Today started out really good and ended in a way i never thought it would.

I got up and drove my car to work, First time driving it from my own house to work and i had time b4 i started work to was it, and its the first time ever to be washed in about 15 years so it was a really good day. i got home from work and got ready to go out to dinner with familly get .1 miles from home and kerpop clank clank . i was like OMG I JUST THREW A ROD!!!

so now the question is can i pull the crank out w/o pulling the block out on an 84 2.5 with the m19 4spd tranny? cuz i need to rebuild it.

i havent been able to pull the oil pan off yet to look but there is defiantly pan damage. i saw that much but cant tell if any block damage yet will look at later this week, back to the mini van i go

im soo depressed i was given this car 5-6 years ago and it wasnt running so i rebuilt it and so i finally got it running and well u know what happend. any tips on making this process go by quicker will be much help.

anything will help.

Thanks Steven.

Wow, that really turned into a bad day, sorry to hear about that. I really think you'll have to pull the engine, some folks have lowered the rear of cradle to access timing gears but sounds like you're talking about replacing a crank through the wheel well, not easy at all. I am starting my cradle drop today, I will be sure to make a note for you as how this looks and report back.

I will say this, pre-owned 4-cylinder Duke engines are plentifull, with a matching ECM, I believe you could use most any year duke. I have used www.car-parts.com as a search feature to scout for engines, and parts, for what it's worth. You know, those stupid 84 dukes had a nasty habit of snapping rods through the block, did you want to take the risk again with rebuilding the 84?

I'm sure that you'll get others to chime in here for you with exact information on crank replacement in the vehicle.

Once again, I am so sorry to hear of your misfortune.

------------------
jetman
Silver 86 SE 2M6 4-speed, with "check wallet light"
Now fortified with 8 essential slices of bacon goodness

just out of curiosity can i take and drop in a V6 without having to do any modifications?

if i do what would i need to do? is the tranny compatible? M19 4spd,

should i get tranny that comes with V6? about how much dose one cost? ie for both engine and tranny.

quote Originally posted by jetman: I am starting my cradle drop today, I will be sure to make a note for you as how this looks and report back. You know, those stupid 84 dukes had a nasty habit of snapping rods through the block, did you want to take the risk again with rebuilding the 84?

Thank you Jetman ill look and see what i can come up with on the link, and i dont really want to rebuild to find out its gonna throw another rod.

Thanks,
Steven

I would go for an engine swap (like a newer Camaro motor).I dont know what the cost of a rebuilt crank would be,but Im guessing $200,for that price you might as well go for the engine swap (if this is an automatic,get the tranney too).Remember it's only a mattery of time befor the tranney or clutch goes too (thats why I highley recomend the engine swap).Sorrey I cant answer your question about droping in a V6 without having to do any modifications.But the Camaro swap is supposed to be,one of the easyer swaps.Just one little problem and I think the starter needs to be moved to the other side (I dont see why it can't be left where its at now (on the opisite side),but you should definateley have someone who knows what he's doing,so he can drill and tap the holes for the new starter location for you).
For further reading read here:
http://www.fierofocus.com/a...0Collins%2012-00.htm

[This message has been edited by James Bond 007 (edited 05-17-2008).]

quote Originally posted by My84: just out of curiosity can i take and drop in a V6 without having to do any modifications? if i do what would i need to do? is the tranny compatible? M19 4spd, should i get tranny that comes with V6? about how much dose one cost? ie for both engine and tranny.

I looked into this when my 84 spun a rod bearing December 30th, 2005, what a shitty day. Unfortunately it's not a direct swap. The 84's have different wiring than other years. The biggest problem is the location of the C500 connector, which has to be moved from the firewall to over by the battery. You almost need an entire donor car to do the swap, which was one of the reasons I decided to just put another 2.5L in mine.

If you use a used engine, get an 85 or 86, basically the same but won't have the defective rods. 87 engines use DIS, and 88's have this weird oil system. You'll need a VIN R engine, I think they only came in Fieros.

------------------

1984 Fiero SE

I think the 84 cradle doesn't have the tab or plate for the V6 motor mount. It doesn't look too difficult to weld one on, but I don't weld. If you're thinking of a swap, maybe a Quad4 would be a better option?? You would need the trans. for that. If you do the V6, it'll bolt to your trans. and work, but the case on 84s is weaker than later 4 speeds. The gear ratio is also gonna make a big difference. I think yours has a 4.10 : 1 final drive (highway won't be confortable). V6 4 speeds had 3.65:1 final drive (I think). Makes rpms lower on highway. Hope this info helps you out a little. And I am sorry for your bad day.
John

ok thanks for your input i have a guy that has a 2.5 and it is running, i can get it for 150 so i think im just gonna go that rout, im gonna swap out sensors and maybe the head up and just use the block im gonna get. hope the block is the same, i was told they are but not sure, but ill find out what happens when i get the other engine in a week or 2. i am gonna take pics of my crank case when i get a chance to go pull my Oil Pan and ill post them on here so u guys can see what kinda damage i did. and thanks for your replies. they do help so i might get a Quad 4 eventually or maybe even the vet engine but thats future projects.

Thanks Steven

quote Originally posted by My84: ok thanks for your input i have a guy that has a 2.5 and it is running, i can get it for 150 so i think im just gonna go that rout, im gonna swap out sensors and maybe the head up and just use the block im gonna get. hope the block is the same, i was told they are but not sure, but ill find out what happens when i get the other engine in a week or 2.

Be sure to check out theogre's cave, he has very good information on the Duke engines.
https://www.fiero.nl/ogre

well i had a chance to get under and look but just notice dmg to oil pan didnt see anything wrong with block ( yet ).

I pulled my valve cover off and 1 rocker arm for my # 1 cylinder and both for my #2 cylinder are just sitting there not on my valve or push rod, i didnt think to pull the rods and have a look at them when i was looking.

so i might have alot more problems that i thought, but not sure, i do have an engine that is running that i could get for 150 just hope it bolts up to my tranny. if i dont have any problems with my head i might just replace my valves
and have head looked at to make sure its ok. im thinking of useing all my topend on new engine but gatta see if my head fits on it too. just hope i can get it all done in less than a month,

if anyones has input about dmg to valves or under block dmg please post and tell me what to look for when i pull my bad engine and have a look,

Thanks, Steven

Did the rocker bolts break or did the nuts just back out? Your fix might be as simple as getting new nuts and torquing them down to spec.

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 07-25-2008).]

i threw rods too, so i think i munched some valves too but not sure yet.

but to answer your question no they didnt break and i dont know if they backed offi just looked and didnt do anything major on checking it out.

Thanks tho,

Steven

quote Originally posted by avengador1: Did the rocker bolts break or did the nuts just back out? You fix might be as simple as getting new nuts and torquing them down to spec.

Yes, absolutely try the simple route first.

If the pushrods poped out, then the valves would just slam shut. At any rate, the 2.5 isnt an interferance motor anyway, so there is no way you could have damaged the valves.

From what you're saying, it almost sounds like you had a valve train issue, are you positive the pan is damaged from a rod snapping? The noise you heard could have just been the valves. Then again, I dont know if the cam is in a common area with the crank in the 2.5, I suppose a snapped rod could have spun around and taken out the pushrods. I would check for sure before writing anything off though. Make sure you actually have a connecting rod problem.

Tossing a rod wouldnt neccessarially damage the crank, actually, it shouldnt hurt it at all unless the bearing siezed and thats what snapped the rod. At any rate, there is no practical way to change the crank in the car, you have to take off the tranny to get to the flywheel bolts, and then you would have to support it, and have the timing cover off, which means the front mount off, it just goes from there. It would be a lot faster and easier just to drop the cradle, rather than spend a whole day screwing around with it. And dont just pull the engine, trust me, it is faster to drop the cradle than it is to take the time to try and wiggle the engine out. There are only a couple more things to remove and it saves you a lot of hassle.

Repairing rod-related problems involves pulling the crank out from below and the pistons out from above so basically you'd have to dismantle the engine completely in the car and have just a block suspended in the engine bay disconnected from the transmission. I can't see any way to do that in the car that wouldn't be a hundred times harder than doing it on an engine stand.

If you get another engine it needs to be from '86 back as the '87 up engines don't have a provision for a distributor (they're DIS). The '86 is good because it has roller lifters.

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: are you positive the pan is damaged from a rod snapping?

yes thats how my oil got all over the street :/ when it happened. i jacked it up on to stands last night and had a look. there is 3 spots in the oil pan with dmg and its all round the #1 and #2 cylinders.

see now my thought on the whole thing is that i threw a rod and piston was up top and evertying else went as it was appart from rod breaking, valves came down bent or tweaked push rod or valve ( this is my guess, havent looked yet ) threw rocker arm off thus the reason there loose, but im not sure. just a guess untill i can get over and work on it,


Thanks
Steven

here a a couple of Oil Pan Shots. Tell me what u think.







Both of those are looking toward the passenger side of the car, or toward the #1 cylender.


If anyone has a clue what might have gone wrong post here.

tomorrow ill post pics of what it looks like inside, gonna make comments to those pics.

let the guessing game begin.

Thanks Steven

quote Originally posted by My84: here a a couple of Oil Pan Shots. Tell me what u think. Both of those are looking toward the passenger side of the car, or toward the #1 cylender. If anyone has a clue what might have gone wrong post here. tomorrow ill post pics of what it looks like inside, gonna make comments to those pics. let the guessing game begin. Thanks Steven

Hate it say it dude, but I'm gonna bet that you're looking at fatal engine damage... sorry. Looks to me like a rod went and hammered the pan, which probably means the block/bore may be damaged beyond repair as well.

quote Originally posted by Blue Shift: Looks to me like a rod went and hammered the pan, which probably means the block/bore may be damaged beyond repair as well.

Nope sry guess again.

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ: If you use a used engine, get an 85 or 86, basically the same but won't have the defective rods. 87 engines use DIS, and 88's have this weird oil system. You'll need a VIN R engine, I think they only came in Fieros.

85 and 86 engines are the way to go. They have roller lifters in addition to being free of the defective rods. Fortunately though, VIN R engines came in lots of applications that are compatible such as (but not limited to):
Buick Century/Skylark
Chevrolet Citation/Celebrity
Olds Omega/Ciera
Pontiac Phoenix/6000/Fiero

The 84-86 models of any of these vehicles with a 2.5 will yield a useable powerplant.
The S10 and Firebird/Camaro 2.5 blocks will not work because they lack the side-mount waterpump provision of the FWD engines.
...and yes I know that the X bodies were not made after 85, btw.

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: Intact rod and wrist pin, but with nothing attached to it? Did your engine do that thing where the piston shatters? That would kinda explain valvetrain damage (or rather the valvetrain damage would explain the piston damage)

nope sorry try again. :P

quote 85 and 86 engines are the way to go. They have roller lifters in addition to being free of the defective rods.

well if i had access to one here in billings Mt. i would but my boss has an 83 Buick skylark that he used for autocross and said the engine is good with 80k-90k miles on it and i can have it for 150. so im gonna go that rout till i can get a 3800 sc or a 350 4bolt main and build it up.

i do have a cam that used roller lifters so im gonna take it to a machine shop and have them look it over then ill buy a set of roller lifters and put them in, do i need to have special rockers, springs, and valves for that or are those the same?

Roller valvetrain won't work in the pre-roller motors, the block machining is totally different and can't be modified to work.

JazzMan

Here's the list of the differences between the engines:

http://ironduke7.tripod.com/dukevariations.htm

well here are the other pics i promised.

KEY
Red arrow = damaged / missing parts
Yellow arrow = front of engine

so here im missing my #2 main cap and bolts


and here still missing main cap and now missing/ broken cam?


and here still missing #2 main cam but found cam yet broken in 3 spots.


and here i found main cap plus extras i wasn't expecting.


extras are bent pushrods, lifters, main cap bolts, 1 looks like new but tossed out a window ( ie, minor dmg) main cap is in 2 pieces? dont ask how i dont know. and main bearings. one in good condition and other 1/2 way flat kinda looks like a sled.

now everyone can say OMG or laugh or do both.

I did. lol

Thanks Steven

So sorry to read about your Iron Duke demise. I may have a solution for you I am with in days of pulling the entire power train out of my 85 Fiero Se to install this.




So I have a clean no rust cradle with a 2.8 V6 with less than 15000 on a complete rebuild a 5 speed Isusu tranny (bad 5th gear) and shifter with cables, complete wiring harness and ECM, complete exhaust with the exhaust manifolds rewelded and hogged out, and the entire rear suspension that I do not need anymore.
I live in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho which about 300 miles from you.
If you are interested contact me either PM of email me at sokolja@adelphia.net.

By the way the picture is of my 96 3.4 DOHC on an 88 cradle with a Beratta Getrag tranny that I am installing

Joe Sokol

------------------
85 SE Daily driver with a 3.4 DOHC build underway
88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby)

I do sound interested. i sent u a pm.

so my thoughts on what went wrong is,

my cam shaft locked up on the middle bearing and cuz everything was still fireing the crank was trying to spin the cam so it snapped just on the front side of the middle bearing and it spun and the valve springs pushed on the rods and lifters thus pushing on the cam and snapping the other side, just inside the block from cam gears, and well then 2 lifters drop along with push rods and cuz the cam snapped yet again put pressure on the crank where a piston rod sits then there goes the main cap, and well the whole engine stops.

dose that sound like what happened maybe?

still think its kinda funny, when i was pulling my oilpan off i looked at a spot that had something loged in it, thought it was a piston rod, and i looked closer and was like thats not a rod, then how did that get down there, it was a nice shinny lifter. lol

Steven

Missing main cap???? Didn't know a Duke had enough hp or torque to rip one off.

Your best easiest cheapest route is another vin R 4 cyl--IF you need the car back up and running again ASAP. Your best choice is to put a v6 in. Not real easy on an 84, but you will most likely be happier with it in the long run assuming you can do without the car for a while.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Missing main cap???? Didn't know a Duke had enough hp or torque to rip one off. Your best easiest cheapest route is another vin R 4 cyl--IF you need the car back up and running again ASAP. Your best choice is to put a v6 in. Not real easy on an 84, but you will most likely be happier with it in the long run assuming you can do without the car for a while.

well i think the cam breaking might have had something to do with the main cap. and i might have an engine coming if the guy can get it out of the car in a junkyard, and if not i might buy the cradle with 2.8 and isusu tranny depending on how much hes asking,

im dropping my cradle tomarrow, hope i can drop in one day, if i can get furniture roller or something under the cradle to roll it out,

Thanks, Steven

whatever you do, do not get rid of your 4 speed they are more valuable than gold to some people
i would say keep it they are supposed to be the most durable of the fieros too. find out what you need
to swap in a motor of your choice and do that because you will not ever find a 4 speed again
i know i cant. but yeah the tranny should bolt right up. i havent done it but many people tell me that
they fit no problem.
by the way sorry bout the burnt up engine that stinks.

quote Originally posted by BlackGT Codde: whatever you do, do not get rid of your 4 speed they are more valuable than gold to some people i would say keep it they are supposed to be the most durable of the fieros too. find out what you need to swap in a motor of your choice and do that because you will not ever find a 4 speed again i know i cant. but yeah the tranny should bolt right up. i havent done it but many people tell me that they fit no problem. by the way sorry bout the burnt up engine that stinks.

Thanks for the input, and dont worry about the blow up, im sure it happened for a reason, maybe im supost to buy the 2.8 from fieroking, but not sure. my fiero might be telling me it wants a 2.8 instead of the 2.5 lol, well thanks again for the input. helps alot.

Thanks Steven

well maybe im not sopost to buy the 2.8 from Fieroking, i think i was sopost to get a new 2.5 cuz i cracked my piston and so the car was telling me and did it the hard way and said replace me. so i guess if something goes wrong further down the road i know ill probably find out the hard way with another blown engine [ i hope not it cost to much to replace ] but anyways so now a cracked piston is added into the mess i already have.

What would cause a cracked piston? oh my valve trane is good so im happy there, i might take it down to the machine shop at work and them look it over and tell me its still good. gonna take a crank and cam i also have down and have them look em over too.

Steven

Well i picked up a block from a junkyard yesterday. i was told its out of an 84 but i think its actually an 85. i never herd of a an 84 with roller lifters and thats what is in the block i got yesterday, So my question is, Did any 84's come with roller lifters? well time to go take all my parts to the machine shop to get worked on,

could be a replacement GM engine (they recalled a bunch of 2.5l engines and replaced them).

J.

The engines that were replaced in the recall would have had roller lifters, if it is a recall engine there's a good chance the con rods will not break again

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ: The engines that were replaced in the recall would have had roller lifters, if it is a recall engine there's a good chance the con rods will not break again

ahh sweet, that would be a good thing to know that the connecting rod wont break, all tho my cam broke is what caused my problem, but thanks for the input from both jask and rwdplz.

Thanks Steven

Stay with 2.5 it is best fiero engine even a 2.8 V 6 is not an easy swap.. no swap is easy contrary to what is reported on the forum..only do a swap if you "WANT" a different engine,,just replacing an engine with a stock engine is a pain ..
you need to pull the valve cover and the oil pan on the replacement engine if it is a hi miler you should do a rebuild unless strapped for cash.. The duke head is easy to rebuild out of the car or in the cars,, The duke head is as easy as it gets in auto head repair
A used engine should have new rings and the valves lightly reseated by counter rotation with rubber cup method ..never reseat with drill spin method, ,and new valve oil seals
If the crank & rods seems solid & thier is not to much slop in the pistons you can go with a rering, the critical factor is the unworn area at the top of the ring travel,, the ring ridge often has to be cut down,, when doing a cheap rebuild go light with the hone ..if no hone you can cross hatch with sand paper..A deep ring ridge?? you must rebore ,,serious galling ,mangled barings ,broken pistons ,,call for rebuilt engine if cheap like me clean out engine as good as possible clean oil pan spic & span make sure its straight..at gasket surface
Scored crank journals must be machined