im looking to do a remote start on both my cars, aveo and fiero. since the aveo is the cheapest you can buy a car, it has NO options. so all i need it to do is remote start. none of that keyless entry window up down crap. the fiero is going to however get a very nice and expensive alarm.

this is directed mostly towards my aveo, and since there are a lot of no option fieros on here that im sure would benifit from a remote start, i ask on here and not in T O/T.

my biggest concern with a remote start is the safety of not being able to start it with the car in gear. ive seen some modules that require you to tap your brakes, set the parking brake, turn the ignition off and then get out and shut the door. in that order. only then will the remote start be engaged and the engine will shut off when the door is shut. is this the only option? or are there others out there? i was thinking i would rig up some kind of mini switch assembly on the shift handle that closes a circuit when in 1st or reverse. but then i heard of this remote start module for manuals. found one module bye DEI. its the DEI 689M Neutral Safety Module...

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First LX9 Fiero GT, 1987 | My Fiero Fuel Economy | MPG Display for OBD I
Youtube Videos of My GT | modernize your fiero with technology!
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem
Fiero's are people too. We pay just as much attention to them, if not more than our loved ones
screw paying those bastards. im not going to become rich by paying for things.....

[This message has been edited by americasfuture2k (edited 12-11-2009).]

one thing to look into is your local laws. Some states actually make it illegal to run a remote start on a manual. When i was thinking of doing it I was looking to wiring into the parking break switch. When pulled up it created the circuit to allow the remote start to engage. But never really like the fact of not being able to make sure car was out of gear.

its not illegal if you dont get caught and remote start wont be engaged unless you do the proper engaging procedure. and if i only know how to do it, i wont have to worry about accidental starts in gear.

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First LX9 Fiero GT, 1987 | My Fiero Fuel Economy | MPG Display for OBD I
Youtube Videos of My GT | modernize your fiero with technology!
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem
Fiero's are people too. We pay just as much attention to them, if not more than our loved ones
screw paying those bastards. im not going to become rich by paying for things.....

[This message has been edited by americasfuture2k (edited 12-11-2009).]

I would put a switch on the parking brake and on the shift AND select arms of the transaxle in such a way that they are both closed only when it is in neutral. Have the parking brake switch close when the brake is activated. If done this way, you waould have t have the brake on and the tranny in neutral before the remote starter could get any power. If any of these switches are opened (the shifter gets moved or the brake is released) then the whole mess shuts down.

That's the way I was planning to do it, but haven't got to it yet.

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1986 SE 350 V8

The remote starter would also have to bypass the clutch peddle switch.

Personally I would not do it.. but that is just me..

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 12-11-2009).]

The only thing you really need is a neutral detection switch.

All you need is a switch on the SHIFT cable. It shouldn't be too hard to make a switch linkage with the shifter under the center console.

A select cable switch is not necessary, because neutral exists for the full left-right motion range.

The parking brake switch is probably a good idea, but then again, if the car was going to roll, it would have rolled anyway with or without the engine running.

I would use at a minimum two neutral detection switches. If both switches do not agree with each other about the neutral status, the car does not start. You can use an XOR gate to detect if the switches do not agree with each other.

There are remote starters that are specifically made for use with manual transmission cars (providing they are installed properly) - you can NOT start the car unless you go through the proper shut down proceedure.

This involves: placing the car in neutral, set barking brake (foot off brake and clutch pedals), pressing the set button and then removing your key (this leaves the car running), exit the car, close the door and then press the arm/start button (IIRC on mine it is the door lock button). This will shut the motor off and place the car into a ready state for remote start. If you open the door before remote starting the remote start is disabled - also, you can not deviate from this proceedure or the module will NOT allow a remote start (such as touching the brake or clutch pedal as your exit).

Basically what this is saying, if you were able to get out of your car, close the door while leaving it running it will be safe to remote start it.

Now of course, if your parking brake does not work - I wouldn't do this, nothing like having your car roll away on you.


edit >> you don't jumper the clutch switch, the units wire in after the brake and clutch switches (touching the brake or clutch will turn off the remote start as it does when you touch the brake pedal in an automatic car).

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 12-11-2009).]

quote Originally posted by pmbrunelle: The only thing you really need is a neutral detection switch. All you need is a switch on the SHIFT cable. It shouldn't be too hard to make a switch linkage with the shifter under the center console. A select cable switch is not necessary, because neutral exists for the full left-right motion range. The parking brake switch is probably a good idea, but then again, if the car was going to roll, it would have rolled anyway with or without the engine running. I would use at a minimum two neutral detection switches. If both switches do not agree with each other about the neutral status, the car does not start. You can use an XOR gate to detect if the switches do not agree with each other.

Personally if and when I do a remote start on my manual the above strategy is what I intend to do.

I don't like the shut down sequence because the remote start will fail if you didn't remember to go through the sequence even though the car is in-fact safe to start.

The parking brake is unreliable because it's biased towards lighting up when the brake is ever so slightly engaged. This protects you from driving with the brake barely engaged and overheating the brakes. This is the exact opposite from what you want from a remote start. You want the brakes fully engaged before the car will start, and even then there is no guarantee that the parking brake is adjusted properly and will prevent the car from moving/starting.

The neutral switch under the console is the only way to know for sure if the car is in neutral, and you can make it fail safe to where the car won't start unless you get a closed indication on a switch, (and I like the idea of having two switches where they both have to be closed)

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 12-11-2009).]

quote Originally posted by jscott1: The neutral switch under the console is the only way to know for sure if the car is in neutral, and you can make it fail safe to where the car won't start unless you get a closed indication on a switch, (and I like the idea of having two switches where they both have to be closed)

...but...if you exit the car and close the door with it still running, would that not indicate that it was in neutral? Just saying...

quote Originally posted by jscott1: The parking brake is unreliable because it's biased towards lighting up when the brake is ever so slightly engaged. This protects you from driving with the brake barely engaged and overheating the brakes. This is the exact opposite from what you want from a remote start. You want the brakes fully engaged before the car will start, and even then there is no guarantee that the parking brake is adjusted properly and will prevent the car from moving/starting.

It's not entirely relying on the parking brake to be set, it is just one part of the sequence - it has to see the parking brake set, the brake and clutch pedal NOT pressed, for the door to open, then close and then the operator pressing the button on the key fob to say they are clear of the car and it is safe - only then will it allow you to remote start it - all 6 items would have to fail in order for the car to be started by remote while in gear.

If you buy the "standard transmission" car starter, you have to go through the sequence, there is no way around it. Now if you buy an "auto" kit and use the switch on the select cable you are kind of bypassing the safety aspect of the "manual" kit. The manual kit is making sure that the brake is set, in neutral and you have gotten out of the car while it is running before it is set. The auto kit would only care if the select cable switch is made or not - and if it fails while in gear and the start button is pressed...

quote Originally posted by jscott1: I don't like the shut down sequence because the remote start will fail if you didn't remember to go through the sequence even though the car is in-fact safe to start.

Agree that the shut down sequence is a pain (and remembering to do it, plus the time involved), but, you would know right away if you failed the sequence as the car does not stay running when you remove the key from the switch (also if you accidently hit the brake/clutch pedal on your way out, don't close the door all the way or open the door again after you press the set (I am out and leaving the car) button. If your parking brake is not properly set, who is to say that you will properly set it otherwise - the car will still roll as it would be in neutral.

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 12-11-2009).]

I'm not gonna tell how to do it but if you do install it make dang sure you do it right, I worked at a shop where a fellow brought his F150 with a manual trans in for service, the Tech went out to the lot to bring the vehicle in and was pushing the key fob buttons thinking 1 of them would unlock the door, well it started up and took off like a bat outta hell went straight through my shop overhead door and smashed into the hoist..............thank God I had called in sick that morning !

quote Originally posted by AmericanMuscle: I'm not gonna tell how to do it but if you do install it make dang sure you do it right, I worked at a shop where a fellow brought his F150 with a manual trans in for service, the Tech went out to the lot to bring the vehicle in and was pushing the key fob buttons thinking 1 of them would unlock the door, well it started up and took off like a bat outta hell went straight through my shop overhead door and smashed into the hoist..............thank God I had called in sick that morning !

That is the BIG problem with backyard mechanics and car starters:

1) not knowing that there is a different kit for manual vehicles (or to cheap to spend the little bit extra for the manual kit - although there are some out the that can be used with both but you have to configure it for the transmission type and they set it wrong).

2) take shortcuts because it is 'too much extra work' to install the extra wires for the manual.

In that case the owner of the truck would be liable as it was an improper install and he did not make the shop aware that it had a remote starter. All shops that I have been to ask you right up front if you have one before they accept the vehicle for service. I know, this still doesn't help the fact if you are killed or injured...

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 12-11-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: It's not entirely relying on the parking brake to be set, it is just one part of the sequence - it has to see the parking brake set, the brake and clutch pedal NOT pressed, for the door to open, then close and then the operator pressing the button on the key fob to say they are clear of the car and it is safe - only then will it allow you to remote start it - all 6 items would have to fail in order for the car to be started by remote while in gear. If you buy the "standard transmission" car starter, you have to go through the sequence, there is no way around it. Now if you buy an "auto" kit and use the switch on the select cable you are kind of bypassing the safety aspect of the "manual" kit. The manual kit is making sure that the brake is set, in neutral and you have gotten out of the car while it is running before it is set. The auto kit would only care if the select cable switch is made or not - and if it fails while in gear and the start button is pressed...

The shutdown sequence is the only method I know that a shop would install a remote start on a manual. But we all know that when you do it yourself there are many other options. My remote start kit doesn't know whether or not the car is manual or an auto, it just sends the command to start the car when you push the button. It's up to the installer to decide on the proper safety precautions. To say there is "no way around it" is a bit strong and not quite correct.

I would put the hand brake in the safety loop just for grins but my point is the hand brake provides little assurance that it's safe to start the car. The shut down sequence DOES insure that the car is in neutral but the inconvenience is too great for me to accept. I want a remote start that operates as close to seemless as possible.

Why no manual transmission includes a neutral switch is beyond me, but in my humble opinion adding one, (or two) is the proper way to overcome the safety concern of remote starting a manual transmission car.

Directed has a module, the DEI 689M. i m still looking into it more to see exactly how this thing works. i have the owners install manual...

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First LX9 Fiero GT, 1987 | My Fiero Fuel Economy | MPG Display for OBD I
Youtube Videos of My GT | modernize your fiero with technology!
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem
Fiero's are people too. We pay just as much attention to them, if not more than our loved ones
screw paying those bastards. im not going to become rich by paying for things.....

I would not trust a remote start unless it had a robotic clutch pedal activator

tho, I fully understand the want for a remote start

quote Originally posted by jscott1: The shutdown sequence is the only method I know that a shop would install a remote start on a manual. But we all know that when you do it yourself there are many other options. My remote start kit doesn't know whether or not the car is manual or an auto, it just sends the command to start the car when you push the button. It's up to the installer to decide on the proper safety precautions. To say there is "no way around it" is a bit strong and not quite correct.

Heh: There is no way to bypass the shut down procedure, in a manual kit, as is part of the programming in the prom and can not be bypassed (well I suppose you can reprogram the prom).

The kit you have is probably for an automatic car then (that or a dual). There is a physical difference on the manual kits as it has extra inputs needed (my auto kit I have in my truck does not monitor the dome light or the parking brake - no inputs for them vs the manual kit I have installed in the 86 Fiero). Can the ebrake/etc be bypassed on a manual kit? Sure with 'creative' wiring, but you will still have to go through the 'pain in the butt' shut down procedure (there is no way around that). With automatic kits, there is no shut down procedure, you just turn the key off and leave.

Dual kits, as I noted above there are starters out there that are for both auto and manual cars - but you still have to tell (program) it which car you have and wire accordingly (of which can still be screwed up by the installer). Starters will not work until they are programmed, which is another pain in the rear if you remove the battery for long periods of time as the memory is wiped, nothing works, not even the keyless entry - I have had to program the one in the Fiero a few times already due to the battery being disconnected for a few days while I fix something.

Installing neutral switches are fine if you want the extra piece of mind, but not really necessary because of the shut down procedure, however if you install a unit as/or for automatic cars (the only way to defeat the shutdown proceedure) - yes, I personally would add the neutral switches as it would be your only protection.

...anyways...

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: I would not trust a remote start unless it had a robotic clutch pedal activator

LOL!, Now that is an implementation I had not thought of...

Tim, my remote start is just an add on to my alarm system. I think it automatically assumed that the car is an auto, and for a manual they assume you are going to add the box with all the logic in it for the shutdown sequence for the manual. Lot of assumptions there, and plenty of opportunities for the installer to bypass the shutdown sequence.

Maybe it's just me but the shutdown sequence sounds like a huge PITA. My truck has remote start built in from the factory and fails 10% of the time. I can't imagine how frustrating it would be if the remote start only worked less than half the time based on me forgetting to do the shutdown sequence properly.

scott, is your truck one of the new chevys?

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First LX9 Fiero GT, 1987 | My Fiero Fuel Economy | MPG Display for OBD I
Youtube Videos of My GT | modernize your fiero with technology!
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem
Fiero's are people too. We pay just as much attention to them, if not more than our loved ones
screw paying those bastards. im not going to become rich by paying for things.....

quote Originally posted by americasfuture2k: scott, is your truck one of the new chevys?

Yep, an 07 Avalanche.

I managed to capture a failed remote start on video...the Chevy service manager has no idea why it does this from time to time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B56CJtQsWQ4

Getting off topic I know, however my boss just picked up a new GMC 2500HD, and his factory remote start does the same thing, sometimes it just doesn't work, even though I follow all the proper steps.

I have a nice one on my car DIYStu actually did the install but after I converted the car to a five speed from Auto I unplugged it. was not worth what could happen. Good luck with it would be nice if it was safe to have

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Yep, an 07 Avalanche. I managed to capture a failed remote start on video...the Chevy service manager has no idea why it does this from time to time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B56CJtQsWQ4

I am not sure how the factory ones monitor that the engine has started (aftermarket ones look for a tach pulse) - maybe it is related to that some how or something to do with the anti-theft?

Now that, I have thought about it - I am thinking more along the anti-theft line or maybe the fuel pump cuts off. You would have to check some voltages when it is happening which is a real pain if it only does it once in a while. I should see if I can find some wiring diagrams for the truck...

I know in PA it is illeagl to bypass the clutch peddel and you must do this to install a remote start. I would look into your local laws. You might get a nasty little surprise come inspection time.

quote Originally posted by pontiackid86: I know in PA it is illeagl to bypass the clutch peddel and you must do this to install a remote start. I would look into your local laws. You might get a nasty little surprise come inspection time.

....NO, you do not bypass the clutch pedal - if installed correctly it monitors the clutch pedal to make sure it is NOT pressed (if pressed it will not remote start). I suppose you could say that it bypasses the pedal since it accesses the starter directly, but you in no way jumper out the clutch pedal switch.

Jonathan - you have a PM.

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 12-14-2009).]

Thanks Tim,

I'm starting to like the idea of the robotic clutch pedal activation. I would bet that you could install a linear actuator to activate the clutch and then for extra security another one to activate the brake before the remote start command is sent. That way a remote start could occur with 100% certainty that the car is not going to take off on you.

Then for double extra security you could add the neutral switch and wire in the handbrake as well.

The only thing I haven't worked out in my head is how slow it would be for the pedals to activate. Maybe there are some high torque high speed actuators that would only take a couple of seconds to go full stroke?

quote Originally posted by pontiackid86: I know in PA it is illeagl to bypass the clutch peddel and you must do this to install a remote start. I would look into your local laws. You might get a nasty little surprise come inspection time.

What inspections?

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First LX9 Fiero GT, 1987 | My Fiero Fuel Economy | MPG Display for OBD I
Youtube Videos of My GT | modernize your fiero with technology!
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem
Fiero's are people too. We pay just as much attention to them, if not more than our loved ones
screw paying those bastards. im not going to become rich by paying for things.....

Thanks a lot Pyrthian...I can't stop thinking about my robotic clutch pedal...

I found some high speed actuators that would stroke my clutch in about 2 seconds.

http://www.firgelliauto.com...2_69&products_id=159

My clutch has about a 5 inch stroke but I'm sure after 4 inches it would be disengaged. I need a fish scale to see how much force is needed, but I would guess less than 35 pounds. Still a couple of seconds is not too long to wait for the remote start to kick in.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: I found some high speed actuators that would stroke my clutch in about 2 seconds.

heh...heh.. he said "stroke my clutch"...he...heh

If you do have such an actuator, it would have to freewheel when off, so it wouldn't affect clutch pedal feel.

For security the clutch pedal would not release until the key is put in.
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Okay I spent way more time thinking about this than I should, but here is what NASA would do for maximum safety in a manual car with remote start…


* T-minus 32 seconds and Remote Start Activated

* T-minus 31 seconds and the Remote Start Sequencer is controlling

* T-minus 30 seconds and the Remote Start Sequencer has sent a command to lock both doors, 2 of 2 doors locked talkback sensors required for remote start, else abort

* T-minus 29 seconds and the Remote Start Sequencer has sent the command for the windows to roll up, within 10 seconds both windows rolled up position indicators required for Remote Start, else abort

* T-minus 18 seconds and the Occupant sensors required to indicate the car is unoccupied, in the event that one of the two occupant sensors disagree then the seat vacant sensor will be the tie breaker and allow remote start to continue, else abort

* T-minus 16 seconds and the Remote Start Sequencer has commanded the Handbrake to the fully engaged position. Within 3 seconds the Handbrake position sensor, handbrake cable tension sensor, and left rear and right rear caliper position sensors required to indicate full engagement of rear brakes, else abort

* T-minus 13 seconds and the Remote Start Sequencer has commanded the clutch to the full disengaged position. Within 3 seconds clutch pedal position indicator should indicate 100% clutch pedal movement, this should be confirmed by the clutch hydraulic line pressure indicator and the throw out bearing position indicator, else abort,

* T-minus 10 seconds and the Remote Start Sequencer has commanded the regular brake to the full engaged position, within 3 seconds the brake pedal position indicator should indicate 100% brake pedal movement, this should be confirmed by the brake hydraulic line pressure indicator and front left and front right caliper position indicators, else abort,

* T-minus 7 seconds and the Remote Start Sequencer has commanded the engine pre-oiling system to the on position, within 5 seconds the engine oil pressure should be within operating pressure, else abort

* T-minus 2 seconds and the Remote Start Sequencer has polled all the systems for readiness for remote start

* T-minus 1 second and we are go for remote start

* T-0 REMOTE START! And the engine has come to life.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 12-15-2009).]

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Okay I spent way more time thinking about this than I should, but here is what NASA would do for maximum safety in a manual car with remote start…

...no good...they forgot the check what gear the transmission was in...didn't check the outside temp to see if a remote start was necessary...ensure the HVAC control was located in it's proper location to either warm or cool the car's interior and if the defrost selection is needed and selected...and - well never mind

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: ...no good...they forgot the check what gear the transmission was in...didn't check the outside temp to see if a remote start was necessary...ensure the HVAC control was located in it's proper location to either warm or cool the car's interior and if the defrost selection is needed and selected...and - well never mind

oh man... the transmission check omission somehow slipped through all the design reviews.

Nice thing about my truck it doesn't matter what position the a/c is left in, after the remote start, the truck looks at the outdoor and indoor temperatures and decides for itself whether or not to turn on the heater or the a/c. In cold enough weather it will turn on the seat heaters.

i did just find this remote start. first one in my search :P http://www.sjgreatdeals.com/scy2000rs2wm.html

it has some pretty neat features. i would like to have one that does this and is GSM. gotta keep searching.....

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Thanks a lot Pyrthian...I can't stop thinking about my robotic clutch pedal... I found some high speed actuators that would stroke my clutch in about 2 seconds. http://www.firgelliauto.com...2_69&products_id=159 My clutch has about a 5 inch stroke but I'm sure after 4 inches it would be disengaged. I need a fish scale to see how much force is needed, but I would guess less than 35 pounds. Still a couple of seconds is not too long to wait for the remote start to kick in.

I wonder, if a rotary actuator might be better? Take a sprocket similar to one from a bike, with a chunk of bike-chain attatched to the back of pedal... Would be easier to wedge into the space perhaps, and shouldn't create any resistance for when you opperate the pedals manually (Which, keep in mind, you're still going to have to do. And, I'd imagine a linear actuator might get in the way) And, it will be much easier to get the power you'd need.

I'm thinking about putting a remote starter in my '86 5-spd Duke... now, the plus side of having that particular combination is, even if it's in-gear when I push the remote start, the engine doesn't have enough torque to make the car take off. It will just die :P

The engine does, but when cranking, none of that engine power is being used. It's all in the starter. And that starter motor has more than enough power to move the car. But it will only move in short spurts. That's why when you see ancar start in gear it just lunges and doesn't keep moving.

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First LX9 Fiero GT, 1987 | My Fiero Fuel Economy | MPG Display for OBD I
Youtube Videos of My GT | modernize your fiero with technology!
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem
Fiero's are people too. We pay just as much attention to them, if not more than our loved ones
screw paying those bastards. im not going to become rich by paying for things.....

quote Originally posted by americasfuture2k: The engine does, but when cranking, none of that engine power is being used. It's all in the starter. And that starter motor has more than enough power to move the car. But it will only move in short spurts. That's why when you see ancar start in gear it just lunges and doesn't keep moving.

So... the starter has more torque than my duke? O.o That's... kind of pathetic...

If I start my car, then just let go of the clutch without easing off, it dies instantly. It's got 120K on her, and I know I need to rebuild it, but that's not normal?

For what it is worth, I have been using a remote start designed for manual transmissions, made by Ultra Starters, for about five years....it was trouble free until the remote died about a month ago and I could not get a replacement remote (the model I owned had been discontinued). After lots of flailing about, I discovered they had a newer version and I found a distributer in NJ who sold me a whole new system with two remotes over the phone (via PayPal) for $55 <!>

You must play a bit of arming kabuki: put car in neutral, set emergency brake while engine is running, then tap the brakes twice. Then remove the keys (engine will continue to run), exit the vehicle and close the doors within 30 seconds. The engine will shut down and the system will be armed for remote start. Quite a few features including start periodically then shut down (for you folks where it gets REALLY cold!) Remote locks. Additional output for trunk, etc.

Good long range, too. Highly recommended.

Take a look at ultrastarters.com. Model number #U1271M. Owners manual and installation manual available on line.

Oh, and I live in New York....alarm dealers here tell you it is illegal to install remote starts on vehicles with manual transmissions......but they do not hesitate to install THIS system!

Regards,
Larry

I personally think there all a bad idea. Even at 0* temps, my cars all warm up pretty fast by driving them instead of sitting and idleing. Even my big block old New Yorker (I dont even know if its got a thermostat at all) is putting out heat in a few miles. Ive been driving it during the cold snap here thats been in single numbers and teens for weeks and I totally HATE being cold. People are really getting lazy, lol.

I wonder how many people set a timer to turn on their TV before they get home so its already playing for them when they walk in the door ? Set your coffee maker to make it before you wake up....?

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 01-17-2010).]

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: I personally think there all a bad idea. Even at 0* temps, my cars all warm up pretty fast by driving them instead of sitting and idleing. Even my big block old New Yorker (I dont even know if its got a thermostat at all) is putting out heat in a few miles. Ive been driving it during the cold snap here thats been in single numbers and teens for weeks and I totally HATE being cold. People are really getting lazy, lol. I wonder how many people set a timer to turn on their TV before they get home so its already playing for them when they walk in the door ? Set your coffee maker to make it before you wake up....?

Problem is, around here it regularly gets below -40F in the winter... And, the transmission and engine oil turn to sludge at that temp, synthetic or not. It takes a good 5 mins to be able to move, and 10 to have a car that won't give you frostbite if you turn on the heater :P

Notably however: I've never been unable to start my Fiero, since I switched to Royal Purple oil...