i just took the fastback off my 87 gt and im in the process of media blasting the frame rails and the wheel wells and so on. im going to paint it all with some por-15. now the Question i have is do i need to keep that padding in the engine bay? is it just sound dampener or for fires or both?
i want to repaint the engine bay. is it worth replacing that stuff? or can i just pull it and paint ? any help would be great thanks

It's sound deadener & insulation. You can do without it, but you'll probably get a lot of heat in the cockpit. I'd remove it, then use aftermarket insulation on the firewall.
I wouldn't use por 15. If you're going to this much trouble do it right & shoot epoxy primer & (if you want it to look original) semi-flat black urethane (but I would use gloss black).
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

I agree. Keep it or replace it. Don't go without it.

------------------
Spent my days with a woman unkind Smoked my stuff and drank all my wine...

thanks guys. i will replace it then.any products any one can suggest? and don't use the por-15 for the engine bay? i don't care if it looks original i just want it to look good.
using the por-15 on the frame rails and wheel wells is still good to do right? as im almost ready to start painting now. just need to sand some spots

if you know how to weld i would cut out the rotted out spots and weld in new pieces of metal.
alittle more work but you already got it apart.

if your using por-15 don't sandblast it por-15 needs rust to convert and stick to. i blasted some control arms once and it all peeled off i later found out that is why they say to just wire wheel the stuff to get off the ruff scale.

quote Originally posted by Ants87gt: if your using por-15 don't sandblast it por-15 needs rust to convert and stick to. i blasted some control arms once and it all peeled off i later found out that is why they say to just wire wheel the stuff to get off the ruff scale.

yeah did you use por's metal ready before putting it on? i read that thats what that stuff is for. but yeah what you see in the pic is after i gave it a light blast. i have to get a friend over to weld the trunk holes for me. then i was going to apply some metal ready to it and brush on por-15. i hear its better to brush on then spray so i hear any ways lol. im no pro this is my first time getting into stuff like this but with a lot of research and friends and the help of this great wealth of knowledge (pennocks) and all of you im confident i can get the job done right. thanks

Por 15 is great for rust conversion. So if you have no way to blast something you can wire wheel it & use Por 15 - as a base *before* priming. Other than that, I wouldn't use it for anything else. It's not UV resistant, so it will not hold up to weather. I doubt it will look good for long in the engine compartment. I use PPG epoxy primer on everything, after blasting or sanding. To do it right; blast, metal prep, epoxy, paint. You don't have to sand the epoxy before painting.
I've been doing restorations for nearly 40 years...
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: Por 15 is great for rust conversion. So if you have no way to blast something you can wire wheel it & use Por 15 - as a base *before* priming. Other than that, I wouldn't use it for anything else. It's not UV resistant, so it will not hold up to weather. I doubt it will look good for long in the engine compartment. I use PPG epoxy primer on everything, after blasting or sanding. To do it right; blast, metal prep, epoxy, paint. You don't have to sand the epoxy before painting. I've been doing restorations for nearly 40 years... ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"

thanks driver thats what i will do then. i will just use the por15 on the wheel wells and the frame rails as no one will see them and they are prime rust areas. the engine bay has little rust that i can see that is. thanks so much for for your insight!

given the way you are going to do this brushing it is the way to go, from what i remember you need a special thinner from por-15 to be able to spray it. it really dosn't matter anyway the por-15 flows out pretty nice as it cures and will not look like you have brushed it when you are done. it does hold up real well a friend of mine that does a lot of old school hot rods loves the stuff it is very resistant to impact and once it bonds to something it stays put. i usually don't use it since i have everything that i do sandblasted like the driver and then epoxy prime and then paint. one thing to remember with epoxy is that you have to top coat within 24 hours of spraying the epoxy or you have to sand it to stick right. either way get it as clean as you can wipe it down with a wax and grease remover and it'll come out pretty good.

Ant

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: Por 15 is great for rust conversion. So if you have no way to blast something you can wire wheel it & use Por 15 - as a base *before* priming. Other than that, I wouldn't use it for anything else. It's not UV resistant, so it will not hold up to weather. I doubt it will look good for long in the engine compartment. I use PPG epoxy primer on everything, after blasting or sanding. To do it right; blast, metal prep, epoxy, paint. You don't have to sand the epoxy before painting. I've been doing restorations for nearly 40 years... ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"

On another thread sometime back I was corrected that por-15 is a rust preventative, not a convertor. Could somebody please clear this up?

It's a converter. Recomended to use over rust *only* (not on clean metal).
There are a lot of folks that think they know what they're talking about here that don't.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: It's a converter. Recomended to use over rust *only* (not on clean metal). There are a lot of folks that think they know what they're talking about here that don't. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"

No, it is NOT a rust converter. While it does bond very well to rusty parts, It does NOT convert the rust.
http://www.por15.com/faq.asp

As for painting POR-15 on sandblasted or clean metal you need to use the Metal-Ready Primer. This allows the POR-15 to chemically bond to the metal.

quote WHAT IS THE BEST SURFACE ON WHICH TO PAINT POR-15? POR-15 likes rusted surfaces best. Seasoned metal and sandblasted metal are also good. POR-15 does not adhere well to smooth, shiny surfaces, but will adhere well to those surfaces with the proper preparation. WHAT IS THE 'PROPER PREPARATION'? We make a product called 'Metal-Ready'. It's a rust remover that leaves a zinc phosphate coating on base metal, the perfect preprimer for POR-15. NOTE: New steel is coated with a protective oil finish at the mill. This finish must be removed before using POR-15 or Metal-Ready. Clean metal first with POR-15 Marine-Clean, then rinse with water and dry.

POR-15 will hold up to ALL weather. It will however dull out to a matte finish and eventually chip when exposed to direct sunlight for a period of time. The UV rays from the sun will degrade it. Just use the POR-15 chassis black top coat and you will not have to worry about it. Many items on my car have been painted with POR-15 and they have lasted a LONG time. There are many parts that I have painted with POR-15 nearly 10 years ago and they still look glossy. (they do not see direct sunlight) The parts that can see direct sunlight have been topcoated with Chassis black.

I have numerous suspension, cradle, brackets, engine compartment, inside/outside of the trunk and the front frame rails all coated with POR-15. Since the decklid stays open during car shows, The engine compartment was topcoated with chassis black.

To see how bad the UV issue was I painted a bracket and left it sit outside. In about a week it was a matte finish. It took nearly a year before it was degraded enough to start chipping. A topcoated piece has been fine for almost 12 years now. I painted a metal bracket and topcoated it for the dog run in the backyard. Wipe off the dirt and it is still shiny with no signs of degradation.

We had a boat trailer that after two season of fishing started to get rust bubbles and the dreaded rusty tint at the joints/seams. We sandblasted the boat trailer, primed it with Metal-Ready, then painted it with POR-15 and top coated the entire thing with "Marine White" topcoat. So far it's held up fo 6 fishing seasons without any problems.

If you want to know more about POR-15 or POR-20, Just ask those that have actually researched and used their products or research it for yourself.

For the firewall insulation see:
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...040223-1-029980.html

Here is a place that sells a pre-cut piece:
http://www.fierosails.com/heatshield.html


------------------

Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.
ZZ4 Powered !!

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 01-12-2009).]

when reading from http://www.fierosails.com/heatshield.html it talks about these


Note that the material on the two inner fender wells of the engine compartment is not addressed here and we do not offer patterns. This material is the same as that originally used on the firewall but is addressed in the Pontiac 22P parts manual as "sound absorber" material, not insulation.


thats what i want to remove not the back firewall. anyone take that off and leave it off? is it that loud with out it. i will replace it if need be. thanks every one!

Well 2 things, I removed the insulation from my car because sound inside is not an issue for me. Also, it is an extremely good place for rust to start if you have water running down between the decklid and rear window keeping it wet. POR is awesome stuff but you must use it correctly. The application to clean metal and rusty metal are different. It can be brushed right on over rust with pretty good sucess (POR=Paint Over Rust) but will fall right off clean metal if not properly prepped. My rear bumper on my jeep is coated with their chassis coat black and my from bumper was powder coated. The rear still looks flawless and the powdercoat has already failed.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: No, it is NOT a rust converter. While it does bond very well to rusty parts, It does NOT convert the rust.

Well they've changed their tune, then. When they first came out with it they claimed it "converted rust to primer".

quote Originally posted by Oreif: POR-15 will hold up to ALL weather. It will however dull out to a matte finish and eventually chip when exposed to direct sunlight for a period of time. The UV rays from the sun will degrade it. Just use the POR-15 chassis black top coat and you will not have to worry about it. Many items on my car have been painted with POR-15 and they have lasted a LONG time. There are many parts that I have painted (snip)

You just contradicted yourself. UV is a major part of "weather". Weather is not just rain.
Sooo.... It's a "coating that seals the rust"? Why the hell would you want to do that? If you're going to have to put a top coat over it, why wouldn't you want to prep it RIGHT, & then primer & topcoat (paint) it using the proper materials? OR; use an actual rust converter that will prevent the rust from comming back?
You can make parts (& a glossy or semi-gloss finish) last a long time just by cleaning it well & spray painting it with rustoleum. No need to spend the big bucks on por 15.
If you want to do it right, use PPG epoxy primer & paint it with single stage urethane, & you'l have a finish that will probably last ten times longer than por 15 & their "topcoat". And you can do that in just about any color.
Edit: PPG epoxy primer will probably seal the remaining rust as well as por 15. If you do use por 15, you can also sand it & epoxy prime over that. And BTW, I HAVE used por 15 for DECADES, since it first came out. Doubt I'll use it any more, though. If I'm doing something that I don't care enough about to blast off the rust, I'll use a real rust converter on it.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

[This message has been edited by Tha Driver (edited 01-12-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: You just contradicted yourself. UV is a major part of "weather". Weather is not just rain. Sooo.... It's a "coating that seals the rust"? Why the hell would you want to do that? If you're going to have to put a top coat over it, why wouldn't you want to prep it RIGHT, & then primer & topcoat (paint) it using the proper materials? OR; use an actual rust converter that will prevent the rust from comming back? You can make parts (& a glossy or semi-gloss finish) last a long time just by cleaning it well & spray painting it with rustoleum. No need to spend the big bucks on por 15. If you want to do it right, use PPG epoxy primer & paint it with single stage urethane, & you'l have a finish that will probably last ten times longer than por 15 & their "topcoat". And you can do that in just about any color. Edit: PPG epoxy primer will probably seal the remaining rust as well as por 15. If you do use por 15, you can also sand it & epoxy prime over that. And BTW, I HAVE used por 15 for DECADES, since it first came out. Doubt I'll use it any more, though. If I'm doing something that I don't care enough about to blast off the rust, I'll use a real rust converter on it. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"

UV rays are not "weather", It is electromagnetic radiation at a specific light wavelength caused by our Sun. "Weather" refers to rain, sleet, snow, wind, hot, cold, Humid, dry, etc. which are things changed by atmospheric conditions. BTW ~ UV rays attack all polymers. It's just many of today's polymers add in UV blockers to resist UV degradation. The problem is UV blockers can be reduced by weather over time. So even many of the epoxy primers, paints, and coatings will eventually degrade and fail.

Most "rust converters" only convert the top layer and do not prevent moisture from getting deeper. Moisture is the major thing that causes rust. Since the "converters" do not stop the moisture, The metal below what was converted can begin to rust.

I've been using POR-15's products since the mid 80's and have never had a problem. I still use it today.

As you can see from my previous post, I recommend cleaning and properly prepping the item to be coated.

The point isn't which method or product is better, The point is posting inaccurate information about a product doesn't help anyone.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 01-13-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Oreif: UV rays are not "weather", It is electromagnetic radiation at a specific light wavelength caused by our Sun. "Weather" refers to rain, sleet, snow, wind, hot, cold, Humid, dry, etc. which are things changed by atmospheric conditions. BTW ~ UV rays attack all polymers. It's just many of today's polymers add in UV blockers to resist UV degradation. The problem is UV blockers can be reduced by weather over time. So even many of the epoxy primers, paints, and coatings will eventually degrade and fail. Most "rust converters" only convert the top layer and do not prevent moisture from getting deeper. Moisture is the major thing that causes rust. Since the "converters" do not stop the moisture, The metal below what was converted can begin to rust. I've been using POR-15's products since the mid 80's and have never had a problem. I still use it today. As you can see from my previous post, I recommend cleaning and properly prepping the item to be coated. The point isn't which method or product is better, The point is posting inaccurate information about a product doesn't help anyone.

Funny, I always thought "sunny" was weather too....
I recomend blasting ALL of the rust away & not using por 15 at all, It's the RIGHT way to do it. Por 15 is for people that don't have the right equipment to have a stop-gap measure to help preserve their shtuff.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

I stripped all the unnecessary brackets and all the insulation out of my engine bay in preparation for the DOHC install. We painted the entire engine bay with POR 15 black and the break lines and fuel filler lines with POR 15 Silver.



We used the foilbacked insulation for the firewall and used aluminum foil tape to seal the insulation. I used the same method on my 88 Formula/GT 5 years ago anf the engine bay still looks great.

Joe Sokol

------------------
85 SE Daily driver with a 3.4 DOHC build underway
88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby)

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: Funny, I always thought "sunny" was weather too....

"Sunny" is a weather term for no clouds. (clouds, cloudy, etc. IS a form of "weather".) The sun is always there and emitting UV rays. Weather can decrease the amount of UV rays that hit the earths surface (like clouds), But UV rays are not "weather". By your logic "dark" is weather as well.

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: I recomend blasting ALL of the rust away & not using por 15 at all, It's the RIGHT way to do it. Por 15 is for people that don't have the right equipment to have a stop-gap measure to help preserve their shtuff. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"

Whatever.

Don't you think it would be better just to explain your method and/or products instead of bashing other folks about the products/methods they use?

Telling folks who have used different products or methods that they "don't know what they are talking about" and "don't have the right equipment" is pretty ignorant. (Especially when you post inaccurate info about the product your bashing!!) Is there some reason you always need to toss in your "digs" to make your point?

As I have said many times before, Let them do their own research and make their own decisions. There is a wealth of information out there with many automobile magazines, automobile restoration shops, and hot rod builder shops that have decades of experience testing and using many products. Research what they use and why, then go from there.


http://www.classiccarauto.c...o/POR15_review.shtml
http://www.offroaders.com/r...duct.php?product=299
http://www.stoprust.net/view_reviews.php
http://www.jeepfan.com/reviews/review_por15.htm
http://forums.hemmings.com/...1870&highlight=por15
http://www.hotrod.com/howto..._rust_war/index.html

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 01-14-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Whatever. Don't you think it would be better just to explain your method and/or products instead of bashing other folks about the products/methods they use? Telling folks who have used different products or methods that they "don't know what they are talking about" and "don't have the right equipment" is pretty ignorant. (Especially when you post inaccurate info about the product your bashing!!) Is there some reason you always need to toss in your "digs" to make your point?

Look, I can't help it if a manufacturer chooses to change the description of their product years after they come out with it, when it's a product that I've used on several occasions & am quite familiar with it - starting from the time it first came out. I can't go to every website & check every product to see if they've decided to change their description. In fact, when this product was first made there was no such thing as a "website" to check on it.
What I'm giving is accurate information. The FACT is that it WILL NOT hold up to UV, whether you call that "weather" or not. It should not be used as a finish product & there is no need to use it AT ALL if you blast ALL of the rust off.
It IS for folks that don't have the ability to blast off the rust.
I've been diong restorations/customs/autobody/frame repair for over 40 years. I rebuilt my first total (which turned out to be my first car) in 1967. I know a little about it.
Edit: Por 15 is good shtuff. But if you use it, you should epoxy prime over it & finish with a good durable paint. The fact that they make "topcoats" for it proves my point. I've seen far too many people that think it's the be-all end-all for rust repair. It's not. I read one case where a guy actually sand blasted his entire pickup frame, then let it sit out & rust so that he could use por 15 to paint it. Stupid.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

[This message has been edited by Tha Driver (edited 01-14-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: Look, I can't help it if a manufacturer chooses to change the description of their product years after they come out with it, when it's a product that I've used on several occasions & am quite familiar with it - starting from the time it first came out. I can't go to every website & check every product to see if they've decided to change their description. In fact, when this product was first made there was no such thing as a "website" to check on it.

The description has been the same ever since I have been using it and that was back in the mid 80's.

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: What I'm giving is accurate information. The FACT is that it WILL NOT hold up to UV, whether you call that "weather" or not. It should not be used as a finish product

The UV degradation and that it is not a "finish" product was not the inaccurate part.
These statements are inaccurate:

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: Por 15 is great for rust conversion It's a converter. it will not hold up to weather.

Again I encourage those who are looking at these products to do your own research.
http://www.por15.com/faq.asp

quote Originally posted by Oreif: The description has been the same ever since I have been using it and that was back in the mid 80's.

Sheesh. Like I said, when they FISRST came out with it they claimed it "CONVERTED RUST TO PRIMER". I don't recall exactly when that was, but it was sometime within the past 40 years....
They USED to claim it was a rust converter. It will NOT hold up to "weather". I can't help it if you don't consider sunshine (& therefore UV) "weather". You NEED to put SOMETHING over it to hold up to UV (weather). When ANYTHING degrades due to UV, it's "weathering".
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

EDIT:
Weather:
The state of the atmosphere with respect to heat or cold, wetness or dryness, calm or storm, clearness or cloudiness
Weathering:
The action of the weather conditions in altering the color, texture, composition, or form of exposed object

[This message has been edited by Tha Driver (edited 01-14-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: You NEED to put SOMETHING over it to hold up to UV

You do know that the PPG Epoxy primer you use has the same problem with UV degradation right?
Per PPG's Automotive Restoration website:
The DP and DPLF PPG epoxy primers require a topcoat for proper UV protection.

So since BOTH products require a topcoat for proper UV protection and BOTH products can use any paint as a topcoat, What's the difference if someone chooses to use POR-15 or the PPG DP/DPLF primer as a base for their engine compartment and frame???

Research is your friend.

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: Weather: The state of the atmosphere with respect to heat or cold, wetness or dryness, calm or storm, clearness or cloudiness

UV is not a "state of the atmosphere".
Clearness would be a "lack of weather" or as noted below a lack of weather activity.

Weather is a set of all the phenomena occurring in a given atmosphere at a given time. Weather phenomena lie in the hydrosphere and troposphere. Weather refers to current activity, as opposed to the term climate, which refers to the average atmospheric conditions over longer periods of time. Weather occurs due to density (temperature and moisture) differences between one place to another.

Ultraviolet (UV) light is electromagnetic radiation with a wavelength shorter than that of visible light, but longer than x-rays, in the range 400 nm to 10 nm, and energies from 3 eV to 124 eV. UV light is found in sunlight. As an ionizing radiation it can cause chemical reactions, (like degradation of polymers such as POR-15 or PPG's Epoxy primers) and causes many substances to glow or fluoresce.

While atmosphereic activity (weather) may filter and reduce the UV radiation from reaching the earth's surface, UV rays are not weather.

By your logic, the weather forcast should be:
Tonight's weather is dark, Followed by widely scattered light in the morning. ~ George Carlin

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 01-15-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Oreif: You do know that the PPG Epoxy primer you use has the same problem with UV degradation right? Per PPG's Automotive Restoration website: The DP and DPLF PPG epoxy primers require a topcoat for proper UV protection. So since BOTH products require a topcoat for proper UV protection and BOTH products can use any paint as a topcoat, What's the difference if someone chooses to use POR-15 or the PPG DP/DPLF primer as a base for their engine compartment and frame???

Yes I do know that. I never suggested you FINISH anything with it. (like folks do for por 15)
The difference is 1) With epoxy primer you have blasted ALL the rust off so it won't come back; 2) With epoxy primer you can prime EVERYTHING with it & it will stick better than por 15. Even they tell you por 15 is NOT for bare metal; 3) You should still use epoxy primer over the por 15 if you're going to paint it; & 4) If you're blasting the rust off anyway you don't need por 15 (& it's done right).

quote Originally posted by Oreif: UV is not a "state of the atmosphere". Clearness would be a "lack of weather" or as noted below a lack of weather activity. Weather is a set of all the phenomena occurring in a given atmosphere at a given time. Weather phenomena lie in the hydrosphere and troposphere. Weather refers to current activity, as opposed to the term climate, which refers to the average atmospheric conditions over longer periods of time. Weather occurs due to density (temperature and moisture) differences between one place to another. Ultraviolet (UV) light is electromagnetic radiation with a wavelength shorter than that of visible light, but longer than x-rays, in the range 400 nm to 10 nm, and energies from 3 eV to 124 eV. UV light is found in sunlight. As an ionizing radiation it can cause chemical reactions, (like degradation of polymers such as POR-15 or PPG's Epoxy primers) and causes many substances to glow or fluoresce. While atmosphereic activity (weather) may filter and reduce the UV radiation from reaching the earth's surface, UV rays are not weather. By your logic, the weather forcast should be: Tonight's weather is dark, Followed by widely scattered light in the morning. ~ George Carlin

I give up....

~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

[This message has been edited by Tha Driver (edited 01-15-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: Yes I do know that. I never suggested you FINISH anything with it. (like folks do for por 15)

No they do not. See "C" below

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: The difference is 1) With epoxy primer you have blasted ALL the rust off so it won't come back;

See "E" below

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: 2) With epoxy primer you can prime EVERYTHING with it & it will stick better than por 15. Even they tell you por 15 is NOT for bare metal;

SEE "E" and "A" below

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: 3) You should still use epoxy primer over the por 15 if you're going to paint it; &

WOW, you got one right.

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: 4) If you're blasting the rust off anyway you don't need por 15 (& it's done right).

See "A" below

A: WHAT IS THE BEST SURFACE ON WHICH TO PAINT POR-15?
POR-15 likes rusted surfaces best. Seasoned metal and sandblasted metal are also good. POR-15 does not adhere well to smooth, shiny surfaces, but will adhere well to those surfaces with the proper preparation.


B: WHAT IS THE 'PROPER PREPARATION'?
We make a product called 'Metal-Ready'. It's a rust remover that leaves a zinc phosphate coating on base metal, the perfect preprimer for POR-15. NOTE: New steel is coated with a protective oil finish at the mill. This finish must be removed before using POR-15 or Metal-Ready. Clean metal first with POR-15 Marine-Clean, then rinse with water and dry.


C: MUST I PAINT OVER POR-15 TO MAKE IT LAST?
POR-15 has an ultra-violet sensitivity and must be topcoated if continually exposed to sunlight. Once topcoated, POR-15 will remain effective for many years.

D: CAN I PAINT OVER POR-15 WITH OTHER PAINTS?
Absolutely. POR-15 will accept all paints, including lacquer-based paints. POR-15 Tie-Coat Primer is the best prime coat to use before topcoating POR-15. Be sure to read thoroughly our directions and tip sheets regarding topcoating before using POR-15.

E: MANY PRODUCTS CLAIM TO STOP RUST; SOME ARE PAINTS, SOME ARE CONVERSION PRODUCTS, SOME ARE RUST TREATMENTS. NONE SEEM TO REALLY STOP RUST PERMANENTLY. WHY IS POR-15 DIFFERENT, AND WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE IT WILL WORK ANY BETTER?
Rust is caused by moisture coming in contact with metal, which causes a chemical action called oxidation. All paints provide a measure of protection for a while, but since they are eventually softened and weakened by moisture, it is only a matter of time before moisture penetrates the painted surface and attacks the metal below. All of the so-called rust preventive paints on the market (except POR-15) are weakened by exposure to moisture. POR-15 is strengthened by exposure to moisture. Notice the hardness of the POR-15 coating. It doesn't chip, crack, or peel like ordinary paints do, and its hardness will resist the wear and tear of every day life.

Rust conversion products claim to change the chemical nature of rust and convert it to a more stable element that won't rust again. History of the failure of these products is well documented; most simply don't work for more than a few months at best, and they are subject to the same chipping and cracking that occurs with ordinary rust coatings.

Research is your friend.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 01-15-2009).]

Good God Almighty.
(E)
I never said you can spray epoxy over rust & it won't come back. I said it won't come back if you blast it ALL off, & metal prep & use epoxy. If there IS no rust, it won't come back (unless you scratch the paint or it rusts from the inside). With por 15 you STILL HAVE RUST UNDER IT, & IT WILL COME BACK SOONER OR LATER.
I'm through wasting my time here.

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: Good God Almighty. (E) I never said you can spray epoxy over rust & it won't come back. I said it won't come back if you blast it ALL off, & metal prep & use epoxy. If there IS no rust, it won't come back (unless you scratch the paint or it rusts from the inside). With por 15 you STILL HAVE RUST UNDER IT, & IT WILL COME BACK SOONER OR LATER. I'm through wasting my time here.

Quoted from http://www.por15.com/faq.asp
Rust is caused by moisture coming in contact with metal, which causes a chemical action called oxidation. All paints provide a measure of protection for a while, but since they are eventually softened and weakened by moisture, it is only a matter of time before moisture penetrates the painted surface and attacks the metal below. All of the so-called rust preventive paints on the market (except POR-15) are weakened by exposure to moisture.

Note that it states "metal".

MSDS sheets on all products listed in this thread are available on-line thru each manufacturers website. All the MSDS sheets provide safety, chemicals used, what they react to, and what can cause them to degrade. As one example the PPG DP90 primer can be degraded by UV rays AND exposure to moisture over time resulting in the lead content becoming loose causing a health concern. The PPG DPLF90 is the lead-free version which does not have the the same health risk for lead exposure.

Note the word "moisture" in both of the paragraphs above.

Research is your friend.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 01-16-2009).]