I've seen that same kit advertised on EBAY by the same seller several times for 800 but he also has a stage one kit for around 485 that is good for up to 25 psi... I believe that would be plenty for a stock 2.8... I was looking at it myself! I hope someone on here can tell us if it's worth it or not...
There is allot of stuff there for the money. The T3/T4 turbo is nice and will make enough boost to blow the engine into tiny bits.
Just realize this isn't a bolt on kit. There is a ton of welding required to make it fit the Fiero. The turbo mounting flange, the wastegate, and the downpipe all need to be grafted into the stock exhaust. You will need to figure out the mounting location and then make the connection to the throttle body from the compressor outlet and then weld on the blow off valve.
It's not clear whether the fuel pressure regulator is a simple adjustable one or the more complex boost referenced rising rate FPR.
Then there is the matter of tuning the ECM. You need to pull timing as you add boost and the stock ECM is not setup to handle it. Not sure what the ECM will do if it sees pressure on the stock 1 bar MAP sensor. And no knock sensor anywhere.
It looks like a decent starting point assuming the parts are not cheap chinese knockoffs. I've tried those fleabay chinese parts enough to know better now.
That ebay turbo kit is trash, and no, the undersized turbo from a 2.0 will NOT work well on a 2.8L....
Those eBay turbo kits are junk as they are 100% Chinese and missing the most critical parts, the crossover and down pipe. If you have an engine with less than 50K miles on it, you can bolt on a turbo, tune carefully and get about 200HP but the only economical approach would be a DIY setup.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
There is allot of stuff there for the money. The T3/T4 turbo is nice and will make enough boost to blow the engine into tiny bits.
Just realize this isn't a bolt on kit. There is a ton of welding required to make it fit the Fiero. The turbo mounting flange, the wastegate, and the downpipe all need to be grafted into the stock exhaust. You will need to figure out the mounting location and then make the connection to the throttle body from the compressor outlet and then weld on the blow off valve.
It's not clear whether the fuel pressure regulator is a simple adjustable one or the more complex boost referenced rising rate FPR.
Then there is the matter of tuning the ECM. You need to pull timing as you add boost and the stock ECM is not setup to handle it. Not sure what the ECM will do if it sees pressure on the stock 1 bar MAP sensor. And no knock sensor anywhere.
It looks like a decent starting point assuming the parts are not cheap chinese knockoffs. I've tried those fleabay chinese parts enough to know better now.
The stock ECM won't do anything above 1 atm. It will keep injecting the same amount of fuel. The greater the boost, the more lean it will go.
In my opinion, playing with the fuel pressure is not a good tuning method. Besides the lack of precision, the injectors will operate best at their design pressure. The flow/pressure relation is not linear, and the injectors will be stuck open beyond a certain point.
Stock fuel pressure, a 2 atm (or more) MAP sensor, high flow injectors, and proper tuning is the way to go.
To the OP:
That is the most generic collection of turbo-related parts ever. That is not a Fiero turbo kit. You're probably better off picking and choosing what parts you need, buying them separately. There is going to be stuff you won't (shouldn't) use, such as the fuel pressure regulator.
Whatever you do, do some research. The more you read, the better.
[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 11-09-2009).]
IP: Logged
06:35 PM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15146 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
The stock ECM won't do anything above 1 atm. It will keep injecting the same amount of fuel. The greater the boost, the more lean it will go.
In my opinion, playing with the fuel pressure is not a good tuning method. Besides the lack of precision, the injectors will operate best at their design pressure. The flow/pressure relation is not linear, and the injectors will be stuck open beyond a certain point.
Stock fuel pressure, a 2 atm (or more) MAP sensor, high flow injectors, and proper tuning is the way to go.
To the OP:
That is the most generic collection of turbo-related parts ever. That is not a Fiero turbo kit. You're probably better off picking and choosing what parts you need, buying them separately. There is going to be stuff you won't (shouldn't) use, such as the fuel pressure regulator.
Whatever you do, do some research. The more you read, the better.
The stock 85-88 Fiero V6 ECM can be reprogrammed to accept inputs from a two bar MAP sensor. Its a matter of rescaling the timing tables by a factor of two and adjusting the PE. . Additionally the 85 V6 ECM can be programmed to work with a knock sensor. I agree with everything else that you have said.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Stock 2.8? Get a T3 from a ford thunderbird from the 80's there area ton of them in the junkyards. Get the turbo, a rebuild kit and go to town.
Now if you have an 85, you can get the knock sensor from a buick in the 80's and it's knock box. that will give you knock retard and save the engine, you dont need it, but if you want to keep your engine from destroying it's self, you need to get it. gotta install a 2bar map sensor as well plus ECM reprogram. any other year, it can be tuned but you have NO knock protection so it will drink gas, run rich and you need to run premium all the time to avoid knock.
Instead put in a real ECM, do a swap to a 7730 ECM add in knock and have darth burn you a chip after you get the turbo piped in. a T3 running 6psi will give you a major kick in the pants compared to stock and will not require a intercooler.
Honestly, get books on turbocharging and actually learn about it before you buy anything.
Cheapest way to a turbo fiero that will be reliable. If you are good at welding you can get the turbo installed in a weekend. DO NOT RUN IT WITHOUT A ECM TUNE unless you want to blow up the car. normal not modified or reprogrammed ECM+ turbo = very lean condition that will destroy the engine. There are a lot of people that do that dumb move every day.. your engine does not even get cranked over until you have your new ecm prom chip installed in the ECM, just dont do it.
also do NOT use a boost controller on the 2.8 in stock form, stick to 6psi and leave it alone. you will be faster than the hondas and never have a problem. cranking up the boost = blown engine unless you built it for more boost by using a ECM with more capabilities and was tuned for it, have the fuel pressure and injectors for it. Many a dummie has cranked up the boost in a street race and over boosted past their fuel capacity or ecm and blew up the engine. unless you rebuild it to cast pistons, your stock pistons will not take 12 psi, dont even think about it.
Just some tips for you from what I have seen first hand.
Stock 2.8? Get a T3 from a ford thunderbird from the 80's there area ton of them in the junkyards. Get the turbo, a rebuild kit and go to town.
Now if you have an 85, you can get the knock sensor from a buick in the 80's and it's knock box. that will give you knock retard and save the engine, you dont need it, but if you want to keep your engine from destroying it's self, you need to get it. gotta install a 2bar map sensor as well plus ECM reprogram. any other year, it can be tuned but you have NO knock protection so it will drink gas, run rich and you need to run premium all the time to avoid knock.
Instead put in a real ECM, do a swap to a 7730 ECM add in knock and have darth burn you a chip after you get the turbo piped in. a T3 running 6psi will give you a major kick in the pants compared to stock and will not require a intercooler.
Honestly, get books on turbocharging and actually learn about it before you buy anything.
Cheapest way to a turbo fiero that will be reliable. If you are good at welding you can get the turbo installed in a weekend. DO NOT RUN IT WITHOUT A ECM TUNE unless you want to blow up the car. normal not modified or reprogrammed ECM+ turbo = very lean condition that will destroy the engine. There are a lot of people that do that dumb move every day.. your engine does not even get cranked over until you have your new ecm prom chip installed in the ECM, just dont do it.
also do NOT use a boost controller on the 2.8 in stock form, stick to 6psi and leave it alone. you will be faster than the hondas and never have a problem. cranking up the boost = blown engine unless you built it for more boost by using a ECM with more capabilities and was tuned for it, have the fuel pressure and injectors for it. Many a dummie has cranked up the boost in a street race and over boosted past their fuel capacity or ecm and blew up the engine. unless you rebuild it to cast pistons, your stock pistons will not take 12 psi, dont even think about it.
Just some tips for you from what I have seen first hand.
Yes, you gotta have the fuel to back up all that extra air being pushed in or esle it will go lean and burn a hole in your piston. So, Timgray, Do you think my swap, 3.4 with a T3/T4, and smallish intercooler, and a good tune with the 7730 computer with the turbo 3.1 code mask, can handle 10 PSI? I am running the stock pistons (can't afford forged) (did not mean to hi-jack.) Also, I most likely will need a AFPR for my injectors, since I upgraded to 36 lbs/hr ones, correct?
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 11-10-2009).]
It may handle 10 psi, you want your tune to go way on the rich side at the higher boost pressures to make sure. The stock pistons in the 2.8, 3.1 and 3.4 cant handle detonation, do everything you can to avoid it and you will possibly be fine up to 10psi.
You still need the chip tuned for it to be reliable. the 3.1 codemask really will not do much for you unless you want to tune it yourself, I personally would start with what a tuner would send me as a baseline and tune from there.
You will not need an adjustable fuel pressure regulator if the tune is right, not at 10 psi.
[This message has been edited by timgray (edited 11-10-2009).]
It may handle 10 psi, you want your tune to go way on the rich side at the higher boost pressures to make sure. The stock pistons in the 2.8, 3.1 and 3.4 cant handle detonation, do everything you can to avoid it and you will possibly be fine up to 10psi.
You still need the chip tuned for it to be reliable. the 3.1 codemask really will not do much for you unless you want to tune it yourself, I personally would start with what a tuner would send me as a baseline and tune from there.
You will not need an adjustable fuel pressure regulator if the tune is right, not at 10 psi.
I'm guessing this is with 92 octane fuel, right? What about 110 octane?
I'm guessing this is with 92 octane fuel, right? What about 110 octane?
No matter what the octane you need the ECM tuned correctly. In fact 110 octane will probably run very poorly unless you advance the timing in the ECM program to take advantage of it. Adding large amounts of octane without tuning differently will actually reduce performance. Plus you cant get around the weak parts of the engine.
Will it eliminate knock? yup. you can run 110 octane and get ZERO knock with a standard tuning on a normal car that may be running at a very low boost. problem is you will get almost no performance gains from your turbocharging as it will be trying to get past the fact that the fuel is not fully burned by the time the piston is starting an upwards stroke further reducing the horsepower. AND you will still run lean and get high cylinder temps causing burn up on your valves and possibly crack pistons and even the head. Dumping racing fuel in a car not set up for using racing fuel simply makes the car run bad.
110 octane fuel burns very slowly compared to 92 typically you need high compression to take advantage of that high of an octane rating to get a good burn from it.
just some basic info on gasoline.... Other factors to influence it such as altitude,timing, carbon and rough edges and over all design of the combustion chamber. A rough rule of thumb is that 87 octane is approximately good till 9:1 and 92 is good till 9.5.. 108 is good for 12.1 Compression. I would run 108-110 octane if I was running 30 pounds of boost as that will create close to what a 12.1 compression engine produces in the cyl. but at that boost the head gaskets will blow out just from the boost pressure and the crank would be broken. That's if the rings did not fail from the high pressures. And that is a off the cuff guess, all of that takes testing and tuning. 10 psi boost will be fine under 98 octane, problem is octane cant make an engine or non boost capable pistons stronger. Nothing can fix a weak piston other than replacing it. So if you are running an engine that is strong enough for boost, then you dont need the higher octane stuff. If the engine is not built for boost, you have to run low boost, or risk blowing it up.
Stay low boost, you will be happier there if you dont like pulling the engine a lot. If your engine is a 70,000 mile tired example, 3psi may be too much for it.
Adding octane is not a fix beyond a little increase to get rid of detonation in a proper set up. and that is assuming you have intake temperatures under control. Octane can not be used to fix something that is horribly out of whack.
[This message has been edited by timgray (edited 11-11-2009).]
I understand all the variables in the turbo game, but I have a nearly Brand new engine here. Bored and honed, crank journals polished, heads totally rebuilt, new cam, etc. IF you can find a source for oversize 3.4 forged pistons, let me know. Can't find any, other then custom made ones. The pistons are really the only weak link in this engine. So with a good tune, low A/F ratio (like 12-13?), and an intercooler, i should be Ok with 10 PSI. If i got forged pistons, I'm sure I could go to maybe 15 PSI.
I understand all the variables in the turbo game, but I have a nearly Brand new engine here. Bored and honed, crank journals polished, heads totally rebuilt, new cam, etc. IF you can find a source for oversize 3.4 forged pistons, let me know. Can't find any, other then custom made ones. The pistons are really the only weak link in this engine. So with a good tune, low A/F ratio (like 12-13?), and an intercooler, i should be Ok with 10 PSI. If i got forged pistons, I'm sure I could go to maybe 15 PSI.
Difficult to fit an intercooler on a Fiero, but above 10 psi you definitely want one.
7-8 psi is fine on stock pistons, but 10-12 really wants forged and if you are getting some made up, may as well specify compression ratio - I use 8.5 to mate with 12 psi of boost.
Forget about high octane helping (except to reduce ping) unless you advance the base timing, and if you do that and later reduce octane, the thing will be going crazy trying to eliminate ping every time you get into boost. These ECMs don't 'hunt forward' to see how much advance they can use, they just limit total advance (or sometimes cut fuel) if they hear heavy ping.
With a ne stock compression engine you can slap a custom made kit on it (if Kevin Leslie at Design One is still doing Fieros) and drive away with the 200 BHP, but to get more (275+) equires a lot of custom work, a knock sensor and forged pistons.
I will say that it can be done reliably, though. My 88 turbo just turned over 212,000 km, much of it in boosted state.
Forget about running more than 14-15 lbs. on these engines with stock period ECMs.
PS - my 09 Pontiac is currently running 25 psi of boost and a bit over 300 BHP out of 2 litres..... ;-)
Water-air intercooler is your best choice. unless you will be in boost for hours on end. You have a far larger heat load and you can easily put the radiator up front for max cooling. If you will be street only you can get away with a smaller one as you will be in boost for only seconds at a time.
It's what I am going to go with, far easier to install, and I can pipe it to the front without effort.
Old Fiero habits and beliefs die hard. Best choice depends ultimately on a review of your goals and your complete system. Some will say water to air is the only way, others air to air the best way and a few but increasingly more vendicated will suggest alcohol injection and they are the least well received of the bunch here.
I currently run a front mount air to air intercooler in my Fiero but will be switching back to rear mount with water/meth injection and possibly water/meth injection only. Was it worth it? I'm undecided because rocker panel modification is required for better fit of the tubing and I'm not sure I want to notch the rocker panel for better enclosure of the pipes in the skirt molding. Air temps at the throttlebody dropped more than 100 deg which suggets ~10% performance improvement plus room for more boost. That's documented fact which is important because there's little of it to go around when it's needed most when discussing subjects like this.
Here are some things to consider regarding what's best for your "program".
The efficiency of your engine and turbo. This is important simply because the "old" rule born in the olden days with the old technology of the time says that 10 psi and up requires or justifies an intercooler with no mention of efficiency evaluation.
I say weigh the benefit first on paper: non-intercooled efficiency / intercooled efficiency. In simple terms, will the intercooler with its added weight, plumbing, and restriction to airflow at the boost level you intend to run, still produce a net performance increase greater than what you had without it. The intercooler comes with a price on efficiency, and if it drops your boost setting by 1-2 psi forcing you to restrict the exhaust system further by increasing the boost via the wastegate setting to see your intended boost level at the throttlebody, how does that compare to the non intercooled setup with added heat and no restriction, exta plumbing or added weight. Heat imparted to the intake charge is a function of turbo compressor efficiency and the boost level you are running. Most will immediately say air temps are going to be over 200 deg as soon as you say turbocharger, without taking into consideration anything else.
Now that an increasing number of production vehicles are leaving the factory fitted with turbochargers, there is a lot more experimenting with water/meth going on and from the latest that I've read, the individuals that ignore its benefit under boost or curse it altogether for whatever reason will be silenced or remain in denial. There is a new trend of dual nozzle application with pre turbo placement of injection in addition to pre throttlebody injection. When done properly (proper nozzle placement and pressure for small micron mist) there is no damage to the compressor blades.
It is apparently so effective under boost that some turbo engine owners are removing their intercoolers (including racers with ice bath air to water) and using it exclusively because it works that well.
So you may want to consider that as an option. Rather than summarize my impression of it and intent to use it, read a little in the links below and look at the graphs and form your own oppinion as to whether or not it's an option for your plan. You can also look for further info if it interests you. Whether you use straight water or a mix there is a benefit to be had. Put it on paper and do the math, that will net you the best path to take.
That looks like a good one except for the pump. Using a livewell bait pump?? I'd get an automotive grade water pump for reliability as well as installing a water temp gauge and sensor as well. You have a larger thermal mass in a water/air intercooler because of the water, plus a pump that can cause a mechanical issue, plus you have another cooling system to babysit. but the benefits are great for short/medium boost sessions. For a street car it works great, many cars that came with turbo in a stock configuration have had water/air intercoolers because they are a lot easier to plumb than running big air pipes all over. Bugatti and the Ford GT use them. The sprays work as well but what do you do if you run out of spray? on the track that wont happen, you refill every run. On the street? most of the time you'll be empty when you want to use it. I don't want to remember to have to refill my spray reservoir every time I go out for a ride.
On the race track I'd go with both. They are effective as all get out, the spray works great. If you dont mind refilling something all the time, g owith a spray and call it done, it does work very well. I prefer to not have to remember to refill something.
Intercoolers will cause a pressure drop. Water injection will displace volume.
Either way, it's less mass of air getting into the cylinders. You, the tuner, do the math and figure what's best for your application.
The refilling isn't a big deal. I read the mass of water/alcohol injected is typically in the range of 10% of the fuel injected while boosting. If you have a gallon of water/alcohol solution, you're set for well over a tank of gas.
