A properly converted Fiero system using R-134a will cool every bit as good as R12 did. Many complaints about R-134a not cooling as well as R12 in conversions were and are generated because the conversion was not done properly or worn out A/C system components were reused when they should have been replaced. And simply going to the parts store and buying an R-12 to R-134a conversion kit and dumping that into your car is not a proper conversion. The entire Fiero A/C system must be flushed of all old oil and the accumulator and expansion valve (orifice tube) must be replaced. New variable expansion valves are available that will work in the Fiero that enhance the cooling ability of R-134a and put the system on-par with OEM R-12 cooling performance. If your Fiero is still using the factory A/C compressor, chances are it is worn out if it has any kind of miles on it and probably needs to be replaced. Trying to use a worn out compressor with any kind of refrigerant is not going to produce good results.
I advise people stay away from R-12 replacement alternatives such as Freeze-12. Why? Who is going to service your system after it is converted? The EPA mandates that different refrigerant types be kept seperate, this means you need different servicing equipment for every refrigerant type you (or your shop) services. Most repair shops these days only have equipment to handle R-134a refrigerant. Few still have R-12 dedicated equipment. And fewer yet have anything that they would be willing to use to work on your car if it has Freeze-12 or some other R-12 alternative refrigerant in it.
If you have the equipment to service your own A/C system and you want to use Freeze-12 or some other R-12 alternative, then by all means use it if you want to. But if you can't service it yourself and a shop that is willing to is hard to find, you may be better off just doing the R-134a retrofit. Today R-134a retails for about $3.00-4.00 per pound and every shop that services automotive A/C systems will service it.
-ryan MACS Licensed Automotive A/C Technician ------------------ 6+ years on this same swap -- NO engine or transmission failures... Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 05-25-2010).]
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07:26 PM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15761 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
Nothing against Freeze 12 but its mostly R-134a. I use R-134A for the Fiero conversions that I have done and the results have been great. I get very cold A/C performance. It will make it very comfortable on even 95*F days. The outlet temps with R-134A are about 38*-39*F with R-12 about 34-36*F. Thats too little to make a big difference, The key is to do the retrofit correctly flushing and using a new accumulator with the proper amount of oil and refrigerent.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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07:29 PM
deceler8 Member
Posts: 2139 From: Sioux City, Iowa USA Registered: Sep 1999
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Those hydrocarbon refrigerents work great. Trouble is that they are also highly explosive. Those cans of "Envirosafe" are basically cheap Butane camp fuel ( sold at high prices for refrigerent) and putting it in your A/C system is dangerous. In an A/C system Butane and oil are under pressure, if the mixture escapes, and ignites, you have a fire bomb. There are some videos of cars blowing up online with cars using Envirosafe in the A/C system. (like the above)
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 05-26-2010).]
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12:12 AM
steve308 Member
Posts: 4035 From: Stafford VA Registered: Jan 2008
If your system has failed----do a proper and complete conversion to 134 --- do it right and with the fiero's small cabin you will have no problem with 134. If your original system (Freon 12) is just low you can drop freeze 12 in on top (even though your not suppose to mix refrigerents). The blend in freeze 12 has operating pressures closer to freon 12 which can be a plus in an older system. BE SURE TO MARK YOUR SYSTEM. Don't be that guy who destroys a shops recycling machine when and if you do take it in for a service!
Such substitution is widely prohibited or discouraged in motor vehicle air-conditioning systems, on the grounds that using flammable hydrocarbons in systems originally designed to carry non-flammable refrigerant presents a significant risk of fire or explosion.[10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17]
Vendors and advocates of hydrocarbon refrigerants argue against such bans on the grounds that there have been very few such incidents relative to the number of vehicle air conditioning systems filled with hydrocarbons.[18][19] One particular test was conducted by a professor at the University of New South Wales that unintentionally tested the worst case scenario of a sudden and complete refrigerant loss into the passenger compartment followed by subsequent ignition. He and several others in the car sustained burns to the face, ears, and hands, and several observers received lacerations from the burst glass of the front passenger window.[20]
Use Google and hydrocarbon refrigerant explosion hydrocarbon refrigerant fire
Remember... OE refrigerant is Non Flammable. System in made for just that... Soft rubber hose, Main AC compressor crank seal, etc, is not made for Flammable refrigerant.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
For the record: While I have no experience with Freeze 12 and would never use it in any of my own cars, it was listed as of June 3, 1997 under the EPA SNAP Program as an acceptable substitute for R-12, "... subject to (unique) fittings, (proper) labeling, no drop-in, and compressor shutoff switch use conditions.". According to the EPA, Freeze 12 consists of 80% R-134a (HFC) and 20% R-142b (HCFC).
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 05-27-2010).]
And note: If you have a leak, even a very small leak, you must drain All freeze 12 to fix it. (Like you had a loose connection and you had to tighten it, etc.) Why...
R12 or R134 is one type of refrigerant. Easy to add more refrigerant is based on pressure.
Freeze 12 has Two, at lest, kinds of refrigerant and they leak/evaporate at different rates. The only way to know is to drop all old refrigerant then use new stuff. You never know what the mix is unless you replace it with all new Freeze 12. Same with all mix/blend type product. Every time the system is low on refrigerant... Drain all old Freeze 12 and add new.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
The boiling point of R134a is -15 deg F The boiling point of R12 is -21 deg F The boiling point of ES12a is -30.4 deg F
Compared to a desirable outlet temp of 50 deg F, the boiling point of ES12a is 23.7% colder than R134a and 13.2% colder than R12. Just for fun facts, R12 is 9.2% colder than R134a.
So ES12a would be colder than either R134a or R12.
There are other, more technical factors involved. To state it in in a non-technical way for the audience here, ES-12a is composed of 'larger' molecules and is capable of transporting more heat.
If you look at a chart of recognized refrigerants, please note carefully what R290 is.
Yes boys and girls, evil, awful, blow up your car today propane, has a refrigerant number, R290. I'm thinking that someone knows something beyond what has been discussed here.
And this is from the EPS SNAP page:
"Is sale of hydrocarbon refrigerants legal? Sale of subtitute refrigerants listed under the SNAP program is not regulated under SNAP."
If some can point me directly to the NHTSA citation banning R290 is automobiles, please do so. I need this for a project at work.
Thanks,
Steve
------------------ Steve AT 88GTP DOT com 88 GT\3800 SC\4T65E-HD
Wanna go faster?
[This message has been edited by Steve25 (edited 05-27-2010).]
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09:01 PM
Frizlefrak Member
Posts: 2921 From: El Paso, Texas Registered: Aug 2003
Yes boys and girls, evil, awful, blow up your car today propane, has a refrigerant number, R290. I'm thinking that someone knows something beyond what has been discussed here.
May be, but it cooks a damn tasty bratwurst
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09:05 PM
May 28th, 2010
Marvin McInnis Member
Posts: 11599 From: ~ Kansas City, USA Registered: Apr 2002
Freeze 12 has Two ... kinds of refrigerant and they leak/evaporate at different rates. The only way to know is to drop all old refrigerant then use new stuff. You never know what the mix is unless you replace it with all new Freeze 12. Same with all mix/blend type product. Every time the system is low on refrigerant... Drain all old Freeze 12 and add new.
Excellent point. Refrigerant mixtures like Freeze 12 are zeotropes, meaning that the individual contituents maintain their independent boiling points and vapor pressures. One effect of this is that zeotropes exhibits a property called "temperature glide," meaning that different mixture ratios have different thermodynamic properties.
Another result is that zeotropes like Freeze 12 must be added to a system in liquid form, else you are not guaranteed that the proper, as-manufactured constituent ratio will be preserved.
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 05-28-2010).]
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12:25 AM
PFF
System Bot
masospaghetti Member
Posts: 2477 From: Charlotte, NC USA Registered: Dec 2009
I would agree with most others here and just use R-134a.
The cooling performance is plenty for such a small cabin space in the Fiero. I just installed a reman compressor, new fixed orifice tube (not the variable orifice) and a new accumulator with R-134a. It blows COLD. There is no reason to risk your life and your car from becoming a fireball by using explosive refrigerant.
quote
maybe we should empty our gas tanks and replace it with water, wouldn't want to risk it.
the fuel system was designed to contain a flammable substance. The A/C system was not.
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03:56 PM
Marvin McInnis Member
Posts: 11599 From: ~ Kansas City, USA Registered: Apr 2002
My AC compressor was broken. I replaced it (got it from auto parts), replaced the accumulator and let it recharged with R134a. It works very well and very smoothly.
In Europe, R12 is strictly forbidden! If you own any, you can be prosecuted and get serious fine.
------------------ Bernard Fiero V6 GT 1987 (Manual)
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12:39 AM
Marvin McInnis Member
Posts: 11599 From: ~ Kansas City, USA Registered: Apr 2002
In Europe, R12 is strictly forbidden! If you own any, you can be prosecuted and get serious fine.
In accordance with the Montreal Protocol, in the U.S. it has been illegal to manufacture or import R-12 since 1993. However, existing stocks of R-12 (as of 1993) could continue to be used, and R-12 can legally be recovered, recycled, remanufactured, and reused indefinitely. Virtually all of the R-12 being used in the U.S. today has been recycled at least once. It is still strictly illegal to vent R-12 into the atmosphere, except for unintentional "de minimis" releases. I think this is a reasonable policy.
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 06-11-2010).]
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11:11 AM
May 30th, 2010
sardonyx247 Member
Posts: 5032 From: Nevada, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Just use 134a, in my GT with only one vent open and on low fan, (yes I know this is not the standard to measure) but I can get it coming out of the vent at 33 degs Can't get better as it shuts off at 32. Vents open and on high it is about 38 to 40ish and this is in Vegas. Just do it RIGHT and 134a is fine. But to use ANYTHING else but 134a or R12, if you ever need service every shop will tell you to go away as no one wants to contaminate their equipment. Besides 134a is cheaper than freeze12. And freeze12 is just 80% 134a anyway. BTW doing it right is flushing the system, new drier and orifice tube, don't try to flush the condenser or evaporator or you WILL just blow your new compressor. as they can not be flushed and get all the flush out. If they need to be flushed, you HAVE to replace them.
