But I'm interested in getting down to brass tacks... The difference in compression between using MY99 Northstar pistons with valve reliefs and MY00 Northstar pistons with true flat tops, for instance.
Port dimensions (including volume) to understand what the optimal intake valve size should be would be good as well.
But I'm interested in getting down to brass tacks... The difference in compression between using MY99 Northstar pistons with valve reliefs and MY00 Northstar pistons with true flat tops, for instance.
Port dimensions (including volume) to understand what the optimal intake valve size should be would be good as well.
There are computer programs to get into that depth, but they cost a LOT of money... The ideal way to port heads, of course, is to map out the port with a CMM; export the 3D model of the port into a CFD program; have a pro dial in the port model and the CFD model to produce best results, then export the new port model to CAM software and have a 5 axis CNC mill cut the new port shape into the head.
But I'm interested in getting down to brass tacks... The difference in compression between using MY99 Northstar pistons with valve reliefs and MY00 Northstar pistons with true flat tops, for instance.
Port dimensions (including volume) to understand what the optimal intake valve size should be would be good as well.
At this point, you're better giving up on the Caddy and getting a Chevy V8, either the traditional SBC with heads from AFR or Dart, or an LSX of some sort. Between these and the Caddys, the LSX has the strongest blocks and cranks to start with, and are the only choice that can offer 450 HP with nothing fancier than CAI, cam and headers.
At this point, you're better giving up on the Caddy and getting a Chevy V8, either the traditional SBC with heads from AFR or Dart, or an LSX of some sort. Between these and the Caddys, the LSX has the strongest blocks and cranks to start with, and are the only choice that can offer 450 HP with nothing fancier than CAI, cam and headers.
You are missing the point... you may as well have suggested a 3800SC swap or an Ecotech swap. Will is a N*/Caddy guy.
[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 08-24-2009).]
It seems kind of dumb anyway for someone to tell someone else that in the middle of a swap, or even after the fact, that they should go with something different. What's the point? Is that advice they think is actually going to be heeded? Or are they just trying to diss someone else's choices?
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01:30 PM
Fieroseverywhere Member
Posts: 4242 From: Gresham, Oregon USA Registered: Mar 2006
I think I recall Jon@fieroaddiction doing some work on the combustion chamber. Mostly some enlarging followed by getting the heads cc'd. Might be of some help if you can reach him.
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02:14 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
I think I recall Jon@fieroaddiction doing some work on the combustion chamber. Mostly some enlarging followed by getting the heads cc'd. Might be of some help if you can reach him.
*IF* I decide that a 4.9 is worth playing with for anything at all, then I want to keep chamber volume to a minimum... basically just unshroud the valves (GFN has another DV article on *exactly* how to do that). The engine needs all the compression it can get to get the most out of those atrocious heads.
That's a big *IF* also, because the effort that will yield 300 HP from a 4.9 will yield 500+ from a VVT Northstar.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 08-24-2009).]
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02:30 PM
PFF
System Bot
stickpony Member
Posts: 1187 From: Pompano Beach, FL Registered: Jan 2008
*IF* I decide that a 4.9 is worth playing with for anything at all, then I want to keep chamber volume to a minimum... basically just unshroud the valves (GFN has another DV article on *exactly* how to do that). The engine needs all the compression it can get to get the most out of those atrocious heads.
That's a big *IF* also, because the effort that will yield 300 HP from a 4.9 will yield 500+ from a VVT Northstar.
at what cost though? a BIG portion of rick stewart's build cost came from chrome plating his allante inatke and valve covers. it's not as expensive as everyone thinks it is to build up the 4.9L
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07:59 PM
stickpony Member
Posts: 1187 From: Pompano Beach, FL Registered: Jan 2008
Other way around. MY00's make full rated power on 87 octane, thanks to chamber redesign and slight drop in compression. MY99's require 91 octane.
you sure about that? the octane rating could have to do with computer tuning... i was always under the impression that the flat-tops had 0.2 higher compression because they didnt have the valve reliefs.
*IF* I decide that a 4.9 is worth playing with for anything at all, then I want to keep chamber volume to a minimum... basically just unshroud the valves (GFN has another DV article on *exactly* how to do that). The engine needs all the compression it can get to get the most out of those atrocious heads.
That's a big *IF* also, because the effort that will yield 300 HP from a 4.9 will yield 500+ from a VVT Northstar.
Understood. My point was since he had done that kind of thing Jon may have some of the info you are looking for. If he CC'd the modified combustion chamber then he may well have a baseline that he started from. The only reason I see to lower compression is for boosted applications (which might be fun with similar mods to what Rich Stewart did and the addition of headers).
[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 08-25-2009).]
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11:26 AM
KurtAKX Member
Posts: 4008 From: West Bloomfield, MI Registered: Feb 2002
This may have seemed like I was trying to diss, but I'm into practicality, and return on investment, not petty stuff like dissing. Why spend all that money for bragging rights that really only matter to the 3 or 4 other people who really care about the 4.9. No matter what you do to a Cad 4.9, you could get better results cheaper and easier from a 4.8L LSX. It's also cheaper and easier than the N*. Fieros aren't worth megabuck engine builds, and the best bang for the buck is not and cannot be a cad engine. It seems like the goal here is efficiency, making good use of optimized heads, and for that, the LSX beats either Caddy V8. You may as well get an old Ford flathead V8 from the 1930s as play with the 4.9, it's really not significantly better.
You're still missing the point... why did KurtAKX set up a flow bench to test porting Duke heads... I bet its not for bragging rights. It's fine that you wouldn't do a Caddy swap of any kind, I am not going to either...
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10:20 PM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
I know people that do just exactly that (the flathead, that is. they even run one at Bonneville)
You don't like the idea. Fine. You say you're not into dissing other ideas but I disagree. That's EXACTLY what you just did. How many Fiero engine swaps and how many different types of motors have YOU PERSONALLY put in. Any from scratch, no kits used? I have. I've done 3.4, 4.9, Northstar, SBC. Now I'm doing an LS. To be honest, I like the 4.9 the best and it's the best bang for the buck in a daily driver (IN MY OPINION). If Will does this and finds a way to pick up an extra 30-40 hp without spending tons of money, good for him because it will make the 4.9 even MORE attractive. As it is in stock form, the 4.9 will give you about a 35% hp increase (and a LOT more torque) than a well sorted out 3.4 pushrod motor, and that's nothing to sneeze at.
You say the cars aren't worth megabuck engine builds. You should qualify that. They're not worth it to YOU. Fine. Don't do them. Others enjoy getting their hands dirty and solving problems by doing things differently. Just sit back and take their knowledge so you can do it easier. That's not a slam, that's how most people do it. Thank God not everyone does.
It's a hobby. Some people like to do things just because they can, or because they want to learn, or because it's simply there. No other reason and because you don't like it or think it "impractical" means absolutely nothing.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by Isolde:
This may have seemed like I was trying to diss, but I'm into practicality, and return on investment, not petty stuff like dissing. Why spend all that money for bragging rights that really only matter to the 3 or 4 other people who really care about the 4.9. No matter what you do to a Cad 4.9, you could get better results cheaper and easier from a 4.8L LSX. It's also cheaper and easier than the N*. Fieros aren't worth megabuck engine builds, and the best bang for the buck is not and cannot be a cad engine. It seems like the goal here is efficiency, making good use of optimized heads, and for that, the LSX beats either Caddy V8. You may as well get an old Ford flathead V8 from the 1930s as play with the 4.9, it's really not significantly better.
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11:17 PM
scrabblegod Member
Posts: 1014 From: Lexington, KY Registered: Jun 2003
This may have seemed like I was trying to diss, but I'm into practicality, and return on investment, not petty stuff like dissing. Why spend all that money for bragging rights that really only matter to the 3 or 4 other people who really care about the 4.9. No matter what you do to a Cad 4.9, you could get better results cheaper and easier from a 4.8L LSX. It's also cheaper and easier than the N*. Fieros aren't worth megabuck engine builds, and the best bang for the buck is not and cannot be a cad engine. It seems like the goal here is efficiency, making good use of optimized heads, and for that, the LSX beats either Caddy V8. You may as well get an old Ford flathead V8 from the 1930s as play with the 4.9, it's really not significantly better.
I am baffled by your statements. How do you define better, cheaper and easier results. My 4.9 Fiero was cheap and easy to build. Not including the car, I have about 1000.00 in the build. Wrecked caddy 200.00 Regrind cam 100.00 Head work 250.00 gaskets etc 100.00 Quad 4 converter 50.00 exhaust, mounts, rockcrawl chip, hoses, axle, wires etc... less than 300.00 swapped caddy remains for Lesabre trans with better gear ratio. I am not sure what a LSX swap cost, but I bet it can not even come close. I am sure the swap kit alone is once or twice that. So 4.9 cheaper cheaper= better I do not know what a LSX swap runs in the quarter, but my 4.9 on street tires runs 12.80's with a 1.80 60' time. I know there are faster motors, butagain, for what I spent, you are still saving just to buy the swap kit. Quicker cheaper swap = better. My converter has to much stall, and there is no tuning on the chip other than changing shift point, Passkey etc. It runs pig rich at full throttle ~ 11-1 afr. I think with some tuning and converter change (stalls higher than the torque peak), 12.5 is not that far out of reach. If I wanted it to go faster, I think i would go with a 3800sc. There is a reason they dominate the quarter mile charts and not the been there done that stick it in anything chevy V-8.
I am baffled by your statements. How do you define better, cheaper and easier results. My 4.9 Fiero was cheap and easy to build. Not including the car, I have about 1000.00 in the build. Wrecked caddy 200.00 Regrind cam 100.00 Head work 250.00 gaskets etc 100.00 Quad 4 converter 50.00 exhaust, mounts, rockcrawl chip, hoses, axle, wires etc... less than 300.00 swapped caddy remains for Lesabre trans with better gear ratio. I am not sure what a LSX swap cost, but I bet it can not even come close. I am sure the swap kit alone is once or twice that. So 4.9 cheaper cheaper= better I do not know what a LSX swap runs in the quarter, but my 4.9 on street tires runs 12.80's with a 1.80 60' time. I know there are faster motors, butagain, for what I spent, you are still saving just to buy the swap kit. Quicker cheaper swap = better. My converter has to much stall, and there is no tuning on the chip other than changing shift point, Passkey etc. It runs pig rich at full throttle ~ 11-1 afr. I think with some tuning and converter change (stalls higher than the torque peak), 12.5 is not that far out of reach. If I wanted it to go faster, I think i would go with a 3800sc. There is a reason they dominate the quarter mile charts and not the been there done that stick it in anything chevy V-8.
Gene
Hey Gene, what sized cam do you have in there, what "headwork" was done to the heads, and whats the gear ratio on that lasabre tranny? sorry for the 3-part question...
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07:33 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
This may have seemed like I was trying to diss, but I'm into practicality, and return on investment, not petty stuff like dissing. Why spend all that money for bragging rights that really only matter to the 3 or 4 other people who really care about the 4.9. No matter what you do to a Cad 4.9, you could get better results cheaper and easier from a 4.8L LSX. It's also cheaper and easier than the N*. Fieros aren't worth megabuck engine builds, and the best bang for the buck is not and cannot be a cad engine. It seems like the goal here is efficiency, making good use of optimized heads, and for that, the LSX beats either Caddy V8. You may as well get an old Ford flathead V8 from the 1930s as play with the 4.9, it's really not significantly better.
Better results in terms of power and performance, yes, but cheaper? Doubt it. The 5.3's are cheaper than the 4.8's anyway. LSx = adapter plate, which adds cost/effort. I can also think of apps for which an aluminum block V8 is preferrable to an iron block V8 without regard to power.
I'm just curious about the engine... that's all. It looks like no one has done the due diligence on these engines anyway...
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 08-26-2009).]
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01:15 PM
Aug 27th, 2009
Isolde Member
Posts: 2504 From: North Logan, Utah, USA Registered: May 2008
I am baffled by your statements. How do you define better, cheaper and easier results. My 4.9 Fiero was cheap and easy to build. Not including the car, I have about 1000.00 in the build. Wrecked caddy 200.00 Regrind cam 100.00 Head work 250.00 gaskets etc 100.00 Quad 4 converter 50.00 exhaust, mounts, rockcrawl chip, hoses, axle, wires etc... less than 300.00 swapped caddy remains for Lesabre trans with better gear ratio. I am not sure what a LSX swap cost, but I bet it can not even come close. I am sure the swap kit alone is once or twice that. So 4.9 cheaper cheaper= better I do not know what a LSX swap runs in the quarter, but my 4.9 on street tires runs 12.80's with a 1.80 60' time. I know there are faster motors, butagain, for what I spent, you are still saving just to buy the swap kit. Quicker cheaper swap = better. My converter has to much stall, and there is no tuning on the chip other than changing shift point, Passkey etc. It runs pig rich at full throttle ~ 11-1 afr. I think with some tuning and converter change (stalls higher than the torque peak), 12.5 is not that far out of reach. If I wanted it to go faster, I think i would go with a 3800sc. There is a reason they dominate the quarter mile charts and not the been there done that stick it in anything chevy V-8.
Gene
I got my second 5.3 for $75 complete, on Pick-N-Pull's half price day. My adapter plate was $19 for an 18" x 18" piece of 1/4" steel, and I already had the drill bit. My used LS6 cam ran me $50, and the LS1 intake was free. Having my local machine shop modify the 2.8 flywheel to bolt to the 5.3 was a total of $70. And who's dumb enough to pay $250 for porting? That's way too much $$. And even after all that, they don't equal the stock 5.3 heads. I got a water pump from a wrecked RV for $20, and mounted it up front by the Fiero radiator. The GM LS1 swap manual has enough info to build your own wiring harness, and getting the VATS de-programmed was $50. All that's left is mounting the starter, and doing an exhaust system. I got a pair of '00 Z28 exhaust manifolds for $50, and they fit very well. My swap is no more costly than yours.
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04:03 PM
Isolde Member
Posts: 2504 From: North Logan, Utah, USA Registered: May 2008
oh, further, black coffee's LS4/4T65E-HD Fiero ran 12.6s, so I'm surely ahead of that. As for the L67, it dominates because it's done by people who do things right, while SBCs are done by cheap-out artists. Name me the top 3 L67-into-Fiero swappers, and I'll name you the same 3 people as being people capable, if they could get their heart into it, of making an SBC fiero even quicker.
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04:06 PM
scrabblegod Member
Posts: 1014 From: Lexington, KY Registered: Jun 2003
And who's dumb enough to pay $250 for porting? That's way too much $$.
New springs, retainers, cutting spring seats, milling .050, valve job etc 250.00 is not a bad price. Of course I would expect a Chevy V-8 fan boy to be dumb enough to think it is.
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09:58 PM
scrabblegod Member
Posts: 1014 From: Lexington, KY Registered: Jun 2003
Settle down, folks. Forget these pissing matches. In the overwhelming majority of cases, the prize for the cheapest build is a ride back from the strip on a roll-back.
I'm just interested in detailed information on 4.9 heads. If you ask me why, I'll ask you why not. If you ask me why not a 5.3, I'll ask you why a 5.3.
I just want the info. The ego is irrelevant.
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04:39 AM
Isolde Member
Posts: 2504 From: North Logan, Utah, USA Registered: May 2008
New springs, retainers, cutting spring seats, milling .050, valve job etc 250.00 is not a bad price. Of course I would expect a Chevy V-8 fan boy to be dumb enough to think it is.
Pissing contests are for kids. What I post now, I'm posting as fact, for the info of everyone. I've been a professional automotive machinist for nearly 10 years now. I've spent thousands of hours on a new SuperFlow 1020 flow bench, with every option, including swirl meter and wet flow capabilities. I've spent thousands more on the Serdi, and tens of thousands more hand-porting. I can do for $10 per port what anyone else charges $500 for. I usually give my friends the price of $5 per port. As for my skill, The first ever Vortec 350 I did, after my very first pass at it, surpassed Joe Mondello's best effort. That's my best example, but I have other results that prove I'm as much of a natural as he or Tony Mamo or Jud Massengill, or any other you can name. If you want great porting, PM me.
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03:59 PM
Isolde Member
Posts: 2504 From: North Logan, Utah, USA Registered: May 2008
This may have seemed like I was trying to diss, but I'm into practicality, and return on investment, not petty stuff like dissing. Why spend all that money for bragging rights that really only matter to the 3 or 4 other people who really care about the 4.9. No matter what you do to a Cad 4.9, you could get better results cheaper and easier from a 4.8L LSX. It's also cheaper and easier than the N*. Fieros aren't worth megabuck engine builds, and the best bang for the buck is not and cannot be a cad engine. It seems like the goal here is efficiency, making good use of optimized heads, and for that, the LSX beats either Caddy V8. You may as well get an old Ford flathead V8 from the 1930s as play with the 4.9, it's really not significantly better.
WTH? What's you're function here? You're not being helpful, you've made it abundantly clear you don't like the 4.9 swap, so what is it exactly you want? Do you really think you're telling any of us anything we don't already know, that a 4.9 will never be as fast as a SBC or LSx. Wow. Way to state the obvious. Maybe we don't CARE. I'm getting into my 4.9 swap. No adapters, no convoluted water pump configurations, no dealing with certain vendors. Glad you like your LS swap. Why not go find an LS thread and quit acting as if those of us who like our 4.9 are somehow inferior.
quote
Originally posted by Isolde:
By the way, Dumb? Not me. I have a genius level IQ.
Usually, intelligent people don't have to tell others how smart they are.
[This message has been edited by Taijiguy (edited 08-28-2009).]
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04:07 PM
PFF
System Bot
Isolde Member
Posts: 2504 From: North Logan, Utah, USA Registered: May 2008
Is that the impression you get? Respect the efforts of your elders who are trying to give you, for free, the benefit of their experience and learning and WISDOM! also, high IQ and justifiably big ego aren't mutually exclusive. If the OP asks me to stop participating, then I'll go. Taji, why raise hell with me now after I helped you with your realistic approach to your 4.9?
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06:30 PM
KurtAKX Member
Posts: 4008 From: West Bloomfield, MI Registered: Feb 2002
Pissing contests are for kids. What I post now, I'm posting as fact, for the info of everyone. I've been a professional automotive machinist for nearly 10 years now. I've spent thousands of hours on a new SuperFlow 1020 flow bench, with every option, including swirl meter and wet flow capabilities. I've spent thousands more on the Serdi, and tens of thousands more hand-porting. I can do for $10 per port what anyone else charges $500 for. I usually give my friends the price of $5 per port. As for my skill, The first ever Vortec 350 I did, after my very first pass at it, surpassed Joe Mondello's best effort. That's my best example, but I have other results that prove I'm as much of a natural as he or Tony Mamo or Jud Massengill, or any other you can name. If you want great porting, PM me.
What can you do with a 84-86 '767 casting Iron Duke head? (Dry flow, .500" inlet radius, 28" H2O depression)
Is that the impression you get? Respect the efforts of your elders who are trying to give you, for free, the benefit of their experience and learning and WISDOM! also, high IQ and justifiably big ego aren't mutually exclusive. If the OP asks me to stop participating, then I'll go. Taji, why raise hell with me now after I helped you with your realistic approach to your 4.9?
I'm just confused by what you're trying to accomplish. Whether or not you intend it, you're coming off as rather elitist, and a bit disrespectful of those of us who are doing this swap. I realize we had previous discussions about my swap, but you're coming off with a different attitude in this thread. Given that you seem to presenting a specific attitude towards this swap in general, then I suppose I'm raising hell with you as I'm included in the demographic your attacking here. If I'm mistaken, then please tell me how, but from what I've seen in here that appears to be the case.
