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sanding a Fiero by gjohnson
Started on: 06-13-2008 03:19 PM
Replies: 23
Last post by: 1984fiero on 06-18-2008 08:43 PM
gjohnson
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Report this Post06-13-2008 03:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for gjohnsonClick Here to Email gjohnsonSend a Private Message to gjohnsonDirect Link to This Post

A newbie to body work. What would be a good start as far as prepping a Fiero for paint? I kinda understand sanding using progressively finer grits but how much of each should I start with?

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James Bond 007
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Report this Post06-13-2008 06:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for James Bond 007Send a Private Message to James Bond 007Direct Link to This Post

Sand it by hand,I wrote this a while back,so if anyone has more to add,feel free to do so.
Read here:
Fiero Painting Prep Tips for those preping the car for painting
I had a car painted a Earl Sheib and they did a great job,I chose a nice Dodge viper red.Maco is also a good choice.They both should prep the car for you, thats sanding and primering.But I wanted to make sure it was done right so I sanded the car my self (I didn't primer though).I wanted to make sure the paint wasn't going to peel off.Get your car painted on sale because Maco charges about $550 when it's not on sale.They also charge a little extra for any body work,like cracked paint in the front nose or rear bumper and Im not talking about cracked plastic, just the paint.These hair line cracks will show up again after the car is painted so be sure to fill them your self or have them fill them, includeing any pits you may have (be sure to use the correct bondo,I think it's a flexible plastic.)As for sanding,I would do one piece at a time,(fender,hood,door) unless your energentic and want to do the whole thing in one day.Start by washing the car this will remove surface grit and will help prevent scratches.Buy some wet and dry sand paper (not too course and not too fine you want to avoid scratches) Have a bucket of soapy water(this will help prevent scratches) and a sponge handy,Cut the sand paper (or tear) into squars. Now rub two piece together to break the surface tension (this will reduce scratches, that can show up later)Dip in you bucket of soapy water and start sanding (by hand), the surface should be dull, your Not removeing the paint completely, just dulling the surface and be carefull all the body parts are plastic so dont use a sanding block because you could shave off a corner. Pay close attention to detail like nooks and cranies (the edge of the hood and were the fenders fold over the top and trunk area.) Rinse your sand paper often and hose off the paint residue,this will greately reduce scratches.When your finished wash the car again and you will may see some shiney spots that you missed sand those.You will probubly end up washing the car at least 3 times or more,you can also use an air hose to blow the dust off the car.Make sure you sand all the shiney spots because this will prevent what is called Fish Eye.Thats were you get a small circle due to the paint being unable to cling to the shiney area.If you want it done right do one to two body pieces a day (removal is not necessary).When you take the car in you will have your choice of paints, includeing metal flake or Peral or both. The metal flake and Peral cost extra and so does painting the door jams, but the door jams can be painted by you prior to painting the car.Be sure to get the Clear Coat and UV protection.They also charge extra to sand and repair pealing paint (Total coast Varries, I paid $280).Be sure to remove any Tar around the lower body panels.After all this is done you end up with a $2,000 paint job

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85LAMB
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Report this Post06-14-2008 01:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85LAMBClick Here to Email 85LAMBSend a Private Message to 85LAMBDirect Link to This Post

007
You have some good tips BUT....
From all the paint jobs I have seen from Maaco and Earl Sheib none of them have been even close to a $2000.00 paint job.
The materials they use are VERY cheap and wont last unless the car is always in a garage and not exposed to the sun.
One will get overspray all over the car.
The finish is very poor.

I will give one example,
A friend of mine wanted to paint his Toyota truck which had the clear coat peeling, he told me that he was having he local Maaco do the job, I told him that it will be better to keep his truck the way it is than have them paint it, he told me he was having their top of the line paint with clear coat "build in" in the paint, I told him the are doing a simple single stage paint job. ( meaning no base coat, clear coat ). The paint looked half decent from 15 feet away, but once you got close there was overspray all over and the finish was very poorly.
In less than a year the paint was very dull and he told me he was taking it back, they never did anything for him and within 2 years the paint was so bad that you will rub your hand on it and it would come out like chalk.
His truck looked 100% better before than they way it look with that cheap paint job 2 yrs later.


Ps I have worked w/ cars for a few years from working on body shops to inspecting vehicles after repairs have been completed.
to someone a Maaco paint job might be fine.... to others it could never be an option.

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James Bond 007
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Report this Post06-14-2008 09:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for James Bond 007Send a Private Message to James Bond 007Direct Link to This Post

Yes they can get over spray on parts,if you dont take the time to cover those parts up in the parking lot.My Camaro and Fiero kit car sit in the sun every day and has no signs of fadeing or pealing (this is the first time I parked the Camaro in the shade this summer).If you have the money to spend then expect to pay $5,00 to $10,000 for a profesional Pro Quality paint job.Good Luck.
My camaro,that was painted 5 years ago,by Earl Sheib.The quality is in the prep work.

[This message has been edited by James Bond 007 (edited 06-14-2008).]

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Firefox
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Report this Post06-14-2008 11:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FirefoxSend a Private Message to FirefoxDirect Link to This Post

There are a number of threads here on Pennocks about prepping the car for paint. Do a search in the tech section and see what you can find, but if you are still having trouble there are a number of professional painters on the forum that will give you the proper information you need. Just drop one of us a note and we'll be happy to help out. Rogergarrison and I both are in the business and have offered a lot of advise to other Fiero owners in the past so you should be able to locate some of those posts without too much difficulty, but if you can't locate what you want let us know and we'll help you find what you need.

Mark

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Chris Hodson
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Report this Post06-15-2008 01:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Chris HodsonSend a Private Message to Chris HodsonDirect Link to This Post

DO NOT USE SINGLE STAGE WITH THE WET LoOK HARDENER. That stuff is crap no matter what. Nothing like a good clear coat to protect your color. Unless you are doing it to flip a car and get it sold fast its not worth the 55$ a gal lol. And its true, everything is in the prep work. I would focus on one panel at a time.

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rogergarrison
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Report this Post06-15-2008 08:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonDirect Link to This Post

Ill differ with you Chris. I did my Mercedes SL in single stage acrylic enamel. After it curred, I wet sanded and buffed it like clearcoat. It looked like a sheet of glass and it still looks the same 15 years after I did it. I sold it about 10 years ago and still see the guy who bought it. Its all about prep and post paint steps. I will agree that most single stage enamel jobs do dull out pretty quickly if you just painted and left it as is. Synthetic enamel is what most places use for their budget (like $200) jobs and it is crap.

Maaco shops are not all the same, their independant. One by me only uses PPG products which are the most expensive you can get. I personally use R&M/ BASF, the same as Chip Foose and many other of the famous paint shops.

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project34
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Report this Post06-15-2008 11:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for project34Send a Private Message to project34Direct Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by James Bond 007:

Sand it by hand,I wrote this a while back,so if anyone has more to add,feel free to do so....
Buy some wet and dry sand paper (not too course and not too fine....

I understand and appreciate that advice, but it unfortunately probably wouldn't be particularly useful for one to ask the local hardware store for wet/dry sandpaper that is "not coarse and too fine."

Regardless of what one thinks about the paintwork produced by chains like MAACO, it seems all of you agree that proper sanding beforehand, however laborious it might be, really is key to obtaining a nice paint job.

To that end, can somebody here who is knowledgeable about paint prep share some specific wet/dry grit sandpaper numbers (e.g., 320, 400, 600, 1200, 2000, or whatever) that they'd recommend for the different stages of paint prep?


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Firefox
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Report this Post06-15-2008 01:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FirefoxSend a Private Message to FirefoxDirect Link to This Post

I use dry sandpaper for everything before painting. If I'm stripping something, I'll start off with 80 grit to remove paint down to the original finish or the original primer, then 180 to smooth that out before priming. If I'm just scuffing the old finish to repaint over, as long as the original finish is in good shape, then I'll use 320 dry until the surface is sanded completely. A red 3M Scotchbrite is equivilant to a 320 sanding for tight areas. If I have to use primer, I use 180 before the primer and 320 after. I don't use anything finer than 320 before paint. If you are painting over a non-original finish ( the car has been repainted already once or more ) then I highly suggest the use of a primer sealer before paint.

Fish eyes are caused by a dirty surface....not a smooth unsanded surface. Make sure the car is clean before you sand ( use Dawn dishwashing soap ) and wash everything off. Things like wax and grease and oil cans and WD-40 near the car will mess up your paint and prep job.

Once you have yoru car sanded, keep it clean. Don't drive it or let it sit outside as airbourne particles including temporary airbourne particles ( bird crap ) will actually soak into the sanded finish and mess up your paint job. Dirving will get road gunk into the paint. Clean is a very high priority.

If you are going to use a specific painter, find out what kind of paint they use. As Roger said, some shops use good paint, and there are quite a few that use crap. Quality of paint is what makes a paint job last. You won't get a $2000 paint job without spending $2000, but you can have a very nice daily driver paint job for a lot less. Every shop is different and you need to ask the questions. As for color, prices will vary but not just because of metal flake or pearl in the paint.......colors will vary in cost but a shop may charge a set price without color differential.

Once you find out what the shop wants to use for paint, let us know.

Mark

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rogergarrison
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Report this Post06-15-2008 10:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonDirect Link to This Post

The only real difference between me and Mark is I generally use 320, also dry, on lighter colors. If its a darker color Ill dry sand with 400. I really never like to wet sand anything until Im cutting down the dried new clearcoat. Wet sanding before paint nearly always results in water blowing out of something, even if it was done days before, and it will always come out while your putting on the last clearcoat, I dont care how much you blow it, heat it or wait on it...its Murphys law.

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Firefox
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Report this Post06-15-2008 10:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FirefoxSend a Private Message to FirefoxDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

The only real difference between me and Mark is I generally use 320, also dry, on lighter colors. If its a darker color Ill dry sand with 400.



I should have said 320/400. We're pretty much on the same page with this and there isn't too much difference between the two. I'll use 400 if it's the only thing available, but I buy 320 for my shop. No big deal either way.

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Chris Hodson
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Report this Post06-16-2008 12:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Chris HodsonSend a Private Message to Chris HodsonDirect Link to This Post

It looked very nice until about a year later. I bet you the primer wasn't one of those flex primers.

[This message has been edited by Chris Hodson (edited 06-16-2008).]

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86fierofun
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Report this Post06-16-2008 12:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 86fierofunSend a Private Message to 86fierofunDirect Link to This Post

I know you guys wash the car before you sand, but do you also wash it after sanding (but still before painting)? Or do you just blow the sanding dust off?

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rogergarrison
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Report this Post06-16-2008 04:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonDirect Link to This Post

Ill wash a car before I start on it. After that no water touches it till the new clears cured. I use air to blow out all the dust. If its nice out I might let it set outside for a day or so when its all ready to paint.

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vinny
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Report this Post06-16-2008 10:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for vinnyClick Here to Email vinnySend a Private Message to vinnyDirect Link to This Post

I'm not a painter or anything but I'm a member of Auto body 101 and they strongly recommend against enamal anything these days. Several have talked about single stage urathane as being second only to bc/cc. One of the guys even said that urathane is what clear coat is made of. Like I said I'm not a painter but the guys that recommend it are or were painters. You should check the site out its full of alot of info.

Vinny

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gjohnson
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Report this Post06-16-2008 10:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for gjohnsonClick Here to Email gjohnsonSend a Private Message to gjohnsonDirect Link to This Post

Well I have about 20 hours into sanding. I did one panel at a time. I still have the rear deck lid and wing to do. Man this is a lot of work and I still don't know if I am doing it all correctly. I discovered that my black 1988 Fiero is actually a very pretty blue underneath. I am using 80 grit wet/dry sand paper.
The car is covered in sanding material. Now according to this thread I should blow off the sanding dust before I switch to finer paper like 180 and then 360-400.
I have found several cracks in the lower panels and one in the door. What should I use to "glue" the panels back together?

Thanks for the wealth of info!!

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gjohnson
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Report this Post06-17-2008 10:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for gjohnsonClick Here to Email gjohnsonSend a Private Message to gjohnsonDirect Link to This Post

Searching In the archives about my cracks a lot of members mention a prouct called smc. I guess this a sandable adhesive good for door panels and such. WHere do you get it? NAPA, Wal-mart?

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blackrams
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Report this Post06-17-2008 11:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsDirect Link to This Post

This is a great thread, thanks to Roger and Mark for sharing their hard earned knowledge.

Ron

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Firefox
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Report this Post06-17-2008 05:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FirefoxSend a Private Message to FirefoxDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by gjohnson:

Searching In the archives about my cracks a lot of members mention a prouct called smc. I guess this a sandable adhesive good for door panels and such. WHere do you get it? NAPA, Wal-mart?



If your cracks are in the lower panels, which ones are you referring to? The ground effects or the quarter panels? If you have the option, replace the panels with good ones from a salvage yard. It'll probably take you less time to prep and prime the replacements than to purchase the repair stuff and fix them. If you are looking for a flexible panel repair, 3M makes a repair kit that I use on my bumper covers and other flexible stuff and it's available at NAPA. The SMC you are reffering to is Sheet Moulded Compound. It's a fiberglass type material that the hood, roof, rear clip, and decklid are made of. Not true fiberglass, but similar in construction. There is a specific SMC repair compound just for repairing these panels that works just like Bondo.

 
quote
Originally posted by vinny:

I'm not a painter or anything but I'm a member of Auto body 101 and they strongly recommend against enamal anything these days. Several have talked about single stage urathane as being second only to bc/cc. One of the guys even said that urathane is what clear coat is made of. Like I said I'm not a painter but the guys that recommend it are or were painters. You should check the site out its full of alot of info.



Autobody 101 is a basic information website. There are factual errors in there that keep me from recommending that site to others such as "One of the guys even said that urathane is what clear coat is made of.". Clear coat paint is just that.....clear paint. It can be urethane or lacquer or enamel. It's not just urethane. Those of us that are painters get very concerned that Autobody 101 has so many of these factual errors and when non-painters point other non-painters in that direction it's really doing a great disservice to the guys and gals that really need good information. If you aren't a painter, I'd suggest not offering any painting advise, especially if guys that are painters are involved with the discussion.

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gjohnson
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Report this Post06-17-2008 06:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for gjohnsonClick Here to Email gjohnsonSend a Private Message to gjohnsonDirect Link to This Post

Thanks Firefox. I was referring to the rear bumper facia. It has some deap gouges and a crack or two. I also found a crack on the passenger door way up by the window glass.

Thanks.

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79transam84fiero
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Report this Post06-17-2008 08:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 79transam84fieroSend a Private Message to 79transam84fieroDirect Link to This Post

This is a Maaco paint job $500 including extra coat of clear

I preped car before and wet sanded afterwards, no problems yet...

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

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gjohnson
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Report this Post06-17-2008 10:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for gjohnsonClick Here to Email gjohnsonSend a Private Message to gjohnsonDirect Link to This Post

That is a beautiful TA... Absolutely beautiful!

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lildevil
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Report this Post06-17-2008 10:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lildevilClick Here to visit lildevil's HomePageClick Here to Email lildevilSend a Private Message to lildevilDirect Link to This Post

I'll jus chime in here to say how VERY important it is you use the right primer. Especially on the
SMC panels. It is critical the you use a epoxy primer and not a polyester or urethane primer.
This espeicially important when you've sanded down to the white SMC itself. If you don't,expect
bubbling usually within a year. The epoxy primers will bond to the smc while the others will not.

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1984fiero
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Report this Post06-18-2008 08:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 1984fieroSend a Private Message to 1984fieroDirect Link to This Post

mine didnt have any very deep scratches or paint chipping so i sanded it with 320 the parts where the paint was cracking (hood, roof) i used 180 and primed it and went over it with 320.

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