so, starting at the root of the problem My caliper locked on the driver rear heated up and blew the brake hose /caught it on fire I replaced the hose and the caliper I bled the brake and went for a ride i have no brakes untill the pedal is almost fully depressed So, i figured mabey some air got in the driver rear tried bleeding that one and broke the bleeder off so I ordered a new driver rear caliper Still the same issue after bleeding the brakes
im using prestone dot 3 synthetic fluid i have carbon metallic pads and drilled slotted rotors the driver rear pad is worn alot from the locking but still has meat on it the rear brakes look like they have adjusted properly
any ideas guys? i need this car ready for autocross saturday
[This message has been edited by antinull.com (edited 05-20-2008).]
yeah we bled the rears the fronts shouldnt need bleeding as they never went low i ordered new front calipers and a master cylinder (calipers incase i break anouther bleeder lol) my race is saturday and this is driving me nuts
First, the brake system can be a mother to bleed on these cars. I just did my entire brake system last year. I still have a pedal that's a little low. My opinion is that the system will never be completely bleed without a pressure bleeder. But, you may have some other things going on. Such as, if the rear brakes aren't adjusted properly. If there is too much space between the pads and rotor all your pedal travel is being used to move the pistons instead of building pressure. If this is the case you will never build enough pressure for a strong pedal.
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09:48 PM
chrishahn87 Member
Posts: 1584 From: East Berlin, Pa - USA Registered: Dec 2004
I know it sounds stupid, but check the brake hoses and make sure that they are installed correctly. (not really sure how to explain this...) Make sure that the "square" part of the hose is mounted properly and not "cocked" to one side. I had this problem once, and fluid was actually leaking out. You should be able to check for fluid leaking out there.
Copper washers on both sides of the "square" part of the hose that bolts to the caliper.
i have one ss line and the rest are rubber we made sure there were no leaks after bleeding the rear pads are adjusted with about 1mm between them and the rotor and bite good but again the peddle goes almost to the floor before any braking happens now when my brake hose blew i hit the floor with the pedle a few times trying to get the car home im thinking that did the damage ogre's cave talks about to the master cylinder
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10:09 PM
May 21st, 2008
Indiana_resto_guy Member
Posts: 7158 From: Shelbyville, IN USA Registered: Jul 2000
Assuming you've got all the air out... the MC is bad. Or you have too much pad clearance someplace. See my cave...
It is common to kill an MC when pedal bleeding a car. This happens because you push the pedal farther than it would normally go and trash/damage in the MC kills one or more seals. You can even jam the front piston that way. What it means is that the MC was in bad shape before you started. The overtravel just exposed the weakness.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
yeah, i read your article which is why i came up with that its probably the stock mc
In 2005 the car was purchased by its (assumed) third owner. he Replaced the Rear Calipers which kills me i broke a bleeder and toasted a caliper and had to replace both AFTER 2 YEARS damn i wish i had the warranty
yeah, i read your article which is why i came up with that its probably the stock mc
In 2005 the car was purchased by its (assumed) third owner. he Replaced the Rear Calipers which kills me i broke a bleeder and toasted a caliper and had to replace both AFTER 2 YEARS damn i wish i had the warranty
got my master cylinder today how do i go about replacing this thing?
pop off the resevoir - just pushes on/off undo the lines undo the 1 screw holding it steady undo the 2 nuts holding to the brake booster remove MC install new MC install 2 nuts to brake booster install 1 screw to hold steady install bleeder kit install & fill resevoir run bleeder hoses into resvoir - make steady, tie strap, something gently slowly pump brakes - make sure no splashes - this stuff eats any & all paint it hits. when it moves only fluid, remove bleeder kit, and install lines bleeder all calipers.
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10:41 AM
Electrathon Member
Posts: 5233 From: Gresham, OR USA Registered: Dec 2002
the rear pads are adjusted with about 1mm between them and the rotor and bite good but again the peddle goes almost to the floor before any braking happens now when my brake hose blew i hit the floor with the pedle a few times trying to get the car home im thinking that did the damage ogre's cave talks about to the master cylinder
This sounds like your problem. How far does the park brake lever move on the caliper? If it moves the total distance you need to tighten up the adjustment more. They should self adjust, but most of the rebuilds you get will have failed adjusters in the postons. You do not want clearance between the pads and the rotors.
I have bled far to many brake systems to count (likely in the thousands) and to date I have never seen a master cylinder fail from "overstroking" it. I understand the theory, just have never seen it happen.
The pads should drag the rotors just slightly. If there is any clearance between pads and rotor, the master cylinder has to take up that clearance first before it will build any pressure to actually stop the car.
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10:43 PM
chrishahn87 Member
Posts: 1584 From: East Berlin, Pa - USA Registered: Dec 2004
I hate to ask, becuase it sounds stupid, but can someone tell me HOW to adjust the rear rotors?
I have changed brakes front and rear on Fieros atleast a dozen or more times, and never had to "adjust" the rear calipers (except for "turning in" the pistons).
The last fiero that I worked on (replaced pads in the rear) seems to have this same problem. Doesnt have good pressure till the pedal is most of the way down - and I think that the rear calipers could need to be "adjusted"
Sorry to interrupt the thread, but it seems on topic
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11:10 PM
joesfiero Member
Posts: 2181 From: North Port,FL,USA Registered: Jan 2008
1.Lets start at the beginning, your master cylinder is the most intelligent guess in this situation, I have seen them do what ogre described. your pedal never travels that far so debris collects toward the front/back whatever you want to call it, and you scrape the soft seal against all that and it tears it. Otherwise, the piston gets stuck. I was only a mechanic for 6 years, worked on hot rods for 10, and have seen this a half a dozen times.
2.You say you have 1 steel line and the rest rubber. The brake system obviously works with line pressure, and different types of hoses/lines react to pressure in different ways. If the MC thing doesnt actually fix it all the way, I would look at the lines. It is possible the difference in pressures are screwing up the whole system.
3.Please for the love of humanity bench bleed the new master cylinder before installing it. You are basically preloading it off the car to make sure there is no air in the MC itself before it goes on the car. There is plenty of literature about this on the internet if you need more assistance in doing so.
4.Try to remove as much of the old fluid as possible since it has gotten so hot. DOT 3 is not meant to get that hot at all. It will be better in the long run.
I hate to ask, becuase it sounds stupid, but can someone tell me HOW to adjust the rear rotors?
I have changed brakes front and rear on Fieros atleast a dozen or more times, and never had to "adjust" the rear calipers (except for "turning in" the pistons).
The last fiero that I worked on (replaced pads in the rear) seems to have this same problem. Doesnt have good pressure till the pedal is most of the way down - and I think that the rear calipers could need to be "adjusted"
Sorry to interrupt the thread, but it seems on topic
The rear calipers adjust automatically when you engage the park brake. If your park brake is not working correctly, the back brakes will not ratchet out and take up any slack. If your park brake is working correctly but the back brakes still aren't automatically adjusting, then there is something wrong with the calipers, even if they are new/rebuilt.
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11:25 PM
May 23rd, 2008
Electrathon Member
Posts: 5233 From: Gresham, OR USA Registered: Dec 2002
I hate to ask, becuase it sounds stupid, but can someone tell me HOW to adjust the rear rotors?
First off, they SHOULD adjust when you use the park brake. They often times (usually) don't. If you can move the park brake lever (the one on the caliper) all the way then it is out of adjustment. If the adjuster is not working, take the nut off the adguster and pull it off. Turn the center pivot (adjuster) till the pads tighten dowm. Reinstall the adjuster lever.
okay, i will try adjusting the rear calipers so they should be right on the rotors? i though i needed a spacer or something
if that is no go the master cylinder gets swapped please tell me how to bench bleed it... im a complete noob when it comes to brake systems i know i could use new hoses all around and will probably put them on shortly a forum member is sending me a rear SS line so i will have ss on both rears atleast
this all needs to get done tomorow if it doesnt ill miss my autocross school./race
[This message has been edited by antinull.com (edited 05-23-2008).]
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12:27 AM
Electrathon Member
Posts: 5233 From: Gresham, OR USA Registered: Dec 2002
okay, i will try adjusting the rear calipers if that is no go the master cylinder gets swapped please tell me how to bench bleed it... im a complete noob when it comes to brake systems i know i could use new hoses all around and will probably put them on shortly a forum member is sending me a rear SS line so i will have ss on both rears atleast
The new master cylinder will come with plugs. Leave them in and add fluid. Push the plunger in on the master cyl a little bit, you will see air bubbles (the master is being held in a vise). Keep pushing the plunger in and out slowly. When the bubbles stop it is ready to put on. But, you will not need to do this once you have adjusted your breaks. One of the primary reasons people complain about the crappy Fiero brakes is because thier rear brakes do not work because they are out of adjustment. A quick way to tell if your rear brakes are out of adjustment is if the park brakes does not work or if it pulls all the way up.
okay, im going to adjust the rear brakes first then im going to bench bleed the cylinder and install it BTW it came with instructions and plugs (that were not installed) i actually do not have a vise any suggestions? also my jack broke so i get to use the fun crank one
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12:43 AM
Electrathon Member
Posts: 5233 From: Gresham, OR USA Registered: Dec 2002
i tried the adjustment proceedure found on ogre's cave it didnt make them any tighter (used a thin shim and pumped them) they seem adjusted properly and after 10* pull of ebrake the pads are clamped but not really hard
i can clamp it to my bench i guess i have some of those ratchet clamps lol
[This message has been edited by antinull.com (edited 05-23-2008).]
anything else i should know before starting the master cylinder? Do i need to bleed the entire system>?
yes - you will need to bleed the whole system when done. and - it a good long bleed - because the air bubbles will be at the very beginning of the brake line. at least 5oz of fluid (maybe 10-15 bleeds) should go thru the longest - Left Rear line. since the rears share the line all the way back - the right rear is a quickie after that. maybe 2-3 bleeds. then the right front - about 2oz, and the left front - another quickie.
Originally posted by antinull.com: after 10* pull of ebrake the pads are clamped but not really hard
This statement tell me that they are not adjusted. If you pull the park brake that far and the brake is not clamped very hard there is no chance in the world that it would stop a moving car. How far does the lever move on either (both) levers on the calipers? If it moves all the way on either side they are loose and need to be adjusted. The procedure in ogers cave will likely not work easily if your adjusters are not working in the calipers. The way I listed will work either way. It also only takes a few minutes a side too.
okay, but your talking about binding the pads to the rotors which is what got me into this mess in the first place also ten degres of pulling sets the pads to the rotors pulling more makes them set harder if i set them and try to drive the car doesnt move
[This message has been edited by antinull.com (edited 05-23-2008).]
Okay the pads after using ogres adjustment are infact closer to the caliper i can see light if i move the caliper to one side hard but it is not even 1mm of a gap so i think that is set im going to run the car and try the brakes now
[This message has been edited by antinull.com (edited 05-23-2008).]
okay, but your talking about binding the pads to the rotors which is what got me into this mess in the first place
If I remember correctly, what started this was a colapsed brake line. Applied brakes will cause very bad issues (you will burn stuff up). Loose brakes will cause a very low pedal and hard stopping. Zero clearance brakes will stop the car and not create a low pedal problem. A bad master cylinder will cause a pedal that sinks when it is held applied, not a low pedal. Go ahead and change the cylinder so you will be happy, then fix the rear brake adjustment so the car will stop. You can even do it as you are bleeding the brakes and then come back on here saying the master fixed everything so you can save face. Just fix the rear brakes one way or the other so the car is safe.
You stated 10 degrees of movement, I am assuming that you did not check at the caliper? just at the handle? If so, you need to check at the caliper and make sure that there is not full movement of EITHER SIDE of the park lever. If there is, simply remove it and adjust the pivot. It will NOT bind the brakes because you will have to loosen it just a little bit to reinstall the adjusters (and yes, they must be reinstalled).
Think back when this issue started, when you replaced the caliper. The complaint you have is of a low pedal which is almost always caused by an unadjusted rear caliper. My head is getting sore from hitting it on the wall, but I am leaving for the weekend.
i adjusted them the way you said and the way ogre said i dont understand what your saying i did wrong i put the master cylinder on and have a little more breaking now but still soft as hell what EXACTLY am i suposed to do here? i was saying that AFTER 10 degres the pads bind and the arm pulls all the way up
heres the thing i adjusted the rears to the point that they scrape and i still have low pedal even with the new master cylinder so seriously what is going on?
