Can anyone detail how you remove the stock cam and install a new cam on the 4.9?

Also my motor has been sitting in a garage for a year and I sealed off the throttle body but forgot the exhaust manifolds werent on and to seal the exhaust ports (Dooh!) in any case should I be worried about rust on the cylinder walls?

No one?

It appears to install like other V8's and V6's:


From https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...2/HTML/061613-2.html

I did a search on 4.9 swap and got quite a few results.

EDIT: to add, I had a 3.4L V6 sit in my garage for 2 years and had no issues with rust on the cylinder walls. YMMV

[This message has been edited by Hudini (edited 09-21-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Hudini: EDIT: to add, I had a 3.4L V6 sit in my garage for 2 years and had no issues with rust on the cylinder walls. YMMV

The 4.9's cylinder liners are prone to rust very quickly if not coated with oil. I would check them before trying to start that engine.

Got a borescope?

Ed

Only picture I have. I broke the clip holding the top timing gear and had to get a new one from cadillac though =(

So It just slides out. I am assumeing I also have to remove the pushrods? I mean they would get in the way of pulling it out if you didnt? I have never removed the cam on anything other than OHC engines (mostly motorcycles) and the service book I have for the caddy doesnt cover cam removal. How much is a borescope? Is it just a flexible periscope like thing with mirrors and a flashlight?

If you never pulled a motor apart - do NOT let your first one be with the 4.9. There are many little oddities with the 4.9 that are not the same as other motors.

From experience - swapping the cam does not make that much of a difference (ie: not worth the trouble). The problem with the 4.9 is the intake and heads, so if you are looking for more power, this is the area that you need to worry about (not the cam).

However, changing the cam can be done easily on the 4.9:

- mount the motor on a stand that you can rotate the motor upside down
- drain 'all' fluids (coolant, oil) - you will rotate the motor upside down, so any fluids will spill
- remove valve covers
- remove rockers arms - IMPORTANT, remove the whole assembly (4 or 5 13 mm nuts and 4 or 5 10 mm bolts and lift the bridge and rocker arm/supports out together). If you remove each arm separately you will need to replce 'all' the bolts that hold in the support arms or you WILL have problems in the future.
- remove push rods (store them in the proper order if you will reuse them, see NOTE: further down)
- remove the water pump
- remove timing chain cover
- rotate crankshaft to align the marks (so you don't mess up the timing)
- remove timing chain and sprockets
- rotate the motor upside down (allows the lifters to move away from the cam)
- remove the cam

reverse proceedure to install - follow torque specs.

NOTE: you might as well install new push rods at this point as well - my experience has been with the Delta cam, you need the longer ones (seems to be the general concenses with others that have done this change - you may have a noisy valve train otherwise).

Install new gasket and water pump at this point as well (make sure it has the metal impeller no thte plastic one). New timing chain is up to you and how worn the original is.

IMHO: I wouldn't waste the money on a cam - if you want more go, forced air is the only way.

I had some ticks without replacing the pushrods but it disappeared. I think the lifters made up the difference. Not in everyones case though.

Cam is a cheap mod $130. Not sure of the numbers but I felt it was worth it.

[This message has been edited by arte444 (edited 09-22-2008).]

Mickey so far you are the only person that has told me that this mod is not worth the cash. Not that it invalidates what you are trying to say, but everyone else has said this is the best mod to do on a budget performance wise. Also it leaves room for inprovement later. Why do you say that the Cam does not help?

What if I have no choice but to take apart the 4.9? Would it simply be better to transport the whole motor to a machinist or shop and let them do it and then take it home again?

As far as borscopes go after a short google I found
http://www.cabelas.com/cabe...m_ite=0053991229072a
and
http://www.tooloutfitters.n...optic-borescope.html

The second is an electronic one but it costs $100, could I get by with the manual one useing a flashlight?

"- remove rockers arms - IMPORTANT, remove the whole assembly (4 or 5 13 mm nuts and 4 or 5 10 mm bolts and lift the bridge and rocker arm/supports out together). If you remove each arm separately you will need to replce 'all' the bolts that hold in the support arms or you WILL have problems in the future."
This would be the circled bolts?--


And this stand should work for holding and rotating the engine?
http://www.harborfreight.co...taf?Itemnumber=32916

And yeah the Cam was not that expensive compared to alot of other things. It was $160, with a $40 core, and $15 shipping. Isnt it supposed to help eleviate the 4.9's habit of trailing off in the higher revs?

And if I did have to swap in different rods then what ones would I need? How do the lifters ''make up the difference'' arnt they a small metal assembly with a roller on one end and seat for the rod on the other, its not like they get bigger so what changed alleviating the noise in your engine? Also does this ticking noise sound like valve tapping or is it distinctly different, I mean if I hear it I dont want to freak out and think I ruined the whole thing.


Edit was to add a forgotten link

[This message has been edited by Dizzixx (edited 09-22-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Dizzixx: Mickey so far you are the only person that has told me that this mod is not worth the cash. Not that it invalidates what you are trying to say, but everyone else has said this is the best mod to do on a budget performance wise. Also it leaves room for inprovement later. Why do you say that the Cam does not help?

No one has posted actual dyno numbers to show that there is a difference (including myself). I did NOT feel and real difference between the 2 cams. Hear it all the time to change the cam, but no one posts any numbers to prove that it is an actual upgrade. Just because someone says so, doesn't mean that it is an improvement - there are many examples where installing a 'performance' cam does not necessary help - it has to work well with other characterists as well, just because it should be an improvement - doesn't mean that it is. You are better off installing the Allante intake since it is better flowing. The bottleneck on the 4.9 is not the cam but the whole intake - it only passes so much air, sure holding the valve open that little bit longer will help get more air in - but how much are we really talking about especially when the flow is restricted.

If someone would take the time and post before and after numbers, then I would have believe it - till then, it is just hear say. I have driven my car before and after, and did not notice any real improvements in performance. How many people here can do the same comparasion, they just stuck the cam in just because (insert reason here) before initial install. I dorve my car for a year in stock form, installed cam (no real improvement), ported and polished intake/heads (flow tested and still no real improvement) - next will be to bore the throttle body to 2" and then turbo/supercharge - would have been done already, but got tired of working on it without much gains. Right now I just want to drive the car and try to enjoy it.

quote Originally posted by Dizzixx: What if I have no choice but to take apart the 4.9? Would it simply be better to transport the whole motor to a machinist or shop and let them do it and then take it home again?

Why do you need to take it apart? Gaskets for this motor cost more than another motor from a yard - not worth rebuilding. Unless you plan on doing a whole lot of modification to the motor - in which case I would also NOT recommend the 4.9. You have a dump a lot of time and money to get any real gains out of it, it is cheaper to go with the SBC or a N* if you want a V8. The 4.9 is a cheap and easy upgrade to the 2.8, but it is not a 1/4 mile car. In fact, in a discussion with PBJ it was meantioned that he would NOT do all the work he did on the last 4.9, he would just slap a turbo on it and go (forget all the head/intake work).

quote Originally posted by Dizzixx: "- remove rockers arms - IMPORTANT, remove the whole assembly (4 or 5 13 mm nuts and 4 or 5 10 mm bolts and lift the bridge and rocker arm/supports out together). If you remove each arm separately you will need to replce 'all' the bolts that hold in the support arms or you WILL have problems in the future." This would be the circled bolts?--

...if that picture is of your motor - it's too late. The ones circled are the [u]only[/b] ones you remove (5 nuts and 4 bolts). You have removed the ones that hold the rocker brackets in place. Those are self tapping bolts and can NOT be reused. You have to buy new regular bolts when putting it back together as the self tapping ones will strip out easy once they have been removed and installed back into the same holes. See picture:

quote Originally posted by Dizzixx: And yeah the Cam was not that expensive compared to alot of other things. It was $160, with a $40 core, and $15 shipping. Isnt it supposed to help eleviate the 4.9's habit of trailing off in the higher revs?

No - it's an air intake limitation, see my previous post (you need to install larger valves along with porting/polishing on heads and intake - and you still do not get much better performance (been there done that) - the only way is forced air or NOS). My car has since been tested (about a year ago) and it drops off after 3800 rpms (big drop off after 4200 rpms) - and this is with the so called 'performance' cam. No before numbers, so I have nothing to compare it to.

quote Originally posted by Dizzixx: And if I did have to swap in different rods then what ones would I need? How do the lifters ''make up the difference'' arnt they a small metal assembly with a roller on one end and seat for the rod on the other, its not like they get bigger so what changed alleviating the noise in your engine? Also does this ticking noise sound like valve tapping or is it distinctly different, I mean if I hear it I dont want to freak out and think I ruined the whole thing.

The part number for some Comp Cam rods that fit are: 7823-16. I had problems getting those specific rods and bought some Manley rods - but any 7.700 rods will fit.


...anyways, that is all I am going to say on the motor, do with it as you please, I am just giving you my opinion and trying to save you some cash (or from being disappointed) - after all there seems to be alot better 4.9 'experts' here (I have only installed/built a half dozen or so)...

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 09-22-2008).]

Really the thing is I had money got all excited and thought to myself why not do the easy swap.... so lots of $$$ later I am not done as it isnt easy finding time. I bought the motor which had allready been rebuilt and I payed somewhat of a premium, I think I did okay but probably still paid too much..... So the idea of having thrown away that money because I was stupid enought to let the sleeves rust really is not an exciting idea.

I would like to do lots of things in the future, IE turbo, allante intake, but money, know how, and the availability of certain things make that difficult. I have been working fairly dilligently towards getting this thing running as I want it working before it snows here.

No that picture is not of mine I pulled it from another thread.

What do new sleeves cost, and where can I get them, they were not on rockauto, at least I didnt see them. What does it take to put them in if I do, and what are my other options? Can they be honed if it is just surface rust? Would they then need new rings?

And will that engine stand work?

quote Originally posted by Dizzixx: If I made a bracket for the second mounting hole out of 1/4'' steel plate would it be to thick or would it still need shimming forward? Also in this thread or another capping the water pump inlet somewhere or another is mentioned, where is that and why does it need to be capped? And where does this pulley come from-- I thought I got everything off a 4.9 when I went to the junkyard recently but looking at that I am not %100 sure I have that one.

That pulley is not off the 4.9 - it's either a 70 mm 6 groove Dayco # 89015 or a 75 mm 6 groove Dayco # 89009 - it fits: idler pulley 93 GMC van with no a/c

I don't remember the spacing dimensions (that was too long ago) so can not comment - mount the pulley to the alternator so that the pulley is in line with the others (use a long straight edge across the alternator pulley to check for alignment - make sure it is a 'straight edge') and take your measurements from there.

Water pump inlet only get capped on the new cars where the heater core hose is merged into the return coolant pipe (ie: 88 car and some 87).

All these questions have obvious answers once you actually put the motor into the car (stock coolant hoses fit the 4.9 without modification on the water pump, etc) - are are reading into everything too deep and looking at too many posts (there are different methods of installing the motor depending on what the car was before - ie: 84 or 85 to 87 or 88 or a 4 cyl or a 6 cyl, etc) - just stick it in and ask the questions if you run into a problem - you are running on information over load, not all of it is needed.

Liners, is rusted you have to hone/bore them depending on damage (again you are reading into this too much, sure they rust, but they are no different than any other block on the market (ie: they all rust) - unless you live in an area that has very high humidity, I would not worry about it, especially if the engine is put together - if it is apart - that is another story). If it was me, just stick it in the car and don't worry about it - 4.9's are cheap from the wreckers (cheaper than a complete gasket set once you pull it apart). If you 'have' to take it apart and going to bore the liners, just have them bored to accept the N* pistons already. I stress this again - if you have no experience with pulling apart and building engine, the 4.9 is NOT where you want to start (especially with the liners - there is orientation and height that you have to consider when installing the liners) - blah, blah, blah.

...and before you ask, see my post in this thread: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/079246.html it has all the wiring info you need.

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: If it was me, just stick it in the car and don't worry about it - 4.9's are cheap from the wreckers (cheaper than a complete gasket set once you pull it apart). .

Not that you asked...but after having owned one of these engines for 4 years, I agree with Tim. The beauty of the 4.9 is that it is a cheap but significant upgrade to the 2.8 and an awesome upgrade to the 2.5. If you are intent on building a 1/4 mile race engine or performing tons of mods, and tweaking then you have selected the wrong engine.

Before I hit you with more questions I would just like to say thank you, you guys have been a great help and I havnt even done much yet. I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my barrage of questions when I am sure you could probably find something better to do.

To mickey-
yeah I have read the wiring thread, I think I get the idea, electronics tends to come easy to me. I guess that will be tested when I get into it. I wanted to have the engine on the cradle and the cradle in the car with the engine end of things connected so I can get a correct length for wires so I havnt even begun the wiring process. But I have a spare wiring harness out of an 85' with the connectors I need as well as the 87's as a backup, I allready bought the caddy ecm and wiring harness.

about the pulley. I am now a little confused, I thought the camaro tensioner got a chevy can pulley on it to replace the camaro pulley leaving a camaro tensioner and astrovan pulley. But now as I understand it you use the camaro tensioner as is with the pulley it comes with and then buy the astro van idler pulley assem and replace the pulley itself with the dayco pulley? And the astro van idler bolts direct to the block?

Being me I will probably at least remove the plugs and take a peek and see what I can see. The potential to have done damage to the engine, however small the probability may be, will drive me absolutely bonkers until I have put it to rest.

To Jscott-

Yeah I know thats exactly why I picked this engine. I just figured I would try to get all my eggs in one basket, and I was also kinda running on other peoples info, everyone said the cam is a good upgrade so I looked at the expense and weighed that against what everyone said and decided it was worth it. Maybe it isnt, I bought it and I am going to put it in at this point, maybe its a waste but I have allready budgeted it and figure what the hell why not.

I would like to upgrade the 4.9 or swap something else in, in the future, but I dont have the money or know how at the moment. Also I am coming from a daily driver 2.5 for 3 years now and want just about anything that has more power. I figure doubleing more or less the numbers is a good place to start without getting over my head. I have no intention of 1/4 racing this car, I mean maybe for the hell of it with a Gtech or something but not seriously. I enjoy driving, and I especially enjoy driving my fiero, I just want to make that experiance more enjoyable rather than the chore that the 2.5 can be sometimes. I hope that put to rest an qaums about my engine selection.

edit : I realized that I mention a chevy astro tensioner pulley and not the GMC I must have got mixed up I believe it is a reference to the pulley that goes on the GMC tensioner
the info was in this thread https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/082515.html 3/4 of the way done the page

[This message has been edited by Dizzixx (edited 09-23-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Dizzixx: about the pulley. I am now a little confused, I thought the camaro tensioner got a chevy can pulley on it to replace the camaro pulley leaving a camaro tensioner and astrovan pulley. But now as I understand it you use the camaro tensioner as is with the pulley it comes with and then buy the astro van idler pulley assem and replace the pulley itself with the dayco pulley? And the astro van idler bolts direct to the block?

The tensioner is bolted to the 4.9 as it comes out of the box (you change nothing - just bolt it to the 4.9) - the one that is circled above in red is the Dayco ones that I meantioned. As I said, everything is clear when you start putting it together...

There is NO Astro Van pulley assembly - you are using the pulley only - the part numbers I gave you mean buy that pulley or go to a scrap yard and find an Astro Van and pull the pulley from it - same pulley. At one time you would go to the parts store and ask for an idler pulley to fit an Astro van - no need to ask for that when you now have the part number. Like I said you are reading too much and getting confused with the old (obsolete) and new infomation. You have to build your own stand off (spacer) to space the pulley out and line it up with the others (I don't recall the thickness either off hand, but I 'think' it was something like 12 mm - easy to measure when you start putting it together).

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 09-23-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Dizzixx: Also I am coming from a daily driver 2.5 for 3 years now and want just about anything that has more power. I figure doubleing more or less the numbers is a good place to start without getting over my head. I have no intention of 1/4 racing this car, I mean maybe for the hell of it with a Gtech or something but not seriously. I enjoy driving, and I especially enjoy driving my fiero, I just want to make that experiance more enjoyable rather than the chore that the 2.5 can be sometimes. I hope that put to rest an qaums about my engine selection.

I went from a 2.5 to a 4.9 and as I said it's an awesome upgrade in that respect. You won't be disappointed.

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: All these questions have obvious answers once you actually put the motor into the car (stock coolant hoses fit the 4.9 without modification on the water pump, etc) - are are reading into everything too deep and looking at too many posts (there are different methods of installing the motor depending on what the car was before - ie: 84 or 85 to 87 or 88 or a 4 cyl or a 6 cyl, etc) - just stick it in and ask the questions if you run into a problem - you are running on information over load, not all of it is needed. Liners, is rusted you have to hone/bore them depending on damage (again you are reading into this too much, sure they rust, but they are no different than any other block on the market (ie: they all rust) - unless you live in an area that has very high humidity, I would not worry about it, especially if the engine is put together - if it is apart - that is another story). If it was me, just stick it in the car and don't worry about it - 4.9's are cheap from the wreckers (cheaper than a complete gasket set once you pull it apart). If you 'have' to take it apart and going to bore the liners, just have them bored to accept the N* pistons already. I stress this again - if you have no experience with pulling apart and building engine, the 4.9 is NOT where you want to start (especially with the liners - there is orientation and height that you have to consider when installing the liners) - blah, blah, blah.

I agree 100%. Just concentrate on getting it in the car and running. Not likley that you are going to have a problem if it came from a running car.

When I started my project I started with a junk yard 4.9 with over 150,000 miles. I opted to do a rebuild for this reason. Good thing I did too cause it was in need of attention. This is not something you want to deal with if possible. Lines can be bored easily if needed but the 4.9 is a bit of a PITA to rebuild. Requires more attention to detail then most motors and the teardown is cruitial. The alluminum block saves weight but also can lead to other problems when taking it apart. Stripped threads are the most common and you don't want to fix these if you can avoid it. Like Mickey said. Get it in, get it running, then consider upgrading if you still feel you need to. Coming from a 2.5 you probably wont, at least not for quite a while. Good luck.

PS. 4.9 rebuild info can be found near the bottom of this page. Read up and you will see why this is probably not something you want to take on at the moment...
http://www.fieroaddiction.com/caddy49b.html

*** I am NOT an expert. Just one of the few that have actually rebuilt one these engines. Its not too tough but if you have never rebuilt an engine before you DO NOT want to start here. ***

Thanks. I read both your threads about the 4.9 rebuild and intall and allready had them bookmarked

I guess I will just focus on getting it in the car then. What is the best way to center the engine in the cradle? I have the engine bolted to the trans and the trans bolted to the cradle. I measured along both sides and it seems somewhere between 1/8th and 1/4 inch off pushed towards the front on the passenger side.

quote Originally posted by Dizzixx: Thanks. I read both your threads about the 4.9 rebuild and intall and allready had them bookmarked I guess I will just focus on getting it in the car then. What is the best way to center the engine in the cradle? I have the engine bolted to the trans and the trans bolted to the cradle. I measured along both sides and it seems somewhere between 1/8th and 1/4 inch off pushed towards the front on the passenger side.

I used a couple of ratchet tie downs I had lying around. The holes where the trans mounts attach to the cradle are slotted. Those are the bolts you will want to loosen. Once you have it in place tighten the nuts back up. Your at the fun part.

okay thanks, I was wondering why they were slotted...doh