I'm trying to figure out some plans for my car and need to know if the 2.0 Supercharged Ecotec (LSJ) can fit without major modification to the 1988 rear cross members? What I mean is I know Roger Thelin sells an 2.2 Ecotec swap kit, but he replaces the front cross member with one of his design. I don't think this is legal for the class of autocross I want to run (but I am not really sure). So does anyone know?

Thanks.

The LSJ fits great in the engine bay, but you will have to fab some parts. If your concerned about staying in a particular class, get the rule book out and study it before you start, it's way quicker and cheaper that way .

Are you planning on using the fiero tranny or the one the comes with the ecotec?

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yellow 88 GT, not stock
white 88 notchie, 4 banger

This is the exact verbiage I am worried about.
"These allowances do not permit extensive modifications to a sub-frame or cross-member to lower an engine which would otherwise
not fit in the engine compartment." I'm not worried about the height because I can hack up the rear deck lid as needed. I'm more worried about "extensive modifications."

I haven't decided on what transmission. In fact I lost the link to the thread here that listed all of the different transmissions and the ratios. Ideally the trans would allow for ~75mph in second with 25.6" tall tires.

What class?

I dont think you would have many issues when you swap a smaller than stock motor into the fiero... If they say you may not "extensively" mod something, then it would be up for debate in theory.

quote Originally posted by Will: What class?

The goal is SSM (formerly known as SM2). This class is dominated by 3 generation RX7's. On paper the Fiero has a chance. It can the run the same width tires, has a good suspension, HP according to budget, and the weight can be close to the 7 @ about 2600lbs. Down side is when running the same width tires the Fiero is wider by about 8 inches and has no power steering. With 275's I have tested it is a bit of an arm work out.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I dont think you would have many issues when you swap a smaller than stock motor into the fiero... If they say you may not "extensively" mod something, then it would be up for debate in theory.

Well people get protested for all sorts of stupid crap. So I am just trying to do my homework before tearing the car apart on a major scale. I had a friend get protested for not having a radio. It was legal for him to remove the radio, but he didn't install a blanking plate so was disqualified. I just posted the part of the rules I am concerned with, because I don't want to boor everyone with the details.

As far as going with a smaller motor it is again due to the rules. The smaller the motor the lighter the car can be. As an example the 3.8 supercharged will give you a minimum weight of 2797 lbs. where a 2.4 turbo/sc gives you 2356 lbs.

[This message has been edited by Primaris (edited 08-31-2010).]

Generally speaking, if they allow you to transplant a motor that was never offered in the years the car was manufactured, they will not give a hoot were it is in the chassis. You are not in that sort of class IMHO.

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yellow 88 GT, not stock
white 88 notchie, 4 banger

i agree with cc .and if you mount it the way i did by welding steel mounts on the cradle to bolt up to the cobalt OE rubber mounts and leaning the motor backwards like it is in the cobalt , you wont have to change any crossmembers on the cradle .i also use a lower dog bone mount instead of an upper .the stock cobalt/cavalier engine mount is an upper and the dog bone is on the bottom.as far as 275's on the front ,you dont need tires that wide .there isnt enough weight on the front of a fiero to warm up a tire that wide .look at the tire specs for a lotus elise .lighter car , yes , but it runs 185's on the front .makes the car more nimble .

quote Originally posted by Primaris: The goal is SSM (formerly known as SM2). This class is dominated by 3 generation RX7's. On paper the Fiero has a chance. It can the run the same width tires, has a good suspension,

Have you driven an FD3S? That chassis is absolutely world class and has huge support. The Fiero... isn't and doesn't.
Good luck.

If you have 275's on the front, you should have 335's on the back.

I double checked the rule book for SSM and you are stuck with 2.5 or 2.8 OE blocks.

"Engine block must be a production unit manufactured and badged
the same as the original standard or optional engine for that model.
Badges that exist as marketing aliases for the manufacturer
will be recognized as equivalents. Swaps involving makes related
only at a corporate level are not recognized as equivalents."

It also means you would not be able to use a SD block if had one.

Once you start swapping in engines outside the model's OE that puts you into the Modified category which as you probably know, just about anything goes.

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yellow 88 GT, not stock
white 88 notchie, 4 banger

Pontiac is considered a GM vehicle so any GM non-racing block would be legal. The superduty block would not be legal. If a Porsche engine was a factory option for any Fiero then you would be able to use any Porsche engine.

quote Originally posted by ccfiero350: I double checked the rule book for SSM and you are stuck with 2.5 or 2.8 OE blocks. "Engine block must be a production unit manufactured and badged the same as the original standard or optional engine for that model. Badges that exist as marketing aliases for the manufacturer will be recognized as equivalents. Swaps involving makes related only at a corporate level are not recognized as equivalents." It also means you would not be able to use a SD block if had one. Once you start swapping in engines outside the model's OE that puts you into the Modified category which as you probably know, just about anything goes.

GM is the manufacturer. Any production GM block should fly. Cadillac powered Fieros have run in SM2 years ago.
The whole purpose for writing that rule that way was to allow use of an Acura engine in a Honda body.

Edit: Now that I dig a little further back in my memory, it might be that we were having problems getting Cadillac Fieros into SM2 at regional level, despite the wording of the rule and the fact that Acura powered Hondas were allowed to compete. I'm not sure if the Cadillac Fiero was recognized at the national level as SM2 viable or not.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-03-2010).]

I could see bending the rules a bit if you kept the same number of cylinders, and it was of the same model year. I bet nobody would say anything until the car and driver started getting competitive times.


But I'm still thinking if you drop a '06 supercharged motor in an 22 year old car, they will politely put you in a modified class.

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yellow 88 GT, not stock
white 88 notchie, 4 banger

quote Originally posted by ccfiero350: I could see bending the rules a bit if you kept the same number of cylinders, and it was of the same model year. I bet nobody would say anything until the car and driver started getting competitive times. But I'm still thinking if you drop a '06 supercharged motor in an 22 year old car, they will politely put you in a modified class.

It isn't bending the rules at all, you just don't understand them. SCCA SM and SM2/SSM Solo classes were created specifically for cars that have engine swaps (within manufacturer) or forced induction added when it didn't come from the factory. You can put any production GM engine ever made into a Fiero and be legal, as long as you abide by the other rules regarding chassis/suspension modification.

The confusing wording about corporate swaps is to prevent someone from putting a Ford V8 into a Mazda Miata or Mazda RX7, or a Mazda rotary in a Ford Mustang, simply because Ford and Mazda had a corporate joint venture. However, you can legally swap any Ford or Mazda engine into some older Mazda 626 cars that came from the factory with a Ford V6 engine.

quote Originally posted by ccfiero350: I could see bending the rules a bit if you kept the same number of cylinders, and it was of the same model year. I bet nobody would say anything until the car and driver started getting competitive times. But I'm still thinking if you drop a '06 supercharged motor in an 22 year old car, they will politely put you in a modified class.

Please go back and read the rule you quoted. The only issues at hand are manufacturer and badging. Age and number of cylinders are irrelevant.

Okay, I'll assume the LSJ & F35 combo is a go in SSM, the original question is about the modifications to the sub-frame to mount this combo. I mounted mine by replacing the two cross members with rectangular tube and kept the factory side rails and their suspension pickup points. Although I put the engine as low as possible to have the axles horizontal at ride height, the engine fit was never an issue. The firewall has not been touched. I'm not sure if the crank center line to the top of the sub-frame is any shorter then a stock duke. So I would believe the way I did it would be kosher at tech for SSM. The definitive way is ask a SCCA tech person to sign off on it.

It would be possible to mount this combo keeping the stock cross members but my thoughts at the time was it was so much easier to work with the tube and make simple flat mount brackets. It's also a lot stronger with out weighing much more.

- - -


P. Any minor modifi cation, intended to allow or facilitate any allowed
modifi cation, is permitted as long as it does not provide any intrinsic
performance benefi t in and of itself, does not provide a weight reduction
of more than 1 lb, and is not explicitly prohibited elsewhere
within these rules.

This rule is intended to allow minor notching, bending, clearancing,
grinding; the drilling of holes; affi xing, relocating, or strengthening of
brackets; removal of small parts, and similar operations performed
in order to facilitate the installation of allowed parts or modifi cations.
Minor strengthening, without relocation, of original chassis/suspension
pickup points is allowed. Examples include welding washers
restricting control arm mounting bolt movement, local reinforcement
of control arm chassis mounts, etc.

These allowances do not permit extensive modifi cations to a subframe
or cross-member to lower an engine which would otherwise
not fi t in the engine compartment.

Competitors are strongly cautioned to make the minimum amount of
modifi cation required to affi x a given part, and to not make unduly
tortured interpretations of this rule. Modifi cations to the fi rewall in
order to allow for increased engine setback, and any modifi cation
that changes the location of a suspension pickup point, are explicitly
forbidden. Plastic under-trays and covers below the engine compartment
may be removed or modifi ed as necessary to facilitate other
legal modifi cations, but not added or enlarged.

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yellow 88 GT, not stock
white 88 notchie, 4 banger

[This message has been edited by ccfiero350 (edited 09-05-2010).]

My understanding of the engine swap rules is the same as RacerX11's. So I am 99% sure putting a 2.0 ecotec into the Fiero is legal.

Now can it be installed within the letter of the rules?

I was concerned about the amount of modification required to the sub-frame, because of the rules ccfiero350 posted. As the rules state I cannot make extensive modifications. I think Will's install meets this requirement. However, can his engine mounts be considered excessive?

The one thing that is being overlooked is the main rule regarding SCCA autocross. And, that is unless the rule book says you can then you CANNOT.

So since the rule book does not say you can replace a part of the sub-frame, then the modification is not allowed. This is the reason I am not able to use Roger Thelin excellent kit.

ccfiero350,

If you want your particular situation to be ruled upon then you need to write the National Office. You can get an unofficial opinion over at sccaforums.com and by posting your question in the SM group I'm sure Doug Gill will reply. He is on the ruling body for SM.

The reason I am taking the time to explain this is because I am getting the impression that you feel the "Tech" inspection at a local autocross is for classing purposes. It is not. Classing and being legal in the class you choose is entirely up to the competitor. Now at a lot of local autocrosses the tech guy will help you class your car. But, that is not their job. Their job is to make some basic safety inspections, battery tie down, tires, wheel bearings, lug nuts, brakes, throttle spring, etc. Beyond regional competition at the serious level, divisional & nationals, you are expected to have your car classed correctly and meet the rule books requirements. If you are not meeting the class requirements you can be protested if your competitors choose to do so. (this can cost you money)

Now one other note about the rules; at the regional level a SCCA club is allowed to do pretty much what they want, except for the mandatory sections of the rule book. Perhaps this allowance is adding to the confusion, if the clubs you run with "do their own thing?"

With trimming the decklid hinge box, removing the hinge springs and trimming the dogbone bracket, the Northstar "fits" with the crankshaft centerline and bellhousing interface in the same locations as the 2.8. I read the rule as whatever reasonable level of modification--within the stated weight reduction limits--is necessary to install the SSM-legal engine of your choice is legal.

IE, relocating the forward cradle crossmember is legal, because the Northstar just won't fit without doing so.

However, my replacement crossmember is likely more than 1 lb heavier than the stocker. Also, my simple removal of the decklid torsion springs is more than 1 lb of weight difference. Also sommore, I have installed dual decklid struts, which might not weigh withing 1 lb of what the torsion springs weigh.

Basically, install the dam engine and run it. If you're not planning to take this car to Nationals, don't give it a second thought.

I agree, keep it simple, keep it safe, and get it done and on the road.

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yellow 88 GT, not stock
white 88 notchie, 4 banger

If my plans were just for local competition, I agree completely. I would, over time, like to take this car to the full extent of SSM rules and compete at the national level. So this is why I am trying to learn how much the rear sub-frame needs to be hacked up.

Hell if I thought it was legal to replace those cross members I would offer to have a LSJ sent to Roger Thelin so he could modify his kit for the LSJ. (I like his kit a lot)

Thanks for all the input so far.

Are you planning on a full cage?

Since the lsj+F35 are mounted by 4 points, 2 up high along the centerline and 2 down low at the bell housing, you might be able to use those two high ones and make some structure to connect to the down tubes or mount pads near the strut towers.

There are a lot more options on how to mount the motor if you delete the air conditioner compressor. It's the largest obstacle that has to be worked around.

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yellow 88 GT, not stock
white 88 notchie, 4 banger