Alright, got my Fiero (86 2M6) got my engine (3800SC out of a 98 Bonne SSEI) got my trans (4t65e-HD)

Before I started I planned on putting in a HMS Slalom front suspension, I still want to, but it will be awhile, after the motor swap is done.

I am leaving my fiero together for now, and I purchased an 88 cradle to put the engine together on, when it's ready I'll drop the old cradle/engine/etc.. and put the new one in. That's the plan anyway...







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[This message has been edited by jaybeezi (edited 04-08-2009).]

Where did you find the "adapter kit" for the 88 cradle into the pre 88 cars ? I used to see them, but not for a long time. Or are you fabbing your own ?

I've got a checklist of parts I believe I'll need to get.

Motor
Trans
PCM
Wiring Harness
Axles
Motor Mounts
EP376 Fuel Pump
EVAP System
Catalytic conv.
A/C Lines (from an 88 correct?)
Coolant Lines
Exhaust
Shifter cable brackets
Trans Cooler

88 Cradle
88 Knuckles
88 Control/trailing arms
88 Brakes
Rear coilover setup
88 Engine Cradle Adaptors (do I need these?)

[This message has been edited by jaybeezi (edited 02-06-2010).]

Are you good with working metal? Have a hand held grinder, drill and or drill press, welder, cardboard, engine hoist, degree finder, and maybe a couple other tools? if so make your own mounts. I've been told mine are strong as hell. I'll get you pictures if you like. The hardest part was using a hand drill with a large hole saw.

If you are even the least bit adept at doing some light metal working, the home made mounts are usually much better than anything you can buy. The wiring harness is also something an amateur can do easily.

quote Originally posted by jaybeezi: Held Motorsports http://www.westshorefabrica...neCradleAdapters.htm Fiero Addiction http://www.fieroaddiction.c...20_21&products_id=52 I'm either going to purchase them from there, or make my own. I'd like to try and make some pillowball mounts work on a fiero These seem like they might work.

Honestly to use pillow balls to adjust rear caster, isn't going to do much for a Fiero. But to set it up to adjust camber may be useful, if you can get good range out of it. But using a 88 cradle means your strut mounting point must be move further inward, making your range even more limited. And once you have a nice camber dialed in, adjustment becomes a moot point.

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1986GT 4-speed DOHC and 1987GT Auto

quote Originally posted by DIY_Stu: Are you good with working metal? Have a hand held grinder, drill and or drill press, welder, cardboard, engine hoist, degree finder, and maybe a couple other tools? if so make your own mounts. I've been told mine are strong as hell. I'll get you pictures if you like. The hardest part was using a hand drill with a large hole saw.

Yes! please, any pics and intsructions would be awesome. I'd rather make as much myself as possible, got everything except the drill press but I can get that if I need to. I only have a cheap harbor freight mig welder right now, but I can just tack everything together and find a welder to finish it if it wont penetrate enough.

I am a DIY kinda guy, but I seem to know just enough to get myself into trouble, oh well, it's never stopped me from trying.

What I'm really unsure about is lining up the engine/trans, where exactly to put it, front/back, side/side, height...

DH: I'd also rather do the wiring harness myself, I've seen you promote just cutting and working on what you need, not taking the entire harness apart. Your way sounds much easier, I would also like a clean as possible install, but taking the harness completely apart seems like it might be over my head. (both ways do honestly)

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[This message has been edited by jaybeezi (edited 04-09-2009).]

Honestly, just simply from a dynamics analysis, the deflection that the dampers normally see would hardly be anything to worry about affecting performance, since the lash seen would have a seriously small effect on response and geometry. There are many worse things one should worry about on a Fiero.

I want to tighten up the suspension completely, I want to get the HMS spherical mount control/trailing arm set, convert to coilovers with my 88 cradle, and get some HHP swaybars front and rear, with the slalom front suspension...

This is all just what I would like to do, not necessarily going to do (I am doing the rear coilovers and the 88 cradle) just want to figure out what I can do to the suspension to completely reduce deflection and let the springs/struts/swaybars do all the work. If I did all of that, at that point wouldn't non-spherical/poly bushing strut mounts become a weak point (flexible point)?

[This message has been edited by jaybeezi (edited 04-09-2009).]

Yes, but the forces exerted by a dampener are much smaller than that of the spring, and the springs mounting point shouldn't be deflecting enough to be noticeable without precision instruments or there is a serious problem. The polyurethane exhibits a elastic (and small viscous) deflection that is most likely much higher that that of the shock under normal driving, so the strut rod would deflect before the urethane shows a significant amount of deflection. Even then the spring should still be securely fastened to the strut body (given a well assembled coilover setup) and if you use Held's coilover setup, I believe he secures the spring straight to his steel hats, allowing minimal deflection. But if that is your desire more power to you, your fore aft deflection should be pretty much eliminated then. Personally I would want to introduce more anti-squat in the Fiero rear suspension, since it has a tendency to squat a lot, especially with the anti-dive of 88 fronts (and held slalom). This would help not only control in mid turn acceleration, but decrease the stress on the transmission if weight transfer to the rear was lessened.

Also, the held slalom uses urethane bushing on it's A-arms just so you know, as well as the frame mounting points for the HHP sway-bars, correct? If you truly did mount everything with rod ends and spherical bearings I would imagine your NVH transmission to the cabin would be extremely high.
Please don't solid mount your drive train however, solid mounting results in shock loading that is detrimental to drive train wear and failure.

[This message has been edited by FieroWannaBe (edited 04-09-2009).]

He won't have to worry about solid mounting. The mounts I made used the 88 Trailing link bushings and 9/16" bolts. definitely won't break. My mounts are on the heavy side but I don't care because they won't break. They're also 2 piece mounts. No brackets for other brackets etc. I Basically I'll give you all the pics I can take. I have one piece left to weld on the front mount. then I'm taking them all of for a clean up and paint. I'll get you pics before that part.

Mounting tha 3800SC series II or mIII with the 4T65E tranny is not that hard. If your tranny has both monting points on the sides use the 92 to 96 Trans Sport or Lumina van tranny mount brackets with the factory Fiero rubber mount that bolts to the cradle. For an engine mount use the GP 3800 engine mount that wraps under the engine and weld a piece of 1/4" plate to the bottom of the bracket so it reaches out over the Fiero cradle mounting plate and use an older style chevy truck tranny mount to bolt the mount to the cradle.
Make up a nice strong dog bone from the factory 3800 alt bracket and you are done.
Average cost $40 for both thranny mount brackets, new Fiero tranny mounts if needed are around $20 each and the chevy truck mount piece is around $10. That is it for the mounts which are very strong and do not cause any vibration problems from the engine. Dan

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Signature compliments of F-I-E-R-O
2003 3800SC series II powered
www.photosled.com/showgallery.php/cat/631
www.photosled.com/showgallery/cat/1583

This swap can be CA smog legal right? Is there anyone here in CA that has a 3800SC swapped in?


and, no no I didn't plan on solid mounting the engine.

[This message has been edited by jaybeezi (edited 04-10-2009).]

For CA smog as I recollect from reading here requires engine (of course) with all smog devices in tact and the engine's computer and If the car the engine came from was auto then yours has to be auto.

FieroFlyer but mine are so pretty..... AKA overbuilt. 18 lbs worth of mounts..... :-P

And speaking of I'm going to take them to a machine shop tomorrow.... If they're open to see if they can reproduce a couple sets for me.

[This message has been edited by DIY_Stu (edited 04-10-2009).]

quote Originally posted by jaybeezi: This swap can be CA smog legal right? Is there anyone here in CA that has a 3800SC swapped in? and, no no I didn't plan on solid mounting the engine.

Yes it can be but has to be left bascially stock and be a clean install. I am working on a CA swap now that will be bone stock down to leaving the engine cover on. I will actually look cleaner installed then it did from the factory.

jaybeezi,
SOunds like you have hit the motherlode of help! Looks like I need to take Stephen's parts TO him so I can get a better idea of what I am in for. Nice to know that I have a LOT of local folks that have done these swaps before.
Good luck in your swap. I'll keep an eye on this thread.

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Why fight to be accepted by people you don't actually want to be like?

jaybeezi...

P.M. Sent

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Yes it can be but has to be left bascially stock and be a clean install. I am working on a CA swap now that will be bone stock down to leaving the engine cover on. I will actually look cleaner installed then it did from the factory.

I know the cat has to be a certain distance from the manifolds, 16" ? I am planning on using lildevil's setup, with the subaru cat that's 1 in 2 out with 2 mufflers (or does it have to be a certain cat?) and can I use any muffler, or should it be a factory type, quiet muffler?

I need to get a charcoal canister from a GTP at a wrecking yard for the EVAP system, but I was reading that the 98 OBDII ones needed a fuel pressure sensor hooked up to them.... ?

Also, does anyone know if I can port the stock exhaust manifolds, ceramic coat them, and or wrap them, and still be CA smog legal? Would they care about that?

Just finished building them and have a coat of paint on them. I have many photos taken in several stages of the builds. From the "commercially" made ones there's many features I just don't like. One guy here local bought a set and had problems with a bolt loosening on the most important mount causing a loud bang when the bolt would slide. It was just a matter of time before this bolt sheered leaving him stranded. I also noted that same mount would be prone to twisting against the cradle. The front mount on a purchased set did nothing more than keep the front of the motor from lifting or sliding, but did nothing to resist twist. The stock 2.8 front mount did resist twist and so do all other mounts I've seen on the front of other motors so I made sure mine would resist this twist as well. I'll get the pics off of the camera in the morning.

FCP got your voice mail took an extended nap and missed your call. I'm in Cleburne. I'll be mounting the engine to the cradle today Saturday.

And people wonder why I say vendor mounts suck.

Folks:

If it is going to be CARB certified easily, it will have to be a Series II and an automatic, so jaybeezi is set there. This is because the donor Series II never came with a manual transmission. . In any event, you need to get a copy of the Bureau of Automotive Repair's pamplet entitled, " Engine Change Guidelines" - call 800-952-5210.

I spent about 30 minutes talking to two ARB Referees yesterday about my alternatives, if my SPCN (SB 100) does not pass the final review in Sacramento. It is a series III .

Among other things the Referees noted is the importance of the stock Fiero routing of the exhaust, and the need to have the correct Cat and O2 sensor for the donor engine. All the the donor engines emission equipment must be retained and be working with no codes or MIL lights. If your car was originally a CA certifed car, then your new engine must be a a CA Certified engine when it was manufactured. There are many other issues outlined in the pamphlet. Put another way, using the donors exhaust, or all of the other non-WCF exhaust systems, will likely not be accepted unless it faithfully follows the stock Fiero routing. To my knowledge, only the WCF kit is CARB certified with an EO ( http://www.westcoastfiero.c...arb_conversions.html ) .There may be a few others who have done it on their own, but the WCF kit is the easiest and probably most certain way to get there.

Hope this helps!

Jaybeezi, hope you can make it to the WCF BBQ ( https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/074846.html) one of the CARB EO cars may be there. You can get a wealth of knowledge from those who will be attending.

Regards,

David

[This message has been edited by D2inDFW (edited 04-11-2009).]

I agree, I didnt wanna bother with vendor mounts either. The mounts we created work GREAT! I put about 1500 miles on the so far but engine devoloped a couple problems. So now its getting more upgrades! lol. But the new mounts are holding up great so far.

Folks:

I am always puzzled and amused by the intense focus on something as simple, basic, and uncomplicated as motor and transmission mounts. Engine swaps have much more interesting challenges than motor mounts, I think. IMHO of course!

Regards,

David

could always go with weld on angle iron mounts like the v8 guys

I know there are different smog programs depending on where in CA you live. Enhanced, Normal, and Change Of Ownership.

Are the engine swap rules any different if the car is registered in a Change Of Ownership county?

These are valid questions. It would certainly be worthwhile to attend the WCF Open House as there will be several owners with this swap as well as various other swaps that are smog legal. Also, Chris West and the rest in attendance are extremely fluent in smog legality issues with all of these swaps.

Jay:

The rules I posted above are THE CALIFORNIA RULES FOR ANY ENGINE SWAP. There are some places in CA where there are are no SMOG inspections, but Modesto is not one of them. This link adresses your last question: http://www.smogcheck.ca.gov...ct_to_smog_check.pdf

This link provides more info: http://www.dmv.org/ca-california/smog-check.php

Regards,

David

[This message has been edited by D2inDFW (edited 04-11-2009).]

Front Trans 4T65eHD 97 model


Rear Trans


Engine Front




Front mount is the most difficult to make but it also gets the least forces on it.

Oh and if Stacy David ever taught me anything it was that Rustoleum Hammered covers up a lot of UGLY.