I got my 4.9 back from the exhaust shop today...

I was wondering though does anyone know what the stock rev limiter is set at? what John at fieroaddiction sets his at? and where the power curve takes its dive on a stock block with the delta cam? I for some reason remember reading that it was supposed to be limited to like 6k but it seems mine is kicking in around 5. Doubt if it makes a difference but still would like to know.

Also my speedometer is not working at all, it does not test the gage on startup. What in the process of wiring it for a 4.9 could have caused this? All the fuses are good and it used to work.

When running a single 02 sensor does it matter which bank its on, does it have to be in a y pipe? I ask because I have a dual in dual out muffler on it and the guys at the shop said they would put a balance tube with an 02 bung on the system if I really needed it to be after the exhaust mixes. Right now its on the rear bank. Speaking of 02 sensors I put in a heated 02 sensor and read somewhere someone said that you have to install a servo to run it or something anyone know why this is? Or what they were talking about I have not been able to find details.

Dizz post us a few pics of your swap, and of the exhaust set up you had made.
Joe

I will. I will. Maybe I should finally post my build thread. I never was able to get the pic host thing to work which is kind of annoying. For the moment though it is a dual in dual out flowmaster (i think, thats at least what he was mocking it up with, may have changed I like it though so I didnt really bother to check the brand on the finished set up) , its practically a race can really free flowing there is gas exchange simillar to a X pipe crossover in the can itself. I like the sound it is muffled so its not as overpowering but it is probably a little loud for most people especially at WOT.

I promise I will get a thread going with pics and everything this weekend.

If you need help posting pics just send them to me, I'll put them up for you.
Joe

quote Originally posted by Dizzixx: I will. I will. Maybe I should finally post my build thread. I never was able to get the pic host thing to work which is kind of annoying. I promise I will get a thread going with pics and everything this weekend.

Cliff has a web based pic loader at http://www.myfiero.com/imagehost.php

This is NOT one of those remote linking sites like photobucket...it actually uploads the imaged to the PFF server just like PIP but without the hassle.

I should be able to help you with the speedometer, but I'm going to need to know how it's hooked up now to know where to go from here.

The VSS signal goes into the ECM. VSS HI ECM B9, VSS LOW ECM B10, then ECM B11 goes to C203 G to drive the speedo. I show both C203 M and R being grounded M is VSSB ground and R is VSS low input to speedo. The thing is the speedo doesnt come on with the other gages so it would seem that this is more than just a signal from the VSS issue.

I have a Pdf that I made that lays out my wiring diagrams, the one I have on the computer though is what I did before actually doing the wiring. The one I used while wiring has notes and alterations but the majority of it is the same. Would that help?

Anyone know about the stock rev limiter/fieroaddiction chips limiter? Or about the O2 setup and how much it matters.

quote Originally posted by Dizzixx: I was wondering though does anyone know what the stock rev limiter is set at? what John at fieroaddiction sets his at? and where the power curve takes its dive on a stock block with the delta cam? I for some reason remember reading that it was supposed to be limited to like 6k but it seems mine is kicking in around 5. Doubt if it makes a difference but still would like to know.

IIRC stock = 5200 rpm, Fiero Addiction = nothing, he usually disables it, but can set it to what you want.

quote Originally posted by Dizzixx: Also my speedometer is not working at all, it does not test the gage on startup. What in the process of wiring it for a 4.9 could have caused this? All the fuses are good and it used to work.

If it does not zero at key on, you have another issue - maybe plug on the back not seated correctly.

quote Originally posted by Dizzixx: When running a single 02 sensor does it matter which bank its on, does it have to be in a y pipe? I ask because I have a dual in dual out muffler on it and the guys at the shop said they would put a balance tube with an 02 bung on the system if I really needed it to be after the exhaust mixes. Right now its on the rear bank. Speaking of 02 sensors I put in a heated 02 sensor and read somewhere someone said that you have to install a servo to run it or something anyone know why this is? Or what they were talking about I have not been able to find details.

No, it does not matter which bank, but you should balance the inputs.
You don't need a servo, the O2 sensor should be on a switch 12v system - key off, O2 sensor off (so you are not running down your battery when not in use).. Ideally you may want to use a relay. You need a heated sensor if you mount the sensor more than 16 inches from the manifold.

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 06-10-2009).]

More about the exhaust. I went and took pictures today. Its a maganaflow. Which after doing some research, explains the free flowing insides (no baffles) and I am happy with. I will post pictures in the other thread when I post that.

On the rev limiter. I am fairly certain then that I have the limiter engaging at the stock 5200, thats okay I asked him to leave the rev limiter stock (there is a place on the order form) does anyone have the power curves for a stock motor with a delta cam? would raising the rev limit gain me anything? I left it stock because I didnt want to grenade anything on accident and given how happy it is to rev into the sky I wouldnt put it past me.

On the speedo The cap and two resisters are completely new to me. I will put those in but I very much doubt It will change anything. I too thought the connector was loose messed with it a bunch of times didnt change anything. Then I thought maybe the speedo was loose, I thought it connected to like the tach does with metal studs and spring tension clamp things (not sure the right words) but it isnt the connector is actually part of the speedo itself. Guess its possible I fried the speedo board or something.

Okay so I have a heated sensor, not sure if its on a switched +12v, should be but I will have to check, that might explain my battery drain issue, I was actually thinking just that today. What do you mean by balance the inputs?

Stock rod bolts might be okay with 6000 rpm at the top of first gear, but probably not with staying up there for more than a couple of seconds at most. Also, what is the seat pressure of your valve springs? This is a good indicator of what rpm you will have valve float at. Third, are your heads ported? If not, no point going anywhere near 6000 rpm. If you are running the 220 at .050", .498" cam that's a copy of the E303, it can get an AFR-headed 5.0 to make power past 6000, but even ported 4.9 heads will never come close to any AFR heads.

I dont know the seat pressure. Engine internals are a new thing to me I am stil learning all this stuff. My heads are not ported, I intend to do that in the future along with an allente intake but money is short. I was also going to replace the rocker arm bridge (at least I think thats what its called) with a steel one, I understand that the Al ones have problems with high revs and have a tendancy to break.

So is running it to the limiter in its current configuration considered abusive? Dont get me wrong I drive my cars like I stole them but I dont want to cause uber pre mature engine failer. If it is a difference of 300k mile life vs 150k mile life I would rather drive the crap out of it for those 150k miles and then get a new motor.

With the 4.9 with the Delta cam there is no point in reving past 4800 rpm - according to the Gtech and my motor (polish/port/shaved/rebuilt/Delta/bored throttle body/etc) the power starts to drop off at 4200. It is about 200 rpm higer than stock. This is according to the Gtech (not on a dyno) - so take it how you wish. I didn't post my results as I have no ideal just how accurate a Gtech is.

I don't care what anyone says, the Delta cam, etc, etc is NOT worth the time and money - I always hear that it is better, but NO ONE has ever had done a before and after dyno test to prove it, just because it says so in theory does not always make it so. I did not have much gains at the 1/4 mile track either. The ONLY way to improve the 4.9 is with forced air induction - PERIOD...

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 06-11-2009).]

There's no reason to be peaking at 4200. The heads aren't that bad, and neither is the allante intake. Stock exhaust manifolds might be, But with headers you should be zinging 5500 in every gear, pulling from 5000 to 5500 just as fast as from 3000 to 3500. You need to be running at least a 2.5" exhaust system. A mandrel-bent 2.5" pipe will support just over 270 hp without any restriction. But most 2.5" mufflers are not that good. The Hooker Maximum Flows are. And Even with the Allante intake, ported heads, delta cam, and headers, Dizzixx won't be over 270 horses. After all, Dizzix lives at 4200' elev, which means a loss of 17% compared to sea level, due to the thinner air, and with it, less oxygen.

For the record, I am running 2.5" mandrel bent pipe and I have ported and cleaned up the stock manifolds as much as I could. Not headers, as no one makes headers for the 4.9 and I am too cheap to fork over the $1500 (plus the blank plates) it would have costed me for the shop to fab me up a set.

edit: I am running the 'stock' intake - no Allante one for me, as I said NO ONE has produced before and after dyno runs to prove that there is an actual gain (Allante intakes are rare around my neck of the woods and refuse to pay the kind of money they want for them (over $1000). That money would be better spent on a turbo. My heads/intake were done by a speed shop and flow tested (in fact there is no much more they can do to the intake without make it unusable).

quote Originally posted by Dizzixx: I was also going to replace the rocker arm bridge (at least I think thats what its called) with a steel one, I understand that the Al ones have problems with high revs and have a tendancy to break.

Been there, done that - mine went out about about 5200 rpm (and this was on the stock motor, before the head/intake/exhaust work). The steel ones are holding just fine.

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 06-11-2009).]

I got steel bridges from the Allante Source for $20 each. Alternator bracket was 25, and the lower intake was 150 with fuel rail and harness.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: I got steel bridges from the Allante Source for $20 each. Alternator bracket was 25, and the lower intake was 150 with fuel rail and harness.

Those are decent prices - my problem is where I live. If they won't ship to me, I get hosed on shipping costs. But I will have to check them out - I am so far into my motor, what is a couple hundred more ($1000 more, then that is a different story - I will just finish up my 327 and use that for that kind of money and have more potential).

Mickey, what is the emissions / registration situation up there north of the border? Please PM me so we don't get this thread off topic.

When the bridge goes does it have the potential to do damage? It shouldn't right because this is not an interference engine? If they are only 20$ which I am surprised by I will have to do that in the near future.

My exhaust is 2.5 mandrel bent as well with a free flowing muffler. I actually would have liked to do headers but like he said they really arnt worth the money.

I will have to drive it longer, I was interested in doing a turbo, N* pistons lowering comp and doing a full port and polish with some strengthened internals everything blueprinted and balanced, but I think the money might be better spent on a longitudinal swap of some sort.

There's half a dozen guys putting fox mustangs into the 9s with a single T76 in a stock truck 5.3L LSx, namely the LM7, running around 15 psi with the cast pistons. This, to me, makes far more sense than playing with a N*, and would be far less $, as well. Plus if you do frag something, the LM7 is far easier to repair, parts are far cheaper and easier to get, and the basic engine design, as well as all the parts are far stronger. This is why I bought an LM7 for my Fiero. You can find a few of these guys on www.ls1tech.com in the engine swapping section.

quote Originally posted by Dizzixx: When the bridge goes does it have the potential to do damage? It shouldn't right because this is not an interference engine? If they are only 20$ which I am surprised by I will have to do that in the near future.

What happend to mine was the bolts that hold the rocker support (the U shaped bracket that goes over the rocker arm) pulled out of the bridge (stripped), broke the support and the arm fell off. As a result the valve would stay close so there would be no way of the piston to actually come in contact with the valve. Symptom was a sudden loss to power and back firing.

This happend about 3 years ago about 3 weeks after the swap was completed - before any motor modifications (ie: stock motor).


Installed the steel bridge (both sides) and used new bolts - you can't reuse the old ones as they are self tapping and will not hold properly in a hole that has been pre-tapped.

quote Originally posted by Isolde: Mickey, what is the emissions / registration situation up there north of the border? Please PM me so we don't get this thread off topic.

sent

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 06-12-2009).]

How many miles where on the motor that you installed before the bridge broke?

Advise for 4.X caddy owners:
Never remove a bridge broken or not without first removing the entire assemble. The bridge should only be removed with the bridge in a vise and remember they only get torqued to 20ftlbs.

Those bridge pieces are pretty fragile. I broke one on my 4.5 just a couple of weeks ago. They are cheap and still available from GM for about $11 each. Make sure to note which cylinder as it makes a difference.

BTW - You can TimeSert the rack to correct the self tapping bolt threads. But I think racks are pretty cheap and available.

You bet your boots those bridges are fragile. Appear to be "pot metal" which is not noted for strength. I broke a couple taking them off a parts car without first removing the entire assembly.

Looks like GM should have made them from stronger stuff.

Just what is their purpose anyway ?

To the person that said they are $20. Are they $20 for a full set or $20 each?

$20 each. I should be getting them sometime this week along with the lower intake.

quote Originally posted by Rocky Top: Just what is their purpose anyway ?

You gotta have them with the stock rockers. They keep the rockers from wobbling around. So they keep a striaght line.

Not the most impressive design I have seen by far and I can see where these would break if you over-rev the engine often. I can tell you that hearing a V8 in a little Fiero begs to rev as much as possible and I know I'll have to update these rockers myself sometime soon. Still running the stock cam, but would love to just get some roller rockers up there. It'd make me feel better. I know fieroaddiction.com has a decent write up on roller rockers.

Roller rockers for the 4.9?

quote Originally posted by Dizzixx: Roller rockers for the 4.9?

http://www.fieroaddiction.com/caddy49h.html

Never - EVER - take the bridge apart. Remove it as a complete piece - why you NEED to take it apart is beyond me. IF you do take it apart, you can NOT reuse the bolts that are holding the rocker support to the bridge. These are self tapping bolts and are not meant to be reused. You have to use a standard bolt as a replacement.

New bridges (aluminum ones) do not have these holes tapped (hence the need for the self tapping bolts, again if you remove them from the new bridge you can not use them in it). The steel bridges come tapped (use regular bolts).

...if you take the bridge apart and reuse the self tapping bolts and it breaks... - I TOLD YOU SO.

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: http://www.fieroaddiction.com/caddy49h.html

How do you space the valve covers and still have it seal? Do you have to make your own nifty spacer or something? He says it had to be spaced 1/4'' because the rollers were hitting the valve covers.

Stacking gaskets is a huge gamble. Having a shop make you some from any metal won't be cheap. Using a material other than metal brings more issues. The best approach for the average guy is to get a spare pair of valve covers, have one set cut apart about an inch up from the gaskets, have the other set cut apart about 3/4" up from the gaskets, then weld the parts together to end up with 1/4" taller valve covers. Welding the outside won't be pretty, but welding the inside could create interference issues, so grinding would be necessary. This is the most reliable solution, and if done well, might be difficult to see.

quote Originally posted by Isolde: Stacking gaskets is a huge gamble. Having a shop make you some from any metal won't be cheap. Using a material other than metal brings more issues. The best approach for the average guy is to get a spare pair of valve covers, have one set cut apart about an inch up from the gaskets, have the other set cut apart about 3/4" up from the gaskets, then weld the parts together to end up with 1/4" taller valve covers. Welding the outside won't be pretty, but welding the inside could create interference issues, so grinding would be necessary. This is the most reliable solution, and if done well, might be difficult to see.

The valve covers on the 4.9's are made of magnesium. I am pretty sure you can't weld it.

quote Originally posted by Isolde: Welding the outside won't be pretty, but welding the inside

NOOOOOO! DO NOT EVEN TRY TO WELD THEM!!!

Magnesium is flamable. Once lit almost nothing can put it out. It is used for underwater welding. Not something you want to light up unless its just for fun.

As for the spacers the only real way to do it is to make (or have made) something. If it were me I would have them made from copper.


EDIT: For video links.
http://video.google.com/vid...e=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iv#
Seriously... Dont weld them. Notice what happens when you try to use water to put out the flame also.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 06-18-2009).]

Yeah thats why they like to use magnesium to start thermite reactions

I didn't think of what they might be made of, I assume steel or aluminum. Someone better double check.

quote Originally posted by Isolde: I didn't think of what they might be made of, I assume steel or aluminum. Someone better double check.

No question about it. They are magnesium. Also, for a reference, so is the 4.9 oil filter housing. Both are a real PITA to paint because of it.

Yeah they dont resonate like steel or aluminum. If someone hadnt said anything I would have assumed they were some kind of composite. I guess maybe Al but I dont think I would have thought them steel.

What are the advantages of roller rockers? Anyone know other neat tricks to get more power out of the 4.9 that arnt the constantly discussed, port and polish, new intake, etc etc.

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: No question about it. They are magnesium. Also, for a reference, so is the 4.9 oil filter housing. Both are a real PITA to paint because of it.

Ok, whats the trick to painting them? I have a set of fronts at the machine shop, getting a bead blast done. I'm gonna paint them asap after I geet them back.

MAGNESIUM AND ITS ALLOYS
1. Vapor degrease with stabilized Trichlorethylene.
2. Immerse in 10% Sodium Hydroxide for 10 minutes at 76-870oC.
3. Rinse 5 minutes in a cold water spray.
4. Immerse in a solution of 1 1/2 lbs. Chromic Acid, 1/4 lb. Sodium Nitrate in 1 gallon of water for 8 minutes at room temperature.
5. Rinse approximately 3 minutes.
6. Immerse in a 20% solution of Hydrofluoric Acid for 5 minutes at room temperature.
7. Rinse 1/2 - 1 minute.
9. Rinse 1-2 minutes.
10. Dry in hot air blast (71-98 degrees C) for 10 minutes.
11. Bond immediately or apply a Zinc primer for protection of freshly etched surfaces.

from -- http://www.paintcenter.org/rj/mar06k.cfm

hopefully there is an easier way. A bunch of people have done valve covers at least, hopefully they will have input.