Anyone out there running their Fiero on Brown Gas (HHO?) This fuel is, supposedly, produced from water and mixed with conventional gas to increase milage up to 50%. There is a lot of information about this stuff on the internet, but I don't know anybody using it. Is there any validity to these claims?
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11:44 AM
PFF
System Bot
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
I wouldn't use brown gas (never heard of it anyways..)
I would inject steam, or a mist of water in your intake, with a regulator of sorts (aloows more water as the engine heats up, and kuts the water flow before the engine kuts off to burn off the water so it dosn't allow rust.
the theory behind it is that, in the heat of the explosion in the cylinder couses the water to evaporate, and expanding, making more energy, but too much, and you'll drown the engine.
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05:30 PM
Electrathon Member
Posts: 5233 From: Gresham, OR USA Registered: Dec 2002
Originally posted by ricksmastermix: There is a lot of information about this stuff on the Internet, but I don't know anybody using it. Is there any validity to these claims?
This is right up there with acetone and cow magnets.
No, it does not work. Yes, there are many uninformed people that swear it does. It is simple physics. Even if you could produce enough of it to do any good (which you can't with one of the systems you are referring to) the energy used to produce it would exceed the benefit of it (the added load on the alternator would exceed the energy released).
The only reason they are so popular in Internet myth form is the fact that they don't work. If they did, then you would see them in production and installed on all engines. As it is, they rely on the misunderstanding of the readers to pass it forward.
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06:50 PM
Electrathon Member
Posts: 5233 From: Gresham, OR USA Registered: Dec 2002
Originally posted by Nick_Black: the theory behind it is that, in the heat of the explosion in the cylinder couses the water to evaporate, and expanding, making more energy, but too much, and you'll drown the engine.
The heat of the combustion would vaporize the water and cool the combustion, taking energy.
Water injection works not by aiding the combustion but by cooling it, allowing you to run higher spark advance without pinging.
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06:54 PM
Nick_Black Member
Posts: 35 From: London, Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 2008
I requested all the scientific info from the company and they sent it to me. They seem very sincere. I haven't had time to go through it yet, though. As w/ all science you can't reject it until you KNOW that you can. They claim they discovered a new type of atom-atom bonding. I think they called this an x-bond. Now, most modern conventional chemists will reject it as crockery or malformed science, but I'm looking into it. I'm rebuilding my car w/ a conventional fuel system right now, but I've been planning for a while to research and develop a home-made hybrid fuel system. (That does not mean "hybrid-electric," just some hybridization of an alternate fuel source w/ gasoline.) My '84 resto thread link is below.
When I launch that project I'll post a thread on it. It looks reasonable, but they're making a massive claim that needs meticulous research and scrutiny.
-Michael
------------------ "A guy know's he's in love when he loses interest in his car for a few days." -Tim Allen
My dad (Masters Applied Science) has had a number off people asking him about this stuff and did some vibration testing for one of these guys (but the testing was on some fluid that was suppose to reduce friction in everything, gears, electric motors, didn't work). Anyway, he is not convinced. Sounds like a conspiracy theory; "Oh, yes the big oil companies know about this stuff, but they don't want anyone using it because they will loss profit."
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03:42 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
If there is any hope in it, is the fact it may work as some catalyst agent, increasing the efficiency of the burn, not so much adding energy to the system.
I requested all the scientific info from the company and they sent it to me. They seem very sincere.
Scammers always do, that's what makes them effective scammers...
quote
Originally posted by Fierology: I haven't had time to go through it yet, though. As w/ all science you can't reject it until you KNOW that you can.
Actually, you can reject this out of hand because it violates all known rules of physics and chemistry, and after half a millenium of scientific research and study those laws are very well known and understood.
quote
Originally posted by Fierology: They claim they discovered a new type of atom-atom bonding. I think they called this an x-bond.
This is just another form of magical Jedi hand-wave. Uneducated people fall for it like babies to shiny things. Scammers rely on that lack of education. Chemistry and physics are very well understood at the level that these kind of reactions take place.
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Originally posted by Fierology: Now, most modern conventional chemists will reject it as crockery or malformed science, but I'm looking into it.
Trained chemists and scientists reject it as crockery because it is crockery. It is not malformed science, it isn't science at all. It's just a bunch of scammers preying on an uneducated populace, relying on their desperation to fleece them of what little money they have left after being fleeced by the petroleum industry.
That's too bad you're getting sucked into their grift, it really is.
JazzMan
[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 06-24-2008).]
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06:18 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
This is right up there with acetone and cow magnets.
No, it does not work. Yes, there are many uninformed people that swear it does. It is simple physics. Even if you could produce enough of it to do any good (which you can't with one of the systems you are referring to) the energy used to produce it would exceed the benefit of it (the added load on the alternator would exceed the energy released).
The only reason they are so popular in Internet myth form is the fact that they don't work. If they did, then you would see them in production and installed on all engines. As it is, they rely on the misunderstanding of the readers to pass it forward.
What he said....it's snake oil. A tax on the uninformed.
Here's my theory going into the whole "hybrid design." Our radiators and exhaust pipes pump out lots of energy that we produce in the combustion chambers. (Btw: I'm not defending the idea; I don't hold a stance on the idea on which this thread inquired.) MY idea is that this energy is viable energy and able to be harnessed. The idea of using water to help the efficiency of our engines and "burning" it in our cylinders isn't outrageous if it's by means of finding a way of harnessing the wasted energy. (note the quotation marks ;-] ) It does not (necessarily) violate the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy. Energy transfers inherantly produce loss, but if pure waste, excess heat in this case, can be used to produce a desired effect, then even a small gain is a gain.
I read a while back of a 6 stroke engine a guy developed. He added two strokes to a conventional 4 stroke engine. He converted the exhaust stroke into a second compression stroke, thereby compressing the hot exhaust gases normally disposed of at this point. Beginning the next stroke he injected water. This water vaporized in the cylinder and produced a second power stroke. He thereby harnessed the heat energy in the cylinder, using it to turn the crankshaft. The next stroke exhausted the combustion gases (largely CO2 and water) and the added water, now vapor. This was a success (I admit allegedly), but he says he had problems with corrosion of the conventional engine materials, that is if I remember right.
Sometimes Outside-the-Box has merit, which is why I haven't yet dismissed this idea. If it is of any consolation, I haven't been suckered by them for I'm not buying anything. I'm simply adding there research, whether supposed or actual, to my own. I'll post my findings.
FOOD FOR THOUGHT: The Law of Conservation of Energy, so long thought infallible, was replaced by the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy. I believe we have merely scraped the surface of science.
-Michael
------------------ "A guy know's he's in love when he loses interest in his car for a few days." -Tim Allen
i geuss the end result of gasoline + air/oxygen +flame (hyrdocarbons + oxygen burnt) equals carbon dioxide and water so i geuss if somehow the fuel is atomized or the water has a higher number of carbon than hydrogen and little oxygen it could be highly volitole and combut easily, not sure i am not a rocket scientist i just own a fiero
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12:16 AM
Myke Member
Posts: 418 From: Strafford, NH, usa Registered: Sep 2003
well HHO sounds like something worth trying to me, i have been looking it up alot and have found several sites. you can see the affects on www.youtube.com just search HHO. a website i found that describes alot but not enough in my thought is www.watterforgas.com and for the rest of the info i have found is here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQSlzxot6sU&NR=1 its for our ECM and O2 sensor it lets us modify our O2 so to speak. so we then do not use as much fuel thus saveing it for latter down the rode. so the combo of the HHO and fuel then increases your fuel economy. the only thing that i have found to not work according to something i read is that u cant hotrod if or it will then just dump gas and not use as much of the HHO gas. so if u want better fuel economy dont hotrod ur car if u have this system on it.
just to think i found all that out with in a 24 hour period. i started reading this thread june 22 at about 11 PM MST. and its now 1 am MST on the 24th. well this is my .02 on the situation. i am thinking of adding this to my 94 nissan Quest mini van once i get a good setup going. i will post more in time or ill just make a new thread so u guys can see and know what is going on. good luck to you guys who are now sounding interested.
For some reason, Fierology is really intent on getting scammed by these guys, so much so that I gave up on trying to save him from being conned. I want him to pay because he deserves it. You, on the other hand, I don't see as a lost cause.
The upshot is that this is a pure scam, exactly the same as the gas pills, fuel line magnets, intake vortex generators, etc. There are a lot of people here smarter, and more importantly, better educated, than me. We all keep telling people about this rip-off, yet a small number of people seem intent in perpetuating it. Don't fall for their scam. I actually believe that Fierology is one of the scammers in this HHO con game/pyramid scheme.
The facts are that the science is well understood at the molecular level where all of these reactions take place. It's settled science, settled fact. HHO is a scam. Completely and totally a ripoff, and in my honest opinion, all of it's perpetuators should be prosecuted for fraud and imprisoned. Seriously. Ten years in a federal penitentiary. Minimum. And all of their assets stripped under RICO, since it is a form of organized crime.
The people who want to believe in this scam should ask themselves a question: Why do you want to believe? Is it desperation from out of control fuel prices? Why are you willing, so willing, to ignore the facts? Do you fall for this scam because you want to, or because you need to?
JazzMan
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09:37 AM
Nick_Black Member
Posts: 35 From: London, Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 2008
Why are you willing, so willing, to ignore the facts? Do you fall for this scam because you want to, or because you need to?
JazzMan
because I like to , I evens tinker with permenent magnet motors, I know why they shouldn't work, but that dosn't stop me from trying I have always had a fasination with the Impossible.
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12:14 PM
Hank is Here Member
Posts: 4446 From: Hershey, Pa Registered: Sep 2000
Originally posted by Fierology: I read a while back of a 6 stroke engine a guy developed. He added two strokes to a conventional 4 stroke engine. He converted the exhaust stroke into a second compression stroke, thereby compressing the hot exhaust gases normally disposed of at this point. Beginning the next stroke he injected water. This water vaporized in the cylinder and produced a second power stroke. He thereby harnessed the heat energy in the cylinder, using it to turn the crankshaft. The next stroke exhausted the combustion gases (largely CO2 and water) and the added water, now vapor. This was a success (I admit allegedly), but he says he had problems with corrosion of the conventional engine materials, that is if I remember right.
After reading this description the phrase "whats old is new again" popped into my head. The way I read it all you are describing is a double expansion engine, cutting edge technology right out of the 1800's. Actually back then double and triple expansion steam eagines were quite common for locomotives and also for ship engines. The WWII liberty ships used a triple expansion steam engine that any foundry (Note: not shipyard) could make, the design was based from an 1880's tramp steamer.
Very cool about the 2bl/3pl expansion engines being used in 1800's. I'm surprised they haven't tried using it on modern cars, w/ the efficiency surge and all.
quote
Originally posted by Hank is Here:
After reading this description the phrase "whats old is new again" popped into my head. The way I read it all you are describing is a double expansion engine, cutting edge technology right out of the 1800's. Actually back then double and triple expansion steam eagines were quite common for locomotives and also for ship engines. The WWII liberty ships used a triple expansion steam engine that any foundry (Note: not shipyard) could make, the design was based from an 1880's tramp steamer.
Jazzman, please dont slander me! Dude, I'm 19, living w/ my parents and fixing my Fiero, contemplating engine efficiency ideas while cranking wrenches. I'm not condoning these HHO/Brown Gas guys, I'm just looking into it. I haven't fallen prey to any scam if I'm not giving them any money. Scammers are fueled by greed and utter disinterest in those they're scamming. And of course I'm not scamming myself. I don't have time for that, too much to do in my garage! And, besides, I'm a man of principle, and scamming is completely contrary to all my principles. Well, enough of that. Perhaps you're joking anyways,
Speaking of time, yeesh! It's late. I've gotta go practice some more welding!!!
-Michael
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04:33 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Originally posted by JazzMan: The upshot is that this is a pure scam, exactly the same as the gas pills, fuel line magnets, intake vortex generators, etc. JazzMan
I've given up as well. I can understand not being a physics wizard, but when you have people with nothing to gain telling you it won't work, they would rather believe the people who have everything to gain. i.e. the scammers.
It makes me want to go into business selling this crap, but I don't want to risk doing 10 years of hard time if the Jazzman law goes into effect.
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07:07 PM
Marvin McInnis Member
Posts: 11599 From: ~ Kansas City, USA Registered: Apr 2002
... you have people with nothing to gain telling you it won't work ...
... and even explaining WHY it won't work!
Whether you call it "wishful thinking" or "denial," the human capacity for self-deception is almost limitless.
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with experimenting as long as you do it properly and honestly. But the time to talk about it is after the experiment, and after you thoroughly understand the results, not before. Only when others can duplicate your experiment, and get essentially the same results as you, is your idea worth publicizing.
JazzMan is 100% correct when he says that the chemistry and physics of ordinary chemical reactions is very well understood. The claim of a "new kind of chemical bonding" should be enough by itself to set off everybody's BS alarms.
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 06-24-2008).]
The problem is, you'll never make enough "browns gas" (stoichiometric mixture of H2 and O2 from electrolysis of water) to do jack **** , much less make any noticeable effect in how your engine runs. You'd have to have a HUGE electrolysis cell, larger than the car, and a sizeable amount of power to split up water to form it. Even if you did somehow, the electrolysis cells are extremely hard on the electrode plates - they corrode to rusty sludge in no time. No electrodes, no electrolysis.
Then assume that you had a miracle cell that made a high flow of "browns gas" that fit in your trunk, complete with water supply, and platinum/rhodium electrode plates. Where does the power come from? Your alternator. Which puts drag on the engine - significantly more drag than any boost the engine could possibly see from the H2/O2. You always lose energy in a system. The main reason hybrid vehicles work, is regenerative braking that can store up energy to propel the car from a stop. Notice that the freeway mileage of a hybrid is seldom greater than a non hybrid vehicle of the same engine. There's no such thing as free energy.
Oh yeah, if a few cubic feet of browns gas ignited in an enclosed cell, you'd have quite an explosion as well. Though it can be sort of cool if done on purpose...
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blue Shift: Then assume that you had a miracle cell that made a high flow of "browns gas" that fit in your trunk, complete with water supply, and platinum/rhodium electrode plates. Where does the power come from? Your alternator. Which puts drag on the engine - significantly more drag than any boost the engine could possibly see from the H2/O2. You always lose energy in a system. The main reason hybrid vehicles work, is regenerative braking that can store up energy to propel the car from a stop. Notice that the freeway mileage of a hybrid is seldom greater than a non hybrid vehicle of the same engine. There's no such thing as free energy. [QUOTE]
This miracle system, powered by HUGE (far bigger than your car could ever carry) solar cells, on a bright sunny day, would work. You would have to use solar yo be able to get free energy.
Unfortionatly a car (or even a big truck) is not large enough to carry this system.
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11:37 PM
PFF
System Bot
Jun 25th, 2008
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
This miracle system, powered by HUGE (far bigger than your car could ever carry) solar cells, on a bright sunny day, would work. You would have to use solar yo be able to get free energy.
Unfortionatly a car (or even a big truck) is not large enough to carry this system.
Even solar panels have issues, apart from the obvious ones like cost and the enormous size needed. There is the concern that solar panels could lead to global warming because they are absorbing solar energy that would normally be reflected back out into space.
Even solar panels have issues, apart from the obvious ones like cost and the enormous size needed. There is the concern that solar panels could lead to global warming because they are absorbing solar energy that would normally be reflected back out into space.
Ah, but they can reduce global warming because they displace carbon-based power generation for 20 years or longer.
JazzMan
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06:12 PM
spark1 Member
Posts: 11159 From: Benton County, OR Registered: Dec 2002
The canopy over the fuel pumps is made up of 16,128 individual photovoltaic cells on 224 panels. The solar panels generate 33 kilowatts of electrical power, enough to provide 30% to 50% of the power that the station requires.
The plants and soil on the living roof absorb rainwater like a sponge, releasing it slowly to the bioswale on the ground. The living roof contains over 4500 individual plants in 5 inches of soil. The layer of plants and soil reflects sunshine and acts as insulation, keeping the interior building space cooler during the summer months. http://www.sqbiofuels.com/retail.htm
Fact: You can't pump your own gas in Oregon but you can buy fireworks!
[This message has been edited by spark1 (edited 06-25-2008).]
