That's right folks. I am building an '84 with a CA18DET (1.8L, DOHC, 16 valves, turbocharged, 185 stock hp) in it. The engine is a JDM model that was found in the Japanese version of the 180SX. I have a 1989 Nissan Pulsar NX donor car for the transmission, suspension, and wiring. To my knowledge, this swap has never been done before, and I hope I can get it finished in time for the 2007 AutoX season. (KYSCCA!!)
Now, I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, an engineer. I am but a humble, half-ass mechanic, with a big imagination. I have done all the work myself without so much as my wife, son, or friends turning a single bolt. I may have gotten in over my head, but "whatta way to go!!" A bad day working on my Fiero is still better than my best day at work.
I hate to link to an outside forum, but rest assured that my intentions are honest and I mean no disrespect. There's a lot of information and even more pics and to re-post them here would serve only to eat up two months worth of this site's bandwidth and create a massive headache for me to do so. But Cliff, if you decide that linking to another forum isn't on your top ten list of cool things to do, feel free to delete this thread and I'll figure something else out, hehe.
Thats freaking awesome... I wanted to do it with my lil mitsubishi 2.0ltr twin turbo but got nothing but negative results when the idea arose... so I sold it...
I love this idea...
and yeah thats freaking awesome
good luck in the autoX season dude...
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02:14 PM
wftb Member
Posts: 3692 From: kincardine,ontario,canada Registered: Jun 2005
Thanks for the positive comments folks. Wftb, the Nissan axle lengths are original.
And FormulaGT, I like to tell people that my wife and I bought a 24'x44' garage on a half acre that came with a 3 bedroom house, hehehe!
As far as keeping the updates coming, there's a slight problem with that. I am currently deployed at Ft. Bliss in El Paso, Texas. As soon as I get back to Kentucky, I plan on attacking this project with a vengeance and getting it done. Unfortunately for me though, I don't have access to a machine shop so if any of you know of someone in the Louisville, Kentucky area that would be willing to help me design and fabricate a shift linkage assy modeled after the Fiero assy for the Nissan tranny, let me know please. Thanks in advance!
And anyone wanting to see this car in person may do so once I get back to Kentucky. Just contact me here and I'd be glad to show you what I've done.
Bro.
[This message has been edited by Brocephus (edited 01-20-2007).]
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06:58 PM
87_FieroGT Member
Posts: 698 From: Mill Creek, WA USA Registered: Jul 2005
This is an AWESOME build! My first car was a Pulsar like the one you pulled the engine from. I had the CA18DE not the T saddly but I loved the way the car drove. It was great. I can't wait to see it inside a Fiero and hear what it sounds like. THere is just something about a High Rpm Engine...
Good luck! You are now my new hero!
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01:31 AM
PFF
System Bot
Brocephus Member
Posts: 617 From: Franklin, NY, USA Registered: Mar 2006
Hehehe Trot, you're more than welcome to make that sign. Hell, while you're at it, make one for me too!!
And again, thanks for the kind words and encouragement. Updates will be forthcoming in the (near?) future, as soon as I can get de-mobilized and sent back home. I am jonesin' BAD to get to work on this critter, heheh!
I wanted to + all the folks that left me some good feedback, but I guess ya gotta have 30+ posts to do so. No biggie though, as it looks like I might be stickin' around a bit. :-)
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06:05 AM
Jan 22nd, 2007
opm2000 Member
Posts: 1347 From: Versailles, Ky USA Heart of the Bluegrass Registered: Dec 2000
Give me a shout when you get back. Between the Louisville-Cincinnatti-Lexington Fiero folk, I'm sure we can help you thru any part hunting or fabrication needs.
This is one install I'd like to see completed. As much as I disdain ricers, etc., I came to have an appreciation for a well put together engine when we replaced the 4 banger in my son's Eclipse. And my wife's Lexus runs like a scalded hound. I've often wondered how they would transplant
Neat stuff there.On the rear shot of the engine on the cradle, is the outer CV axle being supported before the cup? Pretty nifty looking.
I hope to give you some competition sometime with a 204t from a turbo Sunbird.
PS: What wheels are those in the profile on the other forum?
Sorry it took me so long to get back with you, hehehe.
Yes, the passenger side axle is actually a two-piece assembly. There's a support for it that is bolted to the engine.
The wheels..... I really can't remember. That was a photoshop I did of what I wanted it to look like. I took the picture of the car from The Tire Rack in their wheel section. I then scrolled through a bunch of wheels and picked some I thought looked good and photoshopped them in. My tastes have changed a bit since then, so I will most likely be going with a different style.
BMW, I saw your thread for the first time last night and somehow I found myself out in my garage at 11:30pm, looking over my wiring harness and the related engine components to see hwo they all went together. I also got to looking at my mounts and if you were able to use solid mounts with a high-revving, high-torque, high-horsepower engine, then I should be able to do the same with this one. I was attempting to alter the factory mounts for use in my cradle and I do not like the end result. The mounts seem really soft and as bulky as they are, it's difficult to find ample room for their placement. Solid mounts will be much easier to place and will take up less space. Would you be willing to provide me with some dos and don'ts for solid mounts?
Much thanks and I appreciate the look-see. :-)
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01:17 PM
bmwguru Member
Posts: 4692 From: Howell, NJ USA Registered: Sep 2006
Do these engines even make good power? the exhaust manifold looks pretty crappy flowing?
what is your target hp? 300hp?
what are your plans for an air charge cooler? Mid mount? air to water? none?
Just asking because this seems like a lot of work if your going to keep it a stock 180hp.. But its your car so.... "when in Rome..."
good luck
The CA18DET is a pretty sick engine. It's "officially" rated 173hp/166ft/lbs. But the catch is that it's a GOD of high revs. They are built to rev well over 8k rpm, and they have been built to achieve 600hp. They were shipped out with Garret T25's on them. 'Cehpus, throw on some new treated head bolts, a nice head gasket, and a Garret T3/T4, and you will have yourself a rocketship my man. That engine you have is a diamond in the rough, and you can build it, abuse it, and it will come back for more. The awesome thing is that since it was shipped with w/a turbo, it's ECM already understands positive pressure in the intake manifold, which *can* be an issue with something like the L44. Even @ 180hp, you can make a lot of people see your tail lights from 70mph up, because of that engine's revving capabilities. And a cradle drop is nothing, so when you wanna rebuild it for more power a year from now, it'll be no trouble!
P.S. - 'Cephus, I think that engine was actually in the euro 200sx, not the 180... or dost the wiki deceive mine eyes?
2feido, I can't take total credit for choosing this engine. Its former owner chose me, hehe. I put out an APB for a foreign, turbo, 4 banger and about two weeks later, I got an e-mail from a guy that said he'd sell me the whole kit and kaboodle if I promised not to waste the engine.
As far as charge cooling, I've seen plans for an air/water cooler I liked, but I also saw something for water injection and I really liked that idea as well.
Fieroboom gave ya the scoop on that engine. I've only read about the engine; never seen one in action. But I've heard some sick stories of obscene amounts of horsepower from a little bitty 1.8L. They're good to 300 hp on the stock headbolts and gasket, and once those are changed the sky is the limit. 8,000 rpms and 13 pounds of forced induction sounds like fun. :-)
A lot of people are really hung up on the horsepower an engine makes, but I think the horsepower to displacement ratio is more important. The 2.5L in my Fiero has 92 hp for a horsepower per liter rating of 36.8 hp/L. The Nissan engine I'm installing is a 1.8L that will crank out 185 hp for 102.78 hp/L. Massive displacement isn't all it's cracked up to be if you're not doing anything with it. If the LS7 were held to the same standard as my little 1.8L, it would be packing 719.5 horsepower!
The 2.5L Iron Duke uses pushrods. The dual overhead cam setup in the Nissan engine is much more efficient. The Nissan engine also has 16 valves which make breathing much easier. My Fiero will also lose some extra weight with the swap as the Nissan engine has a smaller block and an aluminum head. I can literally pick that Nissan engine up with my bare hands. (I feel it for the next four days, but it can be done.) The Nissan engine will rev to almost double that of the Fiero redline. And installed in a car that will weigh somewhere in the neighborhood of 1900 lbs when I'm done with it, it should scoot along rather nicely.
Fieroboom, unfortunately, my engine didn't come with an ECU. I have a harness for it from a 1989 Pulsar, but the ECU is for the Pulsar's CA16DE. I'm going to have to send my ECU to a guy named Matt Brown in Australia so he can re-image it and install a daughterboard with the NIStune software. It'll run me about $325 for the hardware, software and NIStune lisence. Once that's done, I'll be able to hook up a laptop to the ECU and fine tune this monster.
[This message has been edited by Brocephus (edited 12-03-2008).]
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11:54 PM
Dec 4th, 2008
Brocephus Member
Posts: 617 From: Franklin, NY, USA Registered: Mar 2006
shoot me a pm with what you are looking to design and I might be able to help you come up with something that will work and still look great. Dave
To be honest, I thought about fabricating a steel frame or cage the motor and tranny would bolt to and then making the cage to where it could bolt to the unaltered fiero cradle. That way I could potentially sell this as a kit. Of course it would be about $500 dollars more if they wanted a shift linkage provided!
But since I've already altered the cradle somewhat, I would be happy with just some regular ol' 3/8" plate mounts that bolted (or welded) to the cradle and bolted to the engine. I have plenty of room and things to bolt to, I was just curious to know if, according to your experience, there was anything you never do when designing solid mounts.
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12:02 AM
fieroboom Member
Posts: 2132 From: Hayden, AL (BFE) Registered: Oct 2008
Originally posted by Brocephus: Fieroboom, unfortunately, my engine didn't come with an ECU. I have a harness for it from a 1989 Pulsar, but the ECU is for the Pulsar's CA16DE. I'm going to have to send my ECU to a guy named Matt Brown in Australia so he can re-image it and install a daughterboard with the NIStune software. It'll run me about $325 for the hardware, software and NIStune lisence. Once that's done, I'll be able to hook up a laptop to the ECU and fine tune this monster.
Ouch... Well, I guess it's not all that bad, considering you can plug the toughbook in it for tweaks... But it sounded to me like you're going to start out kinda stock, and maybe do a build up later...? Or did I dream that? Cuz if you're gonna keep it mostly stock for the time being, I'd try to get my hands on an ***SX ECM and just "see how it does" to begin with.
By the way, you never verified whether it's actually the 180SX or the 200SX... or either/both? Cuz if it's not just the 200SX, then I'm going to go correct the wiki...
To get the Immobilizer deleted in the VR6 swap, I almost had to pay $800 to a less than par tuning company. I pulled some strings and got GIAC to do it cheaper....on the side. I wouldn't develop a kit IMO. If someone tries to install it and can't figure out the difference between a screwdriver and a wrench, it will be YOUR fault and a crappy kit design...not installation error. I have seen Archie get bashed for his kit and I believe it is mostly when he sells the kit and the installer doesn't have any mechanical ability. Even FieroX and PR are taking their fair share of criticism. I was asked to make a few VR6 kits, but I'd rather just install them myself, so that I know it will get done correctly and not fall apart on the first test drive. Dave
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06:34 AM
85duke Member
Posts: 536 From: Sacramento,CA Registered: Aug 2008
Exactly right what dave is saying. If i want a VR6 or R32 powered fiero I will take my car to him. If i want a v8 i would bring it to archie. I could pull off a 3.8 sc on my own but I would want the insurance the designer of the kit is the installer that way i know it was done right. Btw dave when do you need my car as a test mule for the R32?
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06:50 AM
fieroboom Member
Posts: 2132 From: Hayden, AL (BFE) Registered: Oct 2008
Exactly right what dave is saying. If i want a VR6 or R32 powered fiero I will take my car to him. If i want a v8 i would bring it to archie. I could pull off a 3.8 sc on my own but I would want the insurance the designer of the kit is the installer that way i know it was done right. Btw dave when do you need my car as a test mule for the R32?
Very well put. Perfect example is Archie's widebody kit. It's a very nice buildup, kit, and looks to make things a whole lot easier, but in the end, if the customer doesn't know how (or doesn't want to) fiberglass, then it might as well be a widebody kit made of modeling clay. I agree that you shouldn't make a kit UNLESS you are able to come up with a fool-proof bolt-in that includes ALL the information (and supplies) needed, but that would take a crapton of R&D, and thus is most likely not worth the small amount of money and the huge headaches you could possibly get from it.
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09:19 AM
Patrick Member
Posts: 36442 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
i like this engine. i revived one in someones 240 when they botched the swap. it reminds me of the M40 bmw engine. the valve train with bucket lifters always struck me as much more superior to the rocker arm setup on the sr20. plus its an iron block if i recall. why this engine isnt used more often is beyond me when all you have to do is put forged pistons in it to run more boost instead of buying sleeves and having them installed which costs a ton. apparently it cant be reved as high nor can it handle the power like an sr20. i didnt look far into it but i dont see how this is so.
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08:35 PM
Brocephus Member
Posts: 617 From: Franklin, NY, USA Registered: Mar 2006
I just googled CA18DET vs. SR20DET and clicked on the NissanEXA site as I am a member there. I found this to be an interesting read. The author is from Australia, so his dialect is gonna be a little different.
quote
Originally posted by EXRace:
Some Points of Interest – the CA18DET –vs- SR20DET
Certainly there appears to be a great deal of interest out there in which one of Nissan’s ’hot-4’s is the hottest of the bunch.
Nissan have made some very formidable hot 4’s in the past, but this note is aimed directly at S13 owners who may be looking at either the CA18DET or SR20DET engines.
Firstly let me say that the SR was never designed to technically supersede the CA in any way other that cost. As with natural evolution and development the SR became more powerful. How much of that power is directly attributed to the fact that it is a 2 litre rather than only 1800cc?
Many of the famed benefits of the SR20DET were in the CA18DET too. Piston oil squirters and crank stud girdle for starters.
Externally, The 2 engines look completely different, and they should. The first obvious difference is the SR’s shiny alloy block, Next you notice the different inlet manifolds. The list goes on. Don’t mistake that alloy bloke as being lightweight either – there is that much alloy in the thing to keep it strong that they weigh no less than the CA.
A lot of people refer to the CA as ‘the plastic motor’ – why I don’t know, when the SR has exactly the same item made from plastic right on top too. Obviously the CA looks a bit boxy and I guess plasticcy (?), but….
Lets take a quick look at the intake design of the 2 engines. The SR uses a 4 runner manifold and a 4 port head. Standard garden variety manifold design. The CA on the other hand starts with a 4 runner manifold and then splits into 8, entering the head as an 8 runner manifold. Every second runner is only flowing air under certain circumstances (high air flow). Much more sophisticated design, and much more expensive to produce. I think the theory of this manifold design was to regain some low-down torque missing as a result of the comparatively lumpy camshafts used in the engine.
Some feel that the combustion chamber design of the SR20 is also better than the CA, however I am yet to hear that report from anyone who has actually seen both types of engine in S13 RWD trim for a valid comparison.
There’s more to the head than that too. Looking above the valves, the first thing that grabs you with the SR is that is only has 4 cam lobes per cam, not 8. Doesn’t it have 8 valves per side? Yep, and to get around that Nissan decided to use a rocker arm arrangement to actuate paired valves simultaneously from the single lobe. Not a bad way to do it actually. Certainly cheap to make, but at the cost of increased valve train losses and noise. The CA on the other hand has true 8 lobe cams which act directly on the top of the valves. Minimal components. Maximum revs, and no noise.
The SR has also gone back to the classic timing chain idea, and dropped the tooth belt. My theory here is it has something to do with reduced maintenance costs and less damage when the belts fly from lack of maintenance.
Obviously, the SR is a bigger engine in capacity, it has a relatively long stroke and is ‘over-square’ in design, meaning that the stroke is longer than the width of the bore. Fortunately the stroke to rod length ratio is at such a point that the engine can still rev, but it suffers classically from excess stroke. Sure, they rev out, but not anywhere near as willingly as the little CA with it’s square design (stroke=bore).
Many hi-po USA engines are using oversized pistons from the 300ZX, bringing the stroke/bore relationship back a bit, and providing a cheap source for forged pistons and further increased capacity.
Sure they rev out OK, but not anywhere near the same as a CA. I'm talking stock engines here too, not comparing an SR with aftermarket cams on modified lobe centres, which wouldn’t be a fair comparison now would it!
In retaliation to the plastic tag for the CA, I would now like to refer to the SR as Nissan’s 4 cyl domestic truck engine. The TRUCK MOTOR !!!
So, in conclusion, there is no real winner in this debate - they are not predecessor and successor that is for sure.
I guess the best thing about the SR is that it is almost still in production (although getting very old by other examples) and is well supported by the aftermarket industry. This makes it an excellent choice if you are going to be rebuilding the engine for a specific purpose or inflicting a lot of bolt-ons to it.
There are obviously many more variations between the engines. This writing is simply a small part of it. I will continue this article soon. Any comments appreciated and if anyone has some facts of would like to contribute, please forward them to me lumpy@wasp.net.au
right now im going to school 5 hours away from my project. it has not been cheap by any means but since im doing the whole car in one shot, suspension, brake, and engine swap. and the interior is going to be really spartan. no carpet,sound deadening, one aftermarket racing seat, aftermarket guages, aftermarket heater(lighter and smaller then old a/c set up) no stereo.... nothing that doesn't have to be there. since i have my cobalt(kill me please) for a d/d or my 85gt for a d/d this fiero is purely for fun. it should be pretty quick since it willl be about 1000 pounds less then a stock 350z or g35...
Cool. I wanted to do this same swap too. I think it will work. The wiring will be the hard part. They are putting these in sentras with the six speed trannies. I think it could work in a fiero. When you are finished with this swap please let me know. I wanna do this after my 3800sc. Keep us in the loop. Have fun.
