I know the HHR SS or Cobalt SS w/2.0 DFI turbo has an electric power steering rack. I looked a fellow GI's HHR SS yesterday and could not see the eletrical or the hydraulic connections to the rack. I did confirm there is not mechanical power steering pump on the engine block.

Has anyone done this swap or even looked into doing this?

Side Note: the HHR SS weighs 4900lbs. almost double a Fiero.

It's a standard unassisted rack. The actual electric assist is built into the column under the dash.

JazzMan

I think that somone on the forum was going to try the power steering column, but I'm not sure if they ever did it or not.

Interesting. Is there a thread around with more info?

quote Originally posted by Will: Interesting. Is there a thread around with more info?

Nevermind...it was Loyde, so I wouldn't expect it to happen anytime soon...

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...060811-2-067931.html

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/088281.html

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...060811-2-067931.html

Considering that Loyde isn't reputable here anymore I'd consider this a dead project...

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Considering that Loyde isn't reputable here anymore I'd consider this a dead project... JazzMan

Beat you to it by a minute...

I have a few of the Cobalt and Malibu/G6 power assist units that I've been playing with. The Cobalt, etc use a Denso system and the Malibu is a Delphi system. I've gone so far as to install one in a Fiero. The difficulty is in getting them to function. They are connected to the GMLAN network, and they will not work without a wake-up signal as well as various other signals from the network. To make one operate outside the GMLAN would not be impossible, but it is quite complicated if you are not familiar with the GMLAN system.

Jon

Interesting... So you'd basically need to accompany this modification with an engine swap using a CAN bus ECM...

However, I remember reading somewhere that the BCM is the bus master for GM products... does that mean that you'd need to add a BCM instead of an ECM?

The column mounted electric assist unit would work outstandingly well with a steering quickener.

Flaming River makes an aftermarket version, but it's brutally expensive:
http://www.flamingriver.com.../mode=cat/cat210.htm

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-12-2008).]

I remember reading about a GMLAN ECM that's being worked on to run just about any engine ever made. Anybody recall what the service number on that guy is? Granted cost may be the prohibiting factor, but there seems to be no real prohibiting factor in transplanting the entire GMLAN network from one car to another. I'm feverishly working on deciphering the GMLAN protocol, but it's certainly not easy.

How about installing a pair of power seats that can be adjusted at the touch of a button?

Unless you're road racing with slicks, I don't see a need for much steering effort... and I have a 13" Grant Simulated Carbon Fiber steering wheel (it has a slick, glossy surface).

quote Originally posted by Rolling Thunder: Unless you're road racing with slicks, I don't see a need for much steering effort...

You are sort of new here, so let me inform you this is a hot button subject. Some people don't see the need for power steering, but others do.

Name one modern production car that doesn't have PS? I don't think you can, it's not just steering effort, but you can get a quicker ratio with PS.

Most modern sports car are about 2.2 turns lock to lock, not the 3.x in the Fiero. You could never put a rack like that on a Fiero without PS or you would need a 3 foot diameter steering wheel.

For those and other reasons, some people would install PS in their Fiero if a complete bolt-on kit were available.

lotus elise and exige as far as i know do not have power steering.

they weigh 500 pounds less than a fiero .

yea. But they are production cars as stated above. IMO power steering is not needed. I have 2 other cars besides the fiero with out power assist. A Ford Focus svt and a Toyota Supra TT. But I do understand some people need it. When you are looking for a unit from a cobalt or something like that. Be careful. If you visit a cobalt forum there are many complaints on the early ones failing many times and can possibly lock up the steering.

[This message has been edited by turboguy327 (edited 12-14-2008).]

Elises and Exiges are generally more than 500# lighter than a Fiero. The Elise is about 1900 and I think the Exige is just slighty heavier... AND they have rear weight bias, which further lightens the front end. I've read an article someplace in which a Lotus engineer says that if the cars had any more front end weight, Lotus would want to put power steering in them.

They are, however, production cars.

Okay so there is one...the Lotus... My point is the same. For MOST production cars, the benefits of power steering outweigh the extra cost and complexity of the system.

quote Originally posted by 1986 Fiero GT: I'm feverishly working on deciphering the GMLAN protocol, but it's certainly not easy.

I bought some of the SAE documents on the subject, but I actually learned more from other free sources. It's a bit above my current level of knowledge and I have other priorities, so I haven't done much with it recently.

quote However, I remember reading somewhere that the BCM is the bus master for GM products... does that mean that you'd need to add a BCM instead of an ECM?

You need both. The BCM isn't needed to establish a network, the other modules can still communicate without it, but it provides the "wake up" signal and others. The ECM/TCM provides "engine running" and VSS signals, as well as others. The steering control module as it is would require the complete system to be functional. It would also need to be a system from a vehicle with OE electric steering, not just any GMLAN. It's not any easy project.

quote Originally posted by Tanlrat: I Side Note: the HHR SS weighs 4900lbs. almost double a Fiero.

Not trying to start anything, but I Googled "HHR weight" and found it to be 3,353 lbs. I can't imagine the SS would weigh 1,500 lbs. more.

Being a former Saturn tech, I have worked with lots of Ions, including owning one and had very few problems with the electric steering racks. They were actually quite solid and a well compacted unit, pretty much from the wheel to the intermediate shaft is the whole shebang. Assuming they are the same as the Cobalts, I dont see how they could lock up the steering if they malfunction. If I can find a picture somewhere of a cross section, they are pretty neat. You can completely disconnect the motor and just have regular steering.

As far as adapting them into a Fiero, I dont have the time to work on it, but it should be possible. The motor operates when torque is applied to the shaft (turning the wheel) and everything else is pretty much inputs. Again, a cross-section would help explain it better. Assuming you could get power where it is needed, you may actually be able to delete some of the inputs that are unnecessary in the unit itself. That may be a different angle to approach the problem from rather than trying to adapt GMLAN to the Fiero.

I am still working on finishing up my swap, as well as a full time job and going to school full time, so like I said not much time here to do much. If I ever get more money where I can tinker with more expensive parts like this, and more time, I might just try it.

-Joe

Nowhere in this thread have I seen that the actual steering ratio would be modified with the electronic steering, only the effort it seems. For me it would be valuable to have the ratio reduced allowing for quicker steering. Rickaddy's conversion of a power Corvette rack accomplishes that. I'm not clear what the perceived value is of the electronic steering.

Ken

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'88 Formula V6
'88 GT TPI V8

One of the joys of the Fiero is the lack of power steering! Good road feedback, good ratio for the wheelbase, no extra parasitic losses from the engine, etc.

Are we that spoiled and weak that we have to have a power assist to help in a car with a reear weight bias?

Donning flame suit.

Idk. I was lookin into getting a cobalt before I got my focus and visited some forums and some members on there said they where problem prone. And very expensive to repair if out of warranty. I have no personal experiance with it but have read about it on the cobalt forums. 1 of the reasons I ended up with the focus instead.

quote Originally posted by kennn: Nowhere in this thread have I seen that the actual steering ratio would be modified with the electronic steering, only the effort it seems. For me it would be valuable to have the ratio reduced allowing for quicker steering. Rickaddy's conversion of a power Corvette rack accomplishes that. I'm not clear what the perceived value is of the electronic steering. Ken

With the electric power steering at the bottom of the column, you could install a circle track style steering quickener into the intermediate shaft...

quote Originally posted by olejoedad: One of the joys of the Fiero is the lack of power steering! Good road feedback, good ratio for the wheelbase, no extra parasitic losses from the engine, etc. Are we that spoiled and weak that we have to have a power assist to help in a car with a reear weight bias? Donning flame suit.

HaHaHa, your a funny man? Mac Truck speed steering is fun/joy? YAAH RRIIIIIIGHT
"Good feedback" "good ratio for the wheel base" from your response I see you are an expert, possibly even an Automotive Journalist? Have you interviewed for American Top Gear?
"parasitic loss" you must truly be an engineer too?
I guess the fact that the hydro unit does not use much power at all in a straight line should mean nothing to a person of your "back ground".

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quote Originally posted by olejoedad: One of the joys of the Fiero is the lack of power steering! Good road feedback, good ratio for the wheelbase, no extra parasitic losses from the engine, etc. Are we that spoiled and weak that we have to have a power assist to help in a car with a reear weight bias? Donning flame suit.

I have arthritis in both shoulders, no joy driving a pre-88 for me, and the '88 isn't that easy at slow speed either. At some point in the not-too-distant future I may become physically incapable of driving a non-assisted car.

Criticizing someone for choosing power steering is lame, IMHO, sort of like criticizing someone for using a cart to move two twelve-packs to the register when any healthy person could carry them unaided.

The column-mounted assist seems like the best way to go, why did GM have to make it so hard to sort out the electronics?

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by olejoedad: One of the joys of the Fiero is the lack of power steering! Good road feedback, good ratio for the wheelbase, no extra parasitic losses from the engine, etc. Are we that spoiled and weak that we have to have a power assist to help in a car with a reear weight bias? Donning flame suit.

OleJoe, I can agree with that statement. But you have to agree with me also when I say that you probably couldn't thumb through this website and find any two Fieros that are exactly alike. Fiero owners are as different as the cars they own and all of us here at PFF march to the beat of, not just a different drum, but whatever the hell drum we damn well please! We relish in our differences and appreciate the abilities and accomplishments of others.

And as far as the "spoiled and weak" comment, go take a look at Troyboy's LS7 Fiero. If that is not the grossest example of excessive power you've ever seen in your life, then you show me what is, hehe. Does a Fiero really need power steering? According to some, yes. Does Troy really need 505 gut-wrenching, sh!t-yer-pants, omfg horsepower?

Only if he thinks he does. :-)

Not trying to disrespect anyone for their own perceived need for power steering, whether it be for a physical need or for their own personal choices. My own opinion is that the car doesn't need it. I have both 88 and pre 88, and I've always enjoyed the manual steering and the feel. I feel the same way about the addition of the S-10 vacuum booster to reduce pedal effort - not needed in my opinion.

As far as my credentials for being an automotive journalist, or an engineer, you'll just have to guess about that. My experience has been that most journalists and many engineers don't have much in the way of "car dirt" under their fingernails. Most of my manicures start with a wire brush and solvent.

Thanks for the kind comments.

quote Originally posted by kennn: Nowhere in this thread have I seen that the actual steering ratio would be modified with the electronic steering, only the effort it seems. For me it would be valuable to have the ratio reduced allowing for quicker steering. Rickaddy's conversion of a power Corvette rack accomplishes that. I'm not clear what the perceived value is of the electronic steering. Ken

I think I can chime in here. Im not sure if this is exactly what everyone had in mind, but I think adding the electric steering would allow one to ALSO add a better ratio steering rack. The electric steering alone would only be useful for those who do have a hard time turning the wheel now, but instead of over 3 turns lock to lock like we have now, this could be reduced to 2.? turns, which, would be much harder to turn the wheel without the use of a power steering.

I think its a great idea, and like I said it could be adaptable probably very easily maybe even without the use of the GMLAN system. Once one person successfully does it and posts a build thread with how easy it is, many more will follow. Damned if I am not too busy right now, and strapped for cash because I would love to start playing around with this idea.

-Joe

Edit to add, I just realized like an idiot that I actually have a full set of 2003-2004 Ion manuals. I could dig em out tonight and see what I find on the electric steering.

[This message has been edited by joesfiero (edited 12-15-2008).]

GMLAN is not that hard to hack....

http://www.gmtcny.com/lan.htm

to get started. you can program a PIC to emulate all you need to get that device operational. Just figure out the wake up command (should be documented someplace, or use a logic analyser on a working car tapped in the bus to record what is being sent to it) and simply send it on power up.

About a day with a car that has that unit in it and functional and a decent logic analyzer or even a digital storage scope could get you what you need to sent it.

[This message has been edited by timgray (edited 12-15-2008).]

Flaming River makes an aftermarket version.

http://www.flamingriver.com.../mode=cat/cat210.htm

Not cheap.

There is definite potential for performance benefit from a quicker ratio. I don't see how that can be disputed.

Also, are these systems speed sensitive?

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My Build Thread

The vehicle speed may be sent to the module, (havent had a chance to dig that manual out yet) but I think most of the motor operation comes from the torque input in the steering shaft. At slower speeds, greater force is required to turn the wheels, so the motor increases output based on driver input. At higher speeds, less force is required so the motor reduces its output. I guess you could call that speed sensitive.

I can tell you, when I had my Ion for those three years, I loved that electric steering. One thing I liked most about it is when I let other people drive it (a rare occasion, I hate others touching my cars, let alone driving them) they could turn the wheel to the lock and it wouldnt hurt a thing. My Cutlass on the other hand, I let my friend drive it into the shop at my school so I could do some work on it with the lift, and he held the wheel all the way when pulling out of the lot and into the fenced area.I could hear the pump whining and the belt squealing. That noise makes me cringe terribly. Stupid idiot gets out and tells me he thinks I need to tighten my belt because it sounds loose. I told him he was in his second year of auto tech school and he should know better, accompanied with a slap to the head of course.

Anyways, all this talk is giving me the itch to call my buddies up at the Saturn dealership and ask if they have any that they can get me. Unfortunately, if any were replaced Im sure it was a warranty deal and they will probably want it back. Guess Ill have to check the junkyards when I go.

-Joe

I think I can explain the customer complaints of the steering locking up when the system fails, it doesn't actually lock up. When all assist is completely and instantly lost while driving, it can be perceived as locked up to some drivers. In fact the steering can still be turned. I have a G6 unit installed in a Fiero and even with no power assist it turns fairly easily. With two screws the motor can be removed and it's like returning to stock.

The great thing about these electric power steering units is that they can potentially be completely tunable and switchable, from heavier to much lighter than stock feel, with virtually no loss of road feel. Imagine having enough assist to make it easy for your wife to park the car, then with the turn of a dial you can lower the assist to a level that makes you feel like a man. Unfortunately, as with most new vehicle systems, they are totally integrated.

quote Originally posted by joesfiero: it could be adaptable probably very easily maybe even without the use of the GMLAN system.

I assure you the OEM EPS module will not operate without a LAN. There's more to it than you are imagining, safety features, calibrations, etc., all managed through LAN and it will not function without them.

There are two ways to go about doing this, both require extensive knowledge of electronics. The first option is to build a new EPS module that uses the torque and direction/position inputs from the steering column sensors and generates an output to run the assist motor. You would need to consider safety and backup systems as well as return-to-center assist and other features you may not have thought of. The second option and the one I was pursuing is to use a microcontroller to emulate the required LAN signals and feed them to the OEM EPS module. The EPS module has something like 6 different calibrations in it's internal memory which can be selected via LAN, This would be a nice feature to have, allowing you to select the one that feels best. The speed input (via LAN) could also be manipulated to control the amount of assist.

quote GMLAN is not that hard to hack.... http://www.gmtcny.com/lan.htm to get started. you can program a PIC to emulate all you need to get that device operational. Just figure out the wake up command (should be documented someplace, or use a logic analyser on a working car tapped in the bus to record what is being sent to it) and simply send it on power up. About a day with a car that has that unit in it and functional and a decent logic analyzer or even a digital storage scope could get you what you need to sent it.

I'm with you on the emulation, but I think you are underestimating the speed and complexity of the LAN. There is too much info passing too quickly to be able to use simple tools. GMLAN is capable of something like 200 messages (not bits) per second. A few seconds on the LAN generates pages of info. You also need to capture the programming commands from the GM Tec2 to be able to program the wheel center position after installation and to change calibrations. Once you've logged these millions of commands, you need to figure out what they are. I've logged several minutes using a Mongoose on both a Cobalt and a Malibu, each one having a different type of EPS system. Imagine looking through pages of commands trying to figure out which is the one you need. Then feed them back to the EPS and try to figure out why it's not working. I've been through it all, it's not as easy as a day with a car and a scope. As time goes on I suspect more information will become publicly available, but right now you cannot get it without paying for it, which I have done to some extent.

Jon

I didn't even know there was going to be an HHR SS.

Im with you Fieroaddiction, I was a GM tech for 5 years, plenty of factory training including a 2 week school on the Saturn Ion with the electric steering taught in Spring Hill, Tennessee just down the road from the Saturn plant. I understand the complexities of GMLAN and how valuable it is. My thought was just being able to give the motor the inputs it needs without a LAN line. Im sure I would need much more experience before diving into such a project, hence one of the reasons I am not. I just threw the idea out there because it was an angle that was not being approached yet.

Like you said, as time goes on someone somewhere will figure it out to be an easy swap with lots more information out there. Id love to be that guy, but money and time are the main factors in me not even trying it as of yet.

-Joe