for the customer.....not just roll the dice and guess what way something needs to be done. We have experience in failures and what it takes to correct them and that's some of the best learning experiences you can have. Something goes wrong and you make sure you don't have that issue happen again because stripping and repainting a customer car is very expensive and time consuming. Plus your profit goes out the window. So, because of these little things we have learned over the years we have knowledge that novices like yourself don't have a clue about. Again, share your experiences but don't dictate.....or cop an attitude...

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Ever hear that painting is 90% prep and 10% spraying?

That's just inappropriate for someone asking for help.

Mark
One of the professional painters on the forum

[This message has been edited by Firefox (edited 12-23-2010).]

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I am sorry I have an opinion? Having sprayed alot of single stage paint, I was just adding that without the proper catalyze agents, I would find it hard to do a good job with a paint like that. Getting it layed down with my SATA gun is hard enough... I could only imagine how it would be with a .005 paint sprayer tip on a can. strange =/ not possible. I cant help the fact that you read what you want to see.

I only read exactly what you typed.....

You do realize that most Krylon and Rustoleum spray paints are single stage enamel? When they mix the paint for spray can use at the auto store they mix it so it sprays properly from a can, but you knew that already on paper right?

Instead of me copying Firefox's post, just reread it and pretend it was from me too. I'm not a "professional" painter but have been painting for about 30 years, probably longer then you've been around.....

Kevin

Mark and myself are in 100% agreement.

The paint stores will mix anything you want in spray cans except those that require catalyst. I can get laquer (if its available to them), enamel, synthetic or acrylic enamel, primer, stripper, clears, sealers, etc. Most that are mixed in spray cans at stores I deal with are enamels. They tend to be the best for amature results from a spray can. The reason is they take a lot longer to dry so you can get a more even gloss. Some people cannot get an even gloss with even a professional paint gun.

Ive learned more in 50 years of auto body and paint by making mistakes and fixing them than you could ever learn from a book, website or even vocational school. The best way to identify a professional is finding one that knows how to fix problems when they arise.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: The paint stores will mix anything you want in spray cans except those that require catalyst.

Probably just a matter of time though. Eastwood has a few items with two part mix already available.

http://www.eastwood.com/spr...-primer-aerosol.html

They have a button on the bottom you push to release the catalyst into the product.

Kevin

quote Originally posted by rcp builders: How was your garage heated? Sounds like HUMIDITY may have been an issue, or you sprayed it to heavy. Some propane "space heaters" throw off a tremendous amount of humidity in the air. Either way you should wet sand it with 1000 grit after turning a hair dryer on it. It may gum up the paper a bit at first but eventually I think you will take it down to a level of cure. You may have to put another coat on in the end but I bet this would say you from having to scrape the whole thing. g/l Ray

To answer a few questions,

The garage is heated with a mounted on ceiling natural gas garage heater. The garage is insulated too. I should have left it warm in the garage longer than I did probably. I did heat it up in there probably 12 hours before painting. It is curious that I had contacted another NAPA store about the color match (because it was after hours for the one I bought the paint from) and they said they didn't think it was possible to get hardener into a spray can at a store. So who knows, I will have to talk to the napa "expert" that sold it to me and see what he thinks. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy that could be convinced "the customer is right", or even has a point of view.

I will take it in the house and let it warm up for a few days then hit it with a hair dryer, maybe more than once, then let it sit at lease another week and see if anything changed.

Anyway I have spray canned many things before and they usually turn out real nice, and last. That was almost always with ready to use enamel cans already a color. But this is the 1st time I ever had some color mixed in a can anywhere. Thanks for all your tips and I do plan in the future to ask some body shops where the best place to get paint is and go from there. This really was a sort of temporary fix, this Fiero has chips and flaws in places, and faded bumpers that look like separating clearcoat. It really needs a whole paintjob someday. The decklid looked horrid and I was just hopiong to make it better in the meantime of saving up to paint the whole car.

As for member Darkhorizon, I think he means well, just is short and doesn't get his point across well. Probably better in person than text form .