Clutch won't disengage:

-1" slave pushrod travel. New Ram Clutch setup in Getrag mated to Duke. (swap forseen... reason for Ram).
-Steel clutch pedal
-Rebuilt MS & Slave from Rockauto.
-Shifts when not running, won't shift when running.
-No obvious fluid leaking
-dry under slave boot
-While vacuum bleeding, air bubbles were pulled in around bleeder screw threads,
-Non-stock slave push-rod installed because stock seemed to be too short, barely any stroke left when installed. I instead cut 4 speed slave push-rod to just short of getrag slaves full stroke.
-Shifter cables not yet adjusted per manual instructions
-Entire car rebuilt and not yet driven, so everything has been adjusted.
Transmission has not been tested, however, engine bogs whenever I try to go into gear while engine is running, Reverse grinds (clutch depressed).


Tried pedal bleeding and mity-vac bleeding; seems little to no air in system. Bled slave independently (unbolted, opened bleeder valve while depressing push-rod against tranny. I haven't adjusted the clutch arm. Perhaps it is misaligned.

Any ideas? I've been at this for weeks and I need help.

-Michael

------------------
"A guy know's he's in love when he loses interest in his car for a few days." -Tim Allen

He who dies with the most toys... still dies.


Check out my restoration!

some slaves have differant size rods for pre load.

I was wondering about preload. I'm reading through the online '86 manual right now for info. Hopefully it will help me out, and I'll post any further developments.

Also, the shift lever is the more rugged cast variety.'

Thanks,
-Michael

Push the clutch arm manually and see if you can get it to work good then, If not I'd suspect clutch problems, maybe the disk is on backwards?

quote Originally posted by Freshj: Push the clutch arm manually and see if you can get it to work good then, If not I'd suspect clutch problems, maybe the disk is on backwards?

I doubt that you can get the clutch arm to move manually. Maybe with a big wrench.

I'd say lets see what happens if you get 1/16 to 1/8 more travel. Maybe cut a bolt to stick in there and see if you get release then. I have seen many guys say you need more than 1" to get it proper. I get just less than 1" and I have good pedal action however I also don't doubt the others who say they needed more. (Mine = Izy 5 sped 2.8)

Sounds like you have done a lot of searching looking for answers.

Sometimes the square bracket the push rod attaches to that is attached to the pedal gets bent out of shape and causes trouble. (search and you can find pics)

At rest is your clutch pedal HIGHER than your brake pedal? It is supposed to be. A lower one can indicate bent clutch pedal stuff.

Is your slave bracket bent and/or flexing?

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 05-29-2010).]

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: Sometimes the square bracket the push rod attaches to that is attached to the pedal gets bent out of shape and causes trouble. (search and you can find pics)

I have replaced the pedal. Isn't this the square-ish part of the pedal that the pushrod attaches to? In replacing the pedal, I think this would be replaced to, no?

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: At rest is your clutch pedal HIGHER than your brake pedal? It is supposed to be. A lower one can indicate bent clutch pedal stuff.

It doesn't appear any higher. This seems rather wierd, as you're the second to tell me so. Perhaps my brake pedal is bent somehow. The clutch pedal is the new, steel variety. I know that's not bent. I wonder if the upper mounting assembly is somehow not aligned properly. I never thought of that until just now. If it's somehow twisted or loose, I can imagine how that would greatly affect things. How many inches is my pedal supposed to travel? For reference, it is an '84. I don't know if anything was different for this year compared to later years.

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: Is your slave bracket bent and/or flexing?

I haven't checked this, however, my newest developments hint a much simpler problem:

I have today determined that my rebuilt slave cylinder is faulty. I had bought it from Rockauto as a remanufactured one.

I bought it last August (I thought I'd be ready for it back then). It's not leaking any fluid, but it's pulling in a load of air through the front seal. I'll be calling Rockauto tomorrow. I hope warranty is still alive. If not, I'll ask for the manager .
I entirely dislike getting faulty parts that are supposed to be, more or less, bolt in. I should have suspected it from the beginning: When I installed it I took it out and opened it up because it didn't seem to be sealing well. There was gunk in the bore. So I cleaned it out w/ clean brake fluid and q-tips. It sealed well: I could put my finger over the threaded connection, and it held a seal. I thought that was mission accomplished. Either something screwed up, or it never really held enough pressure to function, cause, to the best of my knowledge, I never got any clutch disengagement. I'm not ruling out the possibility that I installed either a TO bearing (throwout bearing) or clutch plate incorrectly or that I was misinformed that a Getrag V6 Ram Clutch kit from TFS would work on a Getrag Duke combo w/o modification. (I got this clutch because I'm planning to swap in the v6, but I have to build the engine first and work out everything so that it's as easy an overhaul as possible.) But this may just be it.
I'll keep y'all updated as to if this works or not. Godwilling it will. If not then I am one step closer to removing the tranny. Thanks phonedawgz, whodeanie, and freshj, for your suggestions. Please keep posted to help me get my clutch working right.

Peace,


-Michael

Busted spring on the clutch? im just spitballing.

no, it's brand new

Maybe try this. By getting your pedal to start 1" higher hopefully you can get disengagement.

http://www.rodneydickman.com/n90.html



Have you looked at if your release arm is on the release shaft properly (on the tranny)?

If you don't get anywhere with Rock Auto, get one at your local Napa. About $34. Then do the Getrag slave conversion someone recently posted.

Fierology,

The fix for me was fixing the "low clutch pedal". See https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/108553.html. I BELIEVE it was finally fixed by adjusting a switch on the clutch pedal arm rather than with Rodney's adjustible banjo....but mebbe not.

Good luck to you!

Thanks imacflier. I found I have the same problem. I just corrected it, but that wasn't my only problem.

I'm checking on fieronews.net tranny manual for how the clutch arm is supposed to be positioned, for I did not find it in the factory manual.

My slave is still bad, too. Between these three things, I hope it works. If not, then I probably have to drop the tranny.

-Michael

Fierology,

I think I would try a small bore slave (Isuzu) if you think you need just a bit more throw. That is what I nearly did when I fought with my clutch a week ago. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/096740.html
Rodney sells one with a double seal, VERY high quality!

Larry

Thanks Larry. That's great info and a good thread. I'm definitely getting the Isuzu slave. Unfortunately Rockauto won't let me exchange my defective slave for a different model. I can only get the same getrag model. I'll try a bit more, but I think I'll just have to exchange the getrag slave and sell it somewhere. Then I'll but the Isuzu one.

Anyone know someone that works at Rockauto?

-Michael

What cars definitively came w/ the Isuzu? I called Advanced to see if they have it, and they don't know how to look for a part except for by year/make/model.

-Michael

Hate to tell you this but I had the same problem, new master cyl, rebuilt slave, checked pedal it was ok, and I finally got it(after bleeding and bleeding and bleeding), THEN i heard a noise when letting clutch out like some medal getting caught in the clutch in the bell housing, my dad said it wasn't coming from the transmission then it got worse, I don't think my problem is in the actual gears but I separated the engine and transaxle and bits of medal came out real thin so I have no clue. My dad thinks maybe the guy before me put clutch on backwards but the metal that came out was real thin and small, kinda like a pop can. I have the trans separated but hoping to get it out either later today or tomorrow, so if you are still having the same problem I will let you know what happened to me. Damn car was supposed to be on the road 2 months ago. I too have a swapped isuzu trans in an 84. I dont know what kind of clutch it has in it . If anyone knows what the hell my problem is please I am all ears, I have no clue to what the thin metal would be doing in my bell housing.

Fierology,

Here is a link to the autozone page with the Izzie slave...about $26: http://www.autozone.com/aut...11299999&fromWhere=& itemId=726-0&displayName=Clutch+Slave+Cylinder&searchText=slave

Their partnumber is 12172. But I would buy one from Rodney, instead!

Larry

quote Originally posted by ibook7537: Hate to tell you this but I had the same problem, new master cyl, rebuilt slave, checked pedal it was ok, and I finally got it(after bleeding and bleeding and bleeding), THEN i heard a noise when letting clutch out like some medal getting caught in the clutch in the bell housing, my dad said it wasn't coming from the transmission then it got worse, I don't think my problem is in the actual gears but I separated the engine and transaxle and bits of medal came out real thin so I have no clue. My dad thinks maybe the guy before me put clutch on backwards but the metal that came out was real thin and small, kinda like a pop can. I have the trans separated but hoping to get it out either later today or tomorrow, so if you are still having the same problem I will let you know what happened to me. Damn car was supposed to be on the road 2 months ago. I too have a swapped isuzu trans in an 84. I dont know what kind of clutch it has in it . If anyone knows what the hell my problem is please I am all ears, I have no clue to what the thin metal would be doing in my bell housing.

Thanks ibook.
I'll be very interested to see what the problem was. This concerns me as, if the reason mine isn't disengaging is because of a backwards clutch disk, I may cause much bigger problems by compensating with a longer stroke slave.

Thanks,
Michael

quote Originally posted by Fierology: Are there definitive ways to determine if a clutch plate is on wrong w/o removing the transaxle? Even if I take off the flywheel access plate, I don't think I'll be able to see anything except, perhaps, determine if the clutch plate was on wrong. I don't want to do more work what I have to. If I get the Isuzu slave on there and it works, is it still possible that my clutch plate is on backwards? I'm familiar with clutch function, but I'm not intimate enough w/ their workings to know how this will affect function. I have a brand-new high-quality plate in there, and I don't want to ruin it just because I didn't want to remove the tranny. -Michael

Take off the access plate and slip a mirror/light in there. Is the clutch disk wear surface OFF of the flywheel? The 'hat' of the clutch disk would hold the wear surface of the clutch disk off of the flywheel if installed backwards. The 'spring hat' would hit the flywheel first. Look at your old clutch disk and you should see that.

quote Originally posted by Fierology: If I get the Isuzu slave on there and it works, is it still possible that my clutch plate is on backwards? -Michael

Since you would have the metal spring hat hit the flywheel first I am sure you would hear some VERY nasty noises. Not sure if the flywheel bolts would interfere with the hat springs, but if it did you would get NO slip until the two of them became disjointed. You would also have no slip when you went to engage the clutch if the bolts hit the springs.

In other words, if the clutch works correctly after you replace the slave, forget any ideas that you assembled it backwards.

quote Originally posted by Fierology: Also, can I remove the tranny and leave the engine in the car? I'm think I would support the engine on the towers and unbolt the four cradle bolts, tranny-engine bolts, and tower-to-strut bolts. I'm thinking I may also have to remove the tranny mount bolts so that I can slide it away from the engine enough to the the spline off. Will this work? -Michael

Almost EVERYBODY who tries this says afterwards that dropping the cradle is MUCH easier. You have to balance the tranny in the air, where there is very little room and hardly any good place for anyone to hold it and then with its off center weight try to line it up to the engine. Almost ALL the work is done on your back or between the engine and car. If you have the setup to pull the cradle, I would HIGHLY recommend it.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 06-07-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Phonedawgz: Almost EVERYBODY who tries this says afterwards that dropping the cradle is MUCH easier. You have to balance the tranny in the air, where there is very little room and hardly any good place for anyone to hold it and then with its off center weight try to line it up to the engine. Almost ALL the work is done on your back or between the engine and car. If you have the setup to pull the cradle, I would HIGHLY recommend it.

By removing the cradle, do you mean the whole engine/transaxle assembly? If it doesn't work w/ the Isuzu slave or makes nasty noises, I was thinking I'd try to dropping cradle, but trying to support the block on the towers. W/ my scenario, I'd be taking out my cradle, tranny, axles, suspension components, and the engine would remain in the car. I guess you're saying this wouldn't work, right? Ah, I guess it's not to much more work to remove the rest of it.

It's good to note that when I lifted the back up I was able to run the car in gear (1's through 4th, never tested 5 or R) and got good, noiseless contact w/ the clutch.

My guess is that I did install in right. I tend to be meticulous, so, as long as I wasn't too tired or rushing, I may be okay.

Thanks Phonedawgz, and big plus to you.

-Michael

[This message has been edited by Fierology (edited 06-08-2010).]

Just to let you know what happened in my situation. I dont think it will be the same problem but here goes. I got the trans out and a lovely clutch spring lodged itself into the pressure plate along with the housing and about half of the other housings. Looks like the guy who had the car before me had more than a little "fun" with the car. Looks like it will only be $90 at advanced auto so I am really just pissed at having to take the damn thing out. Hope your problem is resolved without having to drop the cradle but if you do have to drop the cradle just drop it dont try to shimmy the trans out it is a bear and wont really happen. Best of Luck
Vince

Thanks. I just ordered Rodney's Isuzu slave yesterday. I'll report as to success or failure.

-Michael

I have now driven my Fiero for the first time!

But not all clutch issues are solved. It disengages enough to idle in gear w/ the clutch pedal depressed, but it's contacting a little still. I need a little more push.
I am getting 1 1/8" stroke at the Isuzu slave. This seems low to me: what are others getting with this setup? (Isuzu slave on Getrag tranny, stock MC.) I'm not sure if it makes a difference, but I have a first design slave that has been replaced a couple months ago. It was from Rockauto. Per my luck w/ Rockauto's slave, I suspect the "new" MC might be bad.

Also, how critical is pushrod length? Mine's a shortened '84 4spd pushrod, not sure of length. Right now I'm about to check that and perhaps adjust it's length to that which someone w/ my setup reported as effective.

On the bright side, I drove instead of pushed it out of the garage today to work.

Thanks,
-Michael

------------------
"A guy know's he's in love when he loses interest in his car for a few days." -Tim Allen

He who dies with the most toys... still dies.


Check out my restoration!

bump

You have more stroke than me.

It's not the size of your stroke, it's.. idk something I can't remember anymore.

I'm just under 1" on a Izzy with a 2.8

My pushrod got lost during the install. What I did is figure where the slave piston was bottomed in the clyinder, and using that and the clutch fork pushed till it was tight and then gave it just a bit of clearance so it wasn't binding at released. The spring in the slave will hold the piston against the pushrod. The two problems you could have with the pushrod lenght are -

Too long - There is always pressure on the shift fork - Your riding on the throwout bearing - Your clutch might even be slipping some. If you have some pushrod clearance (ie your pushrod can be pushed back into the cylinder at least a little - you should be good.

Too short - Your slave piston will "TOP" out to the end of the cylinder - and hit the c-clip. You should feel this at the pedal. If your pedal can't travel to the floor your most likely experencing this. If you FORCE the pedal - you stand to bend the pushrod bracket on the pedal - or bend the master cylinder pushrod.

Unlike what Archie says - the pushrod lenght has nothing to do with the pedal returning all the way up and opening up the bypass port in the MC. There is a spring in the MC that pushes up the pedal when your foot isn't on it. Yes the pressure from the slave also pushes up the pedal. However since when you bleed your clutch, there is NO fluid pressure pushing back on the MC, and the pedal STILL returns all the way up - that proves that the spring in the MC is enough to do it. IF the pedal didn't return all the way up - opening up the bypass port - you wouldn't be able to bleed your clutch.

As long as your not bottoming out, or topping out your slave cylinder during the full stroke of the slave - it shouldn't matter where the piston is, OR how long your pushrod is. That said - I'd still try a little longer one - just make sure you don't get the piston all the way down - and then have more than just the slave spring pressure pushing on the push rod.

---

So try this also - try 5 or 10 rapid strokes of the clutch pedal and see then if you can get full disengagement of the clutch with the engine running. IF you do - that means your compressing some air somewhere still in the system.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 06-24-2010).]

Thanks Phonedawg. I'd give you a plus, but I already did so.

I'm going to try the pumping thing.

But I may know my problem. If my MC is functioning properly and pumping doesn't give me a properly disengaging clutch, then I think I just have the wrong clutch on my engine/tranny combination. When I bought this clutch, a ram clutch, I got the V6/5spd version even though I have a Duke 5spd. This is because I'm planning to swap in the 2.8 in the near future (it's already in my garage) but I wanted my first engine to be a simpler, lower-stakes build. I was told that the V6/5spd clutch would mate fine to my setup, perhaps just being a little more pressure at the pressure plate. But I'm not so sure I was given good information. It feels like everything is in right, but I just need a little more extension on the clutch arm, extension which I'm not sure my arm/fork can safely give.

Does anyone know if the 2.8 V6 sets the clutch assembly farther into the bell-housing than does the Duke? Seeing that I have a Getrag transmission, the fork would be right as would the arm position.

One idea I had was that perhaps my arm is incorrect. Was the clutch arm on the Getrag shorter than the arm on the 4spd muncies? I have my old 4spd munchie arm, and it's longer than the one that came with my Getrag. However, I think I have the right arm, as it lines up with the pushrod on the slave.

I know I'll figure this out eventually, but it has been very discouraging.

Thanks to everyone so far, and if you have any ideas, please voice them, for I think I've nearly exhausted my options, short of dropping the drivetrain.

-Michael

Since your pushing on the end of the arm, a SHORTER arm will give you more rotation of the pivot. If you have the longer arm on it, I'd suggest trying the shorter one and see what you get.

Does your arm look like this one?

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 06-26-2010).]

Oh, yeah, you're completely right: longer clutch arm = lesser rotation. I have the shorter one on there, and it looks like yours. So that doesn't seem to be the problem. I'll report back when I've tried the longer pushrod.

-Michael

That's not mine - I "stole" that picture from a post by overall good guy BuddyCraigg.

I found out my problem. It was a stupid mistake. I put my clutch disk on backwards and wound up destroying it. It look good at first sight, but it's no good now. I will have to buy a new one from Ram. Now, I have two old clutch disks lying around, one from a duke and one from a 2.8. Would it be a bad idea to inspect either of these and use it for now? I figure with my stock duke I won't be making enough power to take advantage of the ram 2.8/5spd clutch, then I can but the ram disk when I swap for the 2.8. I wonder how many miles I should expect out of the ram clutch. I already have the ram pressure plate and T/O bearing on there.

Thanks everyone for all the help.

-Michael

Hmm - I would have said that it would be pretty much impossible to get the pressure plate bolted down with the clutch upside down and the 'hat' holding it off the flywheel even that much more.

I was wrong. That would have been my last guess for sure.

Now that I have my tranny off the engine again, I want to inspect my fork to see if it should be replaced. How much do these wear? I'll be posting this as a main thread here, so if anyone has a response, please post it there so that everything is in one place.

thanks!
-Michael

EDIT:link error

[This message has been edited by Fierology (edited 07-10-2010).]

Took the engine out, replaced the clutch disc, which I had installed backwards, put it all back together, clutch pedal felt great, started it up, she shifted like a dream. Then she warmed up a little bit and now won't shift at all. I bled the system, but perhaps not perfectly, for she won't shift properly. She'll shift cold just fine, but once she warms up, no good. The fluid is new, so I know it's not moisture-ridden. I also bled the slave, so there shouldn't have been any air in there. There must be air that's expanding with the heat, but this is Rodney's Isuzu slave. There shouldn't be any air leaking in. it's double-sealed and well constructed.

Any ideas would be hot.

I'll post with updates.

-Michael