I have come to hate my car in the past week....read on as to why...

So I bought the car a week ago today, and the guy tells me that the last time any form of tune up was done was 3-4 years ago. No big deal I thought, I can do it all myself. Plugs, wires, filters, thermo, etc. Picked up all the parts, did the air filter and other misc odds and ends that don't really involve tearing things apart. So tonight I started my plugs and wires. Got all the wires on, and what I am guessing to be plugs 2-4 out and new ones in (2nd from left facing front of car to last plug on the right). And wouldn't you know it, I go to take plug 1 out and the ceramic snaps off... All thats left is the 5/8 nut and the threads for the old plug.

Any ideas on how to get the little bastard out (pardon my french) without either A) taking the head off and drilling it, or B) stripping the threads? And when I looked up the gap size for the NGK vpower plugs, it says .060 do not gap. Is this correct? I've seen elsewhere on the forums here that the standard gap size (or recommended I should say) is .045.

Also found what I believe to be causing my gas guzzling. When I took the air cleaner off, the vacuum line running from the EGR to the bottom of the TB was broken at the EGR. And there was another broken line running from the cruise control to the coffee can looking thing underneath it....

Damnit I hate working on cars...lol...If only labor prices weren't close to 100 an hour around here, I could pay someone else to do it for me... Working in this engine bay sucks...

[This message has been edited by Xerces_Blackthorne (edited 06-11-2008).]

Spark plug gap for the 2.5L is 0.060, for the 2.8 it's 0.045. Not sure about getting the broken plug out, I've had good luck so far

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1984 Fiero SE

If only the ceramic broke off, and the rest of the plug is intact, you should be able to unscrew it.

quote Originally posted by pswayne: If only the ceramic broke off, and the rest of the plug is intact, you should be able to unscrew it.

Thats what I thought too... I talked to my g/f dad about it (mechanic for 40 years) and he said that I can get a 1/2" drive ratchet with a 12" extension and a 6 point spark plug socket, spray down the broken plug with PB Blaster, then slowly back it out a it, then tighten it, then back it out, etc. and keep doing that until its completely out. Only problem is he said that I will strip the threads regardless.

Only problem is, I don't have access to sockets or extensions that fit a 1/2" drive ratchet.

quote Originally posted by Xerces_Blackthorne: Only problem is, I don't have access to sockets or extensions that fit a 1/2" drive ratchet.

Many auto parts stores have tool loaner programs or you may have a "Tool Trader" near you.

Lots of PB Blaster and take a pick and clean out the plug well, get the debris out that'll prevent getting full on the plug. I doubt that you'll strip threads, many folks have extracted 20 year old plugs here on the forum, no problem.

Edit,,,, I'm pretty sure that you can skip the 12" extension, probably better off without it.

[This message has been edited by jetman (edited 06-11-2008).]

Well, the advance auto here has a loaner program. Problem is, their tools seem to walk off when they loan them, so they stopped. As for Auto Zone, they have a loaner program also, but no tools to loan.

Not quite sure on a "tool trader." never heard of one before around here...

If I can get a good pic tomorrow after work, I will post it and have you guys evaluate from there... Will also spray down the well with some Gumout carb cleaner and let it dry then spray the PB on it and let it sit...Will have to try and round up an extension and a 1/2" drive plug socket then...

As for using an extension jetman, I had to use a 6" 3/8 drive on the other 3 plugs. Should I at least use a small 3 inch or so on the 1/2" drive just to get the clearence?

[This message has been edited by Xerces_Blackthorne (edited 06-11-2008).]

when you use pb blaster, it helps to tap the plug after you spray to help vibrate more oil into the threads. also make sure you use a six point socket...12 points round things off like its their job.

Not meaning to question a qualified mechanic, but how the HELL is loosening the plug from the hole going to strip the threads? Unless the plug was cross-threaded when it was put in, there should be no damage the the threads when you take it out. I had the same thing happen to me (more than once) and I have NEVER had the threads destroyed by removing a broken plug. Just PB-it, use a 6 point, and take it slow. (Look at the cars in my sig... 88's)

His idea of backing it out a hair and then LIGHTLY tightening it is a real good idea! Kudos to him there. I didn't think of it, but that makes sense due to the issues you have. This will allow the plug to "clean" the thread as you remove the plug. It will take longer, but you wont have to use as much force either. This will help keep it from rounding and broken knuckles (got a few over the years).

Oh, and spend the extra $0.99 and get the grease. You will have less problems getting the new plugs in, and (more so) less problem getting them out later.

Above all else, BE PATIENT!!!!!! It sounds like you might have been putting too much force on the plug when trying to remove it. This caused you to slip, and in the process you snapped the ceramic. I have done this too when I was rushing. Just take a breath.

Broken parts will slow you down. The Fiero is not moving unless you fix it. Therefore there is no reason to rush. Enjoy the time working on your car, it's half the fun (and torment).

Oh, and I saw someone post this, but I want to reiterate; gap for the V6 is .045, the L4 is .060. I am going to guess you have the same car as I have, 88 L4. G-Luck!!

------------------
Myke

PAST: 88 L4 5spd, 84 L4 auto, 88 L4 5spd, 87 L4 auto

Present: 84 L4 4spd, 88 L4 5spd

Future: Tomorrow will tell...

quote Originally posted by Myke: Not meaning to question a qualified mechanic, but how the HELL is loosening the plug from the hole going to strip the threads? Unless the plug was cross-threaded when it was put in, there should be no damage the the threads when you take it out. I had the same thing happen to me (more than once) and I have NEVER had the threads destroyed by removing a broken plug. Just PB-it, use a 6 point, and take it slow. (Look at the cars in my sig... 88's) His idea of backing it out a hair and then LIGHTLY tightening it is a real good idea! Kudos to him there. I didn't think of it, but that makes sense due to the issues you have. This will allow the plug to "clean" the thread as you remove the plug. It will take longer, but you wont have to use as much force either. This will help keep it from rounding and broken knuckles (got a few over the years). Oh, and spend the extra $0.99 and get the grease. You will have less problems getting the new plugs in, and (more so) less problem getting them out later. Above all else, BE PATIENT!!!!!! It sounds like you might have been putting too much force on the plug when trying to remove it. This caused you to slip, and in the process you snapped the ceramic. I have done this too when I was rushing. Just take a breath. Broken parts will slow you down. The Fiero is not moving unless you fix it. Therefore there is no reason to rush. Enjoy the time working on your car, it's half the fun (and torment). Oh, and I saw someone post this, but I want to reiterate; gap for the V6 is .045, the L4 is .060. I am going to guess you have the same car as I have, 88 L4. G-Luck!!

He's a mechanic, he always expects the worse of things in situations like this. His reasoning is that either A) its carbon buildup on the plug that caused it to freeze, B) someone over tightened the plug, or C) whoever changed the plugs last (if ever) cross threaded it. Sokay though, called a tow truck to come get the car and take it to my other mechanic. I am not well enough equipped for this. Can't seem to find my 1/2" drive socket set. and I tried using a bar on a 3/8" drive with both a normal 5/8" 6point socket and a spark plug 5/8" socket.

And I guess while I have everyones attention, where in the hell is the inline fuel filter located? Another on the tune up list.

Also, how do these cars respond to a seafoam treatment? my TBI is gunked up pretty good... And if I seafoam it, do I dump 1/3 of the can in the TB, or do I suck it in through a vacuum line like I would on any other car... When I did the eclipse, it was 1/3 of the can in the gas, 1/3 in the oil, and the rest through the vac line on the back of the intake mani... Figure I will do this before I change my oil, try to get as much crap out as possible.

Use a screwdriver to chisel out any debris around the base of the plug and blow it out with compressed air. Spray PB Blaster around the plug well and let it sit for a day. Once you can get the plug to turn it should come right out, there's no danger really of stripping the threads unless the plug was cross-threaded in the first place, and if it was then you're looking at pulling the head anyway regardless of how you got to this point in the first place.

JazzMan

Stripping threads... maybe he thinks it is an Al head. Its not so the odds of that happening are fairly low.

More like crap and rust as others noted above. Especially on the #1 plug because it is right next to the deck vent. Dig around it to loosen the crap and blow it out as just mentioned. Leave that oil soak. Hit it again later just for good measure. Once the oil has time to work in, the plug should come out. If you keep messing with it right now, you could snap the metal off and then you're in deep doodoo.

Once it is loose, stop. Don't take it all the way out just yet. Stuff some paper towel or rag around it with a small wire or screw driver. That will help pick up more crap and the extra oil before you drop it into the cylinder. Now is the time to try and get out as much trash as you can around it.

After this you'll want to change the plugs every couple years at most just for this kind of reason alone. Current plugs actually run pretty well for several years but #1 will want to rust up no matter what. There probably should be some kind of small deflector on that end of the engine to prevent it but changing plugs is cheap enough.

Also... Many say use Anti Seize on them. You can do this but be careful! The torque spec is for a DRY plug. The anti seize will make it really easy to over tighten the plug. All you need to seal them is a small fraction of a turn once the plug meets the seat on the head. You can easily snap a plug or have it blow out if it is too tight. (In a cast iron head a blowout usually means the plug cracked from the stress of being too tight. An Al head will strip the threads out.)

BTW... You are using standard plugs. Or maybe the Double Platinum from Autolite or AC... These engines have problems with allot of the "performance" and Bosch Platinum types.

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Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top of every forum page...)

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 06-12-2008).]

Well, heres the update:

Wouldn't ya know it, as soon as I get it on the flatbed and get it out to my mechanic (after about 2-3 hours of sitting with Liquid Wrench on it), it comes right out after busting my knuckles on the deck lid. Got out there and my mech wasn't there, so I figured what they hell...Figure I'd give it another shot before I spent money to get it fixed... Came out second try, so I took it back and forth slowly like my g/f dad told me to, and wiped all the crap up that came out with it. Next on the list of tune up stuff is the v belt, fuel filter, CCV breather filter, radiator cap, thermostat, and pcv valve. Also found the hard plastic vacuum line to the EGR broken when the air cleaner was off, and that the EGR doesnt hold a vacuum. So that will be soon too as well as any other vacuum lines that I find dry rotted...

I appreciate the help guys, now how bout a couple more answers to my other questions in my previous post? Any one have any advice on seafoam on these cars? And where is the fuel filter? I tried following my fuel lines (or what looks like them) and it looks like they run somewhere towards the battery side of the car...

EGR will not hold vacuum on these... The internal valves only hold with the combination of exhaust pressure and vacuum.

You could still need one but that test isn't going to help you. You need to pull a vacuum with the engine running, which should stall it or close to that when the valve opens. (The EGR vacuum fitting is ported, not manifold.)

The inline fuel filter is underneath the car. Trace the lines from the tank up and its hard to miss.

Ogre, if I just remove the EGR entirely, install a block off plate with a new gasket, and cap off the vac lines, will that lower or raise my gas mileage? My car is exempt from emissions testing here in PA (the sticker says exempt in big black letters), so I dont really need it.

And has anyone used the Sealed power 88 L4 engine kit with pistons from the Fierostore.com website to rebuild their motor? If so, how well does it work?

[This message has been edited by Xerces_Blackthorne (edited 06-13-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Xerces_Blackthorne: -<snip>- ... it comes right out after busting my knuckles on the deck lid.

Told you to watch the knuckles...

quote ...so I took it back and forth slowly like my g/f dad told me to, and wiped all the crap up that came out with it.

Good!!! you also cleaned up the threads by the repetitive "backing" use dielectric (spelling?) grease putting the new plug in!

quote ... the v belt, fuel filter, CCV breather filter, radiator cap, thermostat, and pcv valve. Also found the hard plastic vacuum line to the EGR broken when the air cleaner was off, and that the EGR doesnt hold a vacuum. So that will be soon too as well as any other vacuum lines that I find dry rotted... I appreciate the help guys, now how bout a couple more answers to my other questions in my previous post? Any one have any advice on seafoam on these cars? And where is the fuel filter? I tried following my fuel lines (or what looks like them) and it looks like they run somewhere towards the battery side of the car...

Fuel filter is either under the car generally behind the heat shield under the cat, or... N/M, you wouldn't have asked if it was on top by the engine... the filter is less than 12 inches from the rear corner of the fuel tank, so get some jack stands and block up your front tires.

***********ABSOLUTELY USE LINE WRENCHES!!!! No joke, if you don't I would bet money you will be replacing a fuel line.***********

Try to get enough room under the car to lie under the middle of the car and work. The rear would have to be raised about 2.5 feet as a minimum for me. You may be different (shorter arms?) and need less room. Keep in mind that you will be under the middle of the car. Fuel filter is mounted under the rear of the passenger cabin. for this reason, I typically raise the whole car off the ground (no I do NOT use jack stands to lift the whole car, and neither should you.) but you can get enough clearance by lifting the rear.

Again, g/l!
Myke

Yup, fuel filter underneath behind passenger seat (have to get under the car to change.

Once you get the old filter off I recommend you buy some good quality anti-seize and brush it on the threads and on the fuel line (under the threaded nut). Keep the anti-seize out of the fuel line... don't want it in your gas. Once you get it together then coat everything in anti-seize. This will make it much easier in the future to work on it.

I wouldn't recommend removing the EGR, it won't get you better gas mileage.

Well, EGR is shot. looks like I will be adding that to the list of tune up parts... will have to get some prices today on one.

How about seafoam? should I just dump a 1/3 of the can in the TB and slowly open the throttle while its running to get it in there? Or should I take it in through a vac line? Not sure about these cars, but on my eclipse I took it in through the vac line off the intake manifold to the master cylinder.

quote Originally posted by Myke Told you to watch the knuckles...

Thanks for the warning there Myke, probably would have helped if I would have listened lol... And maybe if the socket wouldn't have slipped too...

[This message has been edited by Xerces_Blackthorne (edited 06-13-2008).]

oh, and while I am thinking of it.....

Many people are lazy when they replace these, and the side going to the tank is typically never turned. You might have to twist the fuel filter to get it out. If this is the case, be VERY careful trying to loosen the fitting on that side. On very RARE occasions, I have found the outlet side was stuck.

Try both sides, and work with the easier of the two if they seem stuck. Put a stopper in the fuel line once it is apart, and hit it with PB Blaster or something like that. Work the other side lose carefully and listen to jaskispyder and the anti-seize. You will thank him next time you change the filter!

So you pushed up the EGR diaphragm... and what happened?

Can't help with the Seafoam. Never used it.

BTW, always best to pull the wrench.... pushing leads to split knuckles..

Keep us posted!

Myke

well, i pushed up on the EGR and the diaphram stuck for a few seconds then decided to slowly move back out. this was with the line both on (made a backwoods adapter out of reduced vac line and plastic tubing, just slid it into the fittings) and off, with my finger over the nipple on the egr...

Also did a half assed (or i would suppose) seafoaming on it by dumping some in the tb and starting the car. gotta love the thick smoke from it, filled the car with a white haze lol. also, some in the gas tank and some in the oil. Oil change is this weekend, so thats no problem. Got a good wix filter for 4 bux (it beats 30 from advance, etc for an AC Delco) from the local garage (auto zone, etc only had the ones for the V6, the screw on type filters)...

Anyone know what size the cruise control vac lines are? the side of the hoses says 7/32, so I am guessing this is the diameter? Also need to know what diameter of the evap can vac lines. one looks like either 1/4" or 3/8", the others look about like 5/32" or 7/32".

And has anyone run the seafoam trans treatment in their auto trans before a power flush?

So many things to do, so little time....

and while I am thinking of it, how hard is it to replace the turn signal/cruise control stalk? And will the stalk from an 89 firebird work?

Well, heres the update:

Chalk up another on the list of problems. Took the car to get tires on it, and low and behold the front brakes are shot....needs new pads, rotors, and at least one caliper...

Not to mention that since the new tires were put on yesterday, the car shakes at highway speeds (around 65 mph or so)...wasn't like this with the old tires, so I am thinking that the new ones may either be out of balance, or have a bad belt, etc. The tires were used when I bought em, since I just need something to hold me over til I get rims and tires...

Looks like it may be time for a big brake upgrade... anyone know what I can get away with using the stock 14" mags until I get my 16" rims?

There is one or two upgrades that'll fit under your 14-inch rims, I believe that West Coast Fiero has a package and/or you could do a search on the forum. You will have a multitude of options if you wait until you get your larger rims. If you need something in the mean time you can always check out the Mall.

[This message has been edited by jetman (edited 06-15-2008).]

The 88 has excellent brakes if an 88 just bring up to very good condition use top quality pads
NEVER NEVER NEVER, flush any automatic transmission this has ruined many an auto transmission..never power flush or what ever it is called
If you have a tranny problem(car type,not panty boy type) and a qualified transmission tech tells you a flush is better than a rebuild OK,,The fiero auto T125 is one of fiero best features ,,an absolutely great transmission,, the manuals are crapola troublesome..
Just change trans fluid and filter in the next year,you can remove transmission lines and clean but normally a T125 just needs 10 year fluid change
take TBI off and clean it chances are it is just carboned up.. soak the pintle with liquid wrench or PB BLASTER,,you can soak the bottom in cleaner ,, spray TBI with carb injector cleaner pay close attention to IAC hole
never put sea foam in oil never loosen up the old crap in the oil pan remove and clean pan !!
buy a service manual or ask previous owner if he has one ,, he no longer needs (unless fiero wacko)
Haynes for novice Chilton or factory for motor gear heads
on the upper threads of the spark plugs place a small amount of anti sieze on the top 1/4 threads(this is where rust starts)
The EGR probably just needs to be cleaned ,do not tap on it as mentioned in manual,if you do tap ,,use wood ,it is possible you just need to clean ,,miracles do happen(I have a super smoking hot G/F) all is revealed when you eyeball bottom of pintle, you can soak the bottom of the EGR in a carb cleaner/injector bath
Buy 1/2 inch breaker bar and 1/2 to 3/8 adapter ,check out pawn shops(maybe they have my stolen tools) for good value on tool purchase
Learning mechanical skills will help you with all your cars in life and save you some dinero you can spend on gambleing,,drinking ,, loose women,,foolish behavior and loose fittin shoes

[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 06-15-2008).]

Sorry it's late maybe...

Don't run it w/o EGR. It likely won't improve fuel economy. It will likely kill it as the engine is very prone to knock w/o it. GM has the ignitions on these pushed about as far as you can. Actually a little too far as they had to reprogram the PROM to pull it back a hair and stop part throttle knock on 87-88 L4. (There's a note about it in my cave. The DIS article I think. It tends to only show up under certain conditions so not all of them show the problem.)

The part number for the EGR is in my cave. You will need that number to select the correct "washer" if you install a universal valve. You must stake the washer! The is in the emissions stuff...

quote Originally posted by jetman: ,,, I'm pretty sure that you can skip the 12" extension, probably better off without it.

Actually, the extension is a good idea. While you are putting force on the ratchet, the extension will help keep the socket straight and seated solidly on the plug remains.

I tried the egr thing and my car would not run. I installed a 195 thermostat and it seems to run good. I have gotten 38.5 doing 65 on trips. Listen to the Ogre! Standard plugs work good on DIS. I have done just about everything to the engine. I have found GM parts though more expensive last longer.

S Williams
GR, MI

Everything is now taken care of except new front rotors/pads/calipers and the fuel filter/serpentine belt/suspension...hopefully next paycheck I can do the brake job and suspension/filter while its on the lift. Provided my cousins don't charge me an arm and a leg for the labor(more worried about the parts store prices for everything actually)..

Gotta love cheap labor :-D hehe spent $30 to get a cv axle replaced on my eclipse and it took 3 hours (damn nut wouldn't go back on the axle shaft)

Edit: also works out because they know the fieros... they have a gold 86 SE sitting in front of the shop :-D

[This message has been edited by Xerces_Blackthorne (edited 06-16-2008).]