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Help! Changed starter & ignition switch... still intermittent start by redraif
Started on: 04-26-2008 03:35 PM
Replies: 45
Last post by: redraif on 06-25-2008 03:44 PM
redraif
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Report this Post04-26-2008 03:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
1984 indy 2.5L....

Ok now I'm dumbfounded. I swapped a bad starter (had stuff falling out of it) and I installed the new ignition switch. Even did the temp gauge fix. (only supposed to pull the double green on an 84, right?)

Ok on to the switch install...I installed the switch and tightened it up. Checked the alignment. All seemed well I hooked up the battery. Crossed my fingers and fired it up. It worked... 10 times it worked.

Then I thought i was safe and started to push the column back in place & gave it one last fire before I installed the brackets...Here we go again. Same thing. NO start.

I loosened the fasteners on the switch & tried to adjust it. It worked... I tightened. It worked a few times then it did not. Over & over this repeated for a half hour.

So now what??? Any thoughts?

Guess I go buy a meter & start taking numbers? Where do I need to get readings from & what should they be to be correct? Is there a good thread on how to use a meter to get voltage readings? I ahve never traced wries before, or tested continuity.

Thanks for your help!

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"I'm just a girl..."
1984 Indy Fiero Pace Car
1987 Red & Black Firebird: "RAIF" WEBSITE: www.redraif.com
OTHER CARS’ WEBSITES:
1982 Trans AM / 1990 Chevy Dually / 1976 Scout II / 1987 Nissan Pulsar

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Report this Post04-27-2008 11:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
Wow I had hoped someone would have had something to chime in with. I got a multimeter.

Initial results:
I have tested the battery: 12.34
The power wire leading to the starter: 12.34
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Report this Post04-28-2008 10:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
Went to the Intl Auto Show this Sunday, so I did not get anymore done then the above test done.

I guess from doing searches I'm going to try a few things tonight. Just want to be sure I have the right idea before I start the spark fest.

Going to test my grounds using something I saw Francis T post. What I will do. Jack the car up. Use jumper cables & put neg one on the starter or one of its mounting bolts. Then have a friend start the car, if I get a no start then attach the other to the neg on the battery while they are still holding teh key and see if the starter suddenly comes to life. Then it should point to a faulty gound.

If it still will not start then atttach the cable to the metal strap that goes from the solenoid to the starter motor. Then wait for another no start, hold key and attach other end to the positive side of the battery and see if it starts. Then if it starts I'm looking at a power problem, probably in the solenoid?

Does this sound right? I just want you all to check my steps. Want to be sure I'm doing this right so I get good results.

If I wanted to test the solenoid under the car how should I do it? Should I wait for a not start have the key held and see what reading the multimeter gets from the solenoid to motor strap? What should it read when its working right?

The only other thing I did not do is shim the starter. I could not see how to get the testor in there with the starter in place. Maybe I was looking in the wrong place? But from what I ahve read the starter shimming should only affect if the starter either runs w/o engaging the flywheel, drags eccessively, or will not work at all. None of these things have occured with mine. When it works it works fine.

I also wanted to be sure the neutral safety bypass was working right. I have never done it because of habit, but I purposefully started the car w/o depressing the clutch and it worked.

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"I'm just a girl..."
1984 Indy Fiero Pace Car
1987 Red & Black Firebird: "RAIF" WEBSITE: www.redraif.com
OTHER CARS’ WEBSITES:
1982 Trans AM / 1990 Chevy Dually / 1976 Scout II / 1987 Nissan Pulsar

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Report this Post04-28-2008 02:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SynthesisSend a Private Message to SynthesisDirect Link to This Post
You need to fix your neutral safety switch. Either it is out of adjustment, or someone bypassed it.

As for your starting issue... I would strongly suggest doing braided ground straps between the engine, transmission, and chassis. Before you start messing around with jumper cables down near the starter. (Asking for a short).

To test the solenoid... Get a "One man starter" which is a switch with a long cable and two alligator clips. It connects to the solenoid at the battery cable post, and the small ignition wire on the solenoid. When you press the button, it engages the solenoid and starter.

This would be safer than a jumper cable.
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redraif
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Report this Post04-28-2008 02:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
I am aware that my neutral safety switch has been bypassed. Is this going to cause an intermittent start?
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Report this Post04-28-2008 03:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SynthesisSend a Private Message to SynthesisDirect Link to This Post
It could. Especially if it was bypassed poorly. AKA A splice instead of a jumper in the end. Moving the column back up to bolt it into place would have put some strain on the clutch switch wiring. Thus, causing an intermittent connection.

Check your bypass wiring. If you are intent on keeping the clutch switch out of the loop, then take the two wires and solder/heatshrink them together.

The clutch switch is there for a reason, and I would strongly suggest putting it back to factory. I have even seen use of a high amperage rocker switch being used as a short term bypass.

[This message has been edited by Synthesis (edited 04-28-2008).]

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redraif
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Report this Post04-28-2008 04:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
When I got the car it was bypassed. Ran fine for over a year like it was. The previous owner had disconnected the switch. At the under dash weather pack with the purple and yellow wire, he took a piece of wire and looped it from one wire to the other in the weatherpack.

I never thought it would be the problem, but it is on my list of things to put back the right way soon.


The ("One man starter" which is a switch with a long cable and two alligator clips. ) Is this something I need to get parts and make or is it sold at a parts store? If I need to make it what gauge wires and what current should the switch need to be able to handle so as to not fry it?

[This message has been edited by redraif (edited 04-28-2008).]

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Report this Post04-28-2008 05:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SynthesisSend a Private Message to SynthesisDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by redraif:

The ("One man starter" which is a switch with a long cable and two alligator clips. ) Is this something I need to get parts and make or is it sold at a parts store? If I need to make it what gauge wires and what current should the switch need to be able to handle so as to not fry it?



It is available at the parts store. Should be about 12-20 bucks.

You leave your key on in the vehicle, and then just stand back by the engine, press the button, and it starts.

You have to use the key to shut it off though.


Fix or replace the bypass jumper for your clutch switch before spending any money. That very well may be the cause.

It sounds that way, especially if it worked flawlessly as long as the column was down but started having issues once the column was back up.

[This message has been edited by Synthesis (edited 04-28-2008).]

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Report this Post04-28-2008 06:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for plumcocoSend a Private Message to plumcocoDirect Link to This Post
ive had the same problem on 2 fieros,84,4cyl, 86,6cyl. each time it was the rod from the key to the switch, had to adjust the switch so the rod would contact it.
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Report this Post04-28-2008 08:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Synthesis:
Fix or replace the bypass jumper for your clutch switch before spending any money. That very well may be the cause.

It sounds that way, especially if it worked flawlessly as long as the column was down but started having issues once the column was back up.



The problem is not only with the column up, but with the column down as well.

 
quote
Originally posted by plumcoco:

ive had the same problem on 2 fieros,84,4cyl, 86,6cyl. each time it was the rod from the key to the switch, had to adjust the switch so the rod would contact it.


I have adjusted the rod and switch about 10-15 times and each time, it would act like it was okay, but would then act up again. So, I don't think it's a switch placement problem, as much as I wish it was that simple.

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Report this Post04-28-2008 08:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post

redraif

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I tried this test I found on another thread...
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:

bad battery cables & bad grounds

for a test - while the car is running, take an ohmmeter, and hold one end on a bare spot on motor - like maybe an upper plenum bolt - and the other on the (-)Neg on the battery. ideally - you should see ZERO volts. of course, ideal does not exist - but - you should see under 1 volt. this is your ground loss you are seeing.


I have a zero or a negative one on the 20 volt scale on my multimeter. I touched the neg battery cable and the stud on the top of my air cleaner lid. Then I tried again on an intake bolt and got the same reading.

Does this tell me anything?

[This message has been edited by redraif (edited 04-29-2008).]

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Report this Post04-28-2008 09:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post

redraif

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Ok was out there fiddling. I was checking the ignition switch again. I noticed if I turn the key to the off position and pull out the key, the lock cylinder can still go back towards me a bit and it will actually click back and the radio will come on. I know in my 87 bird the cylinder had a back accessory position to listen to just the radio. Is it so in the fiero adn I ahve my ign switch in the worng position still?

Also I worried that the no start was from my jumper on my neutral safety switch. So I figured if I could get the car to act up I would wiggle the jumper & see if it starts. Well I had my assistant try to start the car & now the darn thing started 15 times perfectly. Finally a no start adn she held the key. I messed with the jumper and tried a reposition just to see. It made no change. Still a not start. She held it for quite a bit while I tried a few things and then we got a no click with the next try.

So now I have a no start with no click. The battery is down to 12 volts. Is it just to low to engage the solenoid to click? Though I thought a low battery would make it rapid fire?

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Report this Post04-28-2008 09:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post

redraif

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quote
Originally posted by plumcoco:

ive had the same problem on 2 fieros,84,4cyl, 86,6cyl. each time it was the rod from the key to the switch, had to adjust the switch so the rod would contact it.


How did you adjust your rod? My switch seems to be stubborn. I dont really have any slop to adjust with...

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Report this Post04-28-2008 10:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post

redraif

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UGH now it starts again!

Ok a pattern to this would be nice. Did I just overheat the solenoid when we held the key in the crank position during the no start condition?

Oh I did check the battery while the car was running and I have a 14+ volts while running

[This message has been edited by redraif (edited 04-29-2008).]

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Report this Post04-29-2008 02:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 86GT3.4DOHCSend a Private Message to 86GT3.4DOHCDirect Link to This Post
What kind of wire did they bypass the neutral saftey switch with? It should be very large, if they used a piddly little piece of wire, it will allow it to crank for a while, but the resistance will go up quickly as the wire heats. I had this problem once when I was working on a car, I had bypassed the switch as some sort of diagnostic (I forget now) anyway, the wire was getting hot enough the insulation was like rubber, and the car would crank for a bit, but then stop.

When you turn the key, but it does not crank, are all the dash lights and everything going off like when you normally turn the key, if so then you could assume its making it into the start posisiton.
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Report this Post04-29-2008 07:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC:

What kind of wire did they bypass the neutral saftey switch with? It should be very large, if they used a piddly little piece of wire, it will allow it to crank for a while, but the resistance will go up quickly as the wire heats. I had this problem once when I was working on a car, I had bypassed the switch as some sort of diagnostic (I forget now) anyway, the wire was getting hot enough the insulation was like rubber, and the car would crank for a bit, but then stop.

When you turn the key, but it does not crank, are all the dash lights and everything going off like when you normally turn the key, if so then you could assume its making it into the start posisiton.


I did notice that the wire heated up some, but that was after 12 starts. I'm guesssing it's a 12 or 14 gauge wire with male blade terminals on either end that have been slid into the old weather pack connector. When I had it held for a bit in the on position with a no start condition that wire got quite hot.

But my no start condition has also accured on the first attempt when I know that wire is not hot. When should there be current to that wire? Is there any with the car off, or only when the solenoid is charged in a cranking situation. I was trying to test voltage there and got nothing with the car off or in acc position. I did not try it when the car was in the crank position, but the blue sparks when I wiggled the jumper told me there was current.

I will check the dash lights tonight and see what they do. I will say, I know the check engine light comes on during the self test (accessory position) and then does go back off when you crank the engine. I just did not look hard enough at all that when it was stuck in the no start condition. I was running around trying to check everything else. LOL!

[This message has been edited by redraif (edited 04-29-2008).]

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Report this Post04-29-2008 12:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86GT3.4DOHCSend a Private Message to 86GT3.4DOHCDirect Link to This Post
Im no expert, but I really doubt stranded 14 guage wire would be enough to carry that load. It should not be getting even warm, it should be the same size wire as the purple\yellow starter wires.

You will only see 12V on that line in the crank posistion. This wont be a real test though, as even if it is passing the 12V, it could be causing so much resistance there isnt enough current to turn the starter. Still though, you would probably get a click or so from the starter.

Check for the SES light when it wont crank, that will tell you if the switch is moving into the start posistion.
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Report this Post04-29-2008 12:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SynthesisSend a Private Message to SynthesisDirect Link to This Post
The wires for the ignition switch to Solenoid do not carry enough current to "turn the starter". All they do is engage the solenoid. In essence, a high amperage relay that also mechanically engages the starter gear with the ring gear on the flywheel.

14g is NOT large enough. That wire should be at least 8g, and again, I would recommend putting the clutch bypass circuit back into action, even if you have to buy a new clutch switch. This will eliminate that connection as a culprit entirely.

If your ignition switch is out of adjustment, then that would lead to similar issues as well. I realize you have adjusted it numerous times, but try it again. With the key in the off position, the key barrel should be locked. No movement forward or backwards at all.

Set the switch adjustment to "off" at this point. Turn the key into Accessory position. The radio should come on. The Key barrel should make a noticeable "click" into Accessory.

Disconnect the bypass for your clutch switch. Then turn the key forward into "Run" position. NOT Start position.
All Dash lights should come on, your fan should work, the radio should kick on, and all accessories should work.

Then, move the key to "Start". The dash lights should all shut off from the moment you move the key past the "Run" position. They should stay off, and all accessories should shut off in the Start position. If the lights do not shut off, then your switch is bad or out of position.

Your start issue sounds like an intermittent connection issue.

Start with the ignition switch and harness. Check the harness for corrosion on the connectors, and damage to the harness. Adjust the switch as I stated above.

Fix the Clutch switch. Even if you are only going to bypass it later, fix it anyway. Use it while troubleshooting. It will eliminate a second potential issue. (It is easy to adjust the clutch switch when it is working properly.)

If that does not solve the problem, check your starter connections, and fusible links. Check for wiring damage, burns, corrosion.

This is not a complicated issue or circuit, it just takes a clear understanding of the way the circuit is set up. Good luck, let us know how it goes.
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Report this Post04-29-2008 01:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86GT3.4DOHCSend a Private Message to 86GT3.4DOHCDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Synthesis:

The wires for the ignition switch to Solenoid do not carry enough current to "turn the starter". All they do is engage the solenoid.


Sry, typo, I mean to refrence the solenoid, which still draws quite a bit of power, there is a reason they used 8 guage wiring for it.
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Report this Post04-29-2008 01:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SynthesisSend a Private Message to SynthesisDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC:


Sry, typo, I mean to refrence the solenoid, which still draws quite a bit of power, there is a reason they used 8 guage wiring for it.


Very true. I figured it was a typo on your part, but needed to get the correction in there to prevent any confusion.
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Report this Post04-29-2008 01:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
I wish I knew if my old neutral safety was good and just out of adjustment. Its still there BTW. I will def get a bigger wire at least for it.

 
quote
Originally posted by Synthesis:
If your ignition switch is out of adjustment, then that would lead to similar issues as well. I realize you have adjusted it numerous times, but try it again. With the key in the off position, the key barrel should be locked. No movement forward or backwards at all.

Set the switch adjustment to "off" at this point. Turn the key into Accessory position. The radio should come on. The Key barrel should make a noticeable "click" into Accessory.


Ok with both the old and new switch I can actually take the key out before the off position. It does not even need the lever depressed to do it. Been that way since I got it. Maybe this is relavant

Ok on the column and lock cylinder I assume the correct off position is when the the arrows line up? If I do this with mine, I can depress the lever & key comes out. But I can still move the cylinder back towards me a bit and thats when the radio comes on. I can them pull the rod on the column and get a click to shut it off, but then the arrows don't line up. Does the fiero have a rear acc position like my bird?

Right now I have the ign switch in the forward most position. Pushing it as hard as I can forward and tightening down the bolts. That is obviously not the right place. LOL! I guess what I need to do is take the ign switch loose and set the new ign switch by hand so it is definately in the off position. What is the correct off position? Then I can put my column in the correct off position & gently mate the 2 up. Zero them both out so to speak.

Is there a place to lube up the rod to help it out? Mine is a bit rusty and leaving marks on the column. May not matter at all to it function.

[This message has been edited by redraif (edited 04-29-2008).]

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Report this Post04-29-2008 01:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Synthesis:
If that does not solve the problem, check your starter connections, and fusible links. Check for wiring damage, burns, corrosion.


No fusible links. None when I got the car. Just 20 feet of red 10 guage wire. No Junction block nada. So I have 4 red wires running off the starter bolted on the the same bolt the power wire connects. YIPES! I have a spare junction block that I got off a bird in the junkyard. I had plans to simplify the wiring I was cursed with by the previous owner. Run a single wire back off the starter from the large stud with teh battery wire (was not sure what guage yet) over to my junction block and dispurse the individual wires from there. Guess I will be doing that as well if the issue still persits.

Nothing is simple in this car. Good thing its an INDY... LOL!
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Report this Post04-29-2008 01:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SynthesisSend a Private Message to SynthesisDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by redraif:

I wish I knew if my old neutral safety was good and just out of adjustment. Its still there BTW. I will def get a bigger wire at least for it.

Ok with both the old and new switch I can actually take the key out before the off position. It does not even need the lever depressed to do it. Been that way since I got it. Maybe this is relavant

Ok on the column and lock cylinder I assume the correct off position is when the the arrows line up? If I do this with mine, I can depress the lever & key comes out. But I can still move the cylinder back towards me a bit and thats when the radio comes on. I can them pull the rod on the column and get a click to shut it off, but then the arrows don't line up. Does the fiero have a rear acc position like my bird?

Right now I have the ign switch in the forward most position. Pushing it as hard as I can forward and tightening down the bolts. That is obviously not the right place. LOL! I guess what I need to do is take the ign switch loose and set the new ign switch by hand so it is definately in the off position. What is the correct off position? Then I can put my column in the correct off position & gently mate the 2 up. Zero them both out so to speak.

Is there a place to lube up the rod to help it out? Mine is a bit rusty and leaving marks on the column. May not matter at all to it function.



First... The Clutch Switch can be tested. Connect a continuity meter between both pins on the clutch safety switch. Press the clutch all the way to the floor (while you are looking at the switch). You should get contact.

The clutch arm PULLS on the plastic shaft for the clutch switch. It will pull the shaft THROUGH the center of the switch. There is an adjuster on the shaft that slides up and down the shaft to adjust. It should make a ratcheting noise as you move it, and should be adjusted so that when the clutch pedal is at rest, it is just above the clutch switch button. Press the clutch pedal to the floor, and you should hear the adjuster ratchet, and it will slide up the shaft a bit. The button should be pressed in, and you should have continuity. If it does not ratchet, then the adjuster is bad, and you need a new clutch switch and adjuster.

The Keyed assembly is most likely worn, and the key is worn. I would suggest replacing these with a new lock set. If you have a tilt column, you may also have a faulty mechanism in the column where it links the upper part of the column to the lower part. I believe Jazzman has a write up on this. You would need to search the TD&Q section for "Inside the GM Column" or similar.

The Fiero DOES have a rear accessory position. In the "Off" position, when you would normally pull the key out, the key should be able to removed. Then and ONLY then should it be safe to remove it. Then, you should NOT be able to move it backwards into Accessory with no key. This can be caused by a worn lock cylinder. Replace it. The new one should give you much more consistent movement and feel.

Set the key to off (Where your arrows line up), and then remove the key. Tape this into position this way if you must while you adjust the ignition switch. Your ignition switch rod should not have any play in either direction towards or away from the steering wheel with the key off. If you do, then you may need to dig into the column and perform some repairs, or consider a new column in good shape.
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Report this Post04-29-2008 02:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SynthesisSend a Private Message to SynthesisDirect Link to This Post

Synthesis

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quote
Originally posted by redraif:

No fusible links. None when I got the car. Just 20 feet of red 10 guage wire. No Junction block nada. So I have 4 red wires running off the starter bolted on the the same bolt the power wire connects. YIPES! I have a spare junction block that I got off a bird in the junkyard. I had plans to simplify the wiring I was cursed with by the previous owner. Run a single wire back off the starter from the large stud with teh battery wire (was not sure what guage yet) over to my junction block and dispurse the individual wires from there. Guess I will be doing that as well if the issue still persits.

Nothing is simple in this car. Good thing its an INDY... LOL!


Very scary. I would strongly suggest new fusible links. Trust me, the labor to put them in is worth the peace of mind knowing you won't burn your car to the ground with a simple short. Also, they should be 8g last I checked. The positive battery cable goes to the large lug on the starter. The power feeds for the car come off this lug through the fusible links, and then supply the car with juice.

This is normal, and the best way to provide power, as it gives a direct feed from the battery. I am unsure if the 1984 Fieros had a small junction and wire from the positive battery post to feed the ECM or not. Usually, there is, and it is a 10 or 12g wire.

Two of those wires coming off of the lug on the solenoid go straight to the ignition switch to provide power for the vehicle when the key is on and to provide juice through the starting circuit. So in essence, you have a loop which runs from the battery connection up to the switch, through the switch down to the clutch switch. When the clutch switch is engaged, it allows the circuit to complete back to the "trigger" post on the solenoid, thus kicking the solenoid on (a magnet which forces a piston down against the end with the electrical connections). The solenoid pulls down, causing the battery to connect directly to the starter motor. When the solenoid pulls down, it also pulls one end of a lever which causes the other end to cause the pinion gear to engage the ring gear. And, with the starter motor on because the solenoid is engaged, the car zips right over and fires up.
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quote
Originally posted by redraif:


No fusible links. None when I got the car. Just 20 feet of red 10 guage wire. No Junction block nada. So I have 4 red wires running off the starter bolted on the the same bolt the power wire connects. YIPES! I have a spare junction block that I got off a bird in the junkyard. I had plans to simplify the wiring I was cursed with by the previous owner. Run a single wire back off the starter from the large stud with teh battery wire (was not sure what guage yet) over to my junction block and dispurse the individual wires from there. Guess I will be doing that as well if the issue still persits.

Nothing is simple in this car. Good thing its an INDY... LOL!


*note* I must have been typing this while sythesis was typing. Below is my recollection of how the wiring is, BUT, I will note its been a while since I've worked on a stock Fiero, this is just how I wired all my swaps, which should be simular to the stock wiring.


Wow... Wow...

Okay, you should just have the battery cable connected to the large stud on the starter, and only the battery cable. There should be one, and only one, wire on the solenoid. I forget if its yellow or purple, it comes out of the ignition switch one color, then changes colors at the neutral saftey switch to the other. I think its purple at the starter. Anyway, those are the only two wires you should have. The battery cable end at the battery should have one very large, like 2(or 0) guage wire running down to the starter and a smaller 8ish guage wire that runs over to the junction block on the passenger side right in front of the strut tower, inches from the battery.

While we're here, the ground wire should be the same heavy battery wire 2 or 0 guage to the engine block, somewhere large. Then it should have one 8ish guage wire to the frame right beside the battery, sort of twards the engine.

Anything else is aftermarket and should be removed \ fixed, except for extra grounds those are generally good.

[This message has been edited by 86GT3.4DOHC (edited 04-29-2008).]

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Report this Post04-29-2008 02:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC:


*note* I must have been typing this while sythesis was typing. Below is my recollection of how the wiring is, BUT, I will note its been a while since I've worked on a stock Fiero, this is just how I wired all my swaps, which should be simular to the stock wiring.


Wow... Wow...

Okay, you should just have the battery cable connected to the large stud on the starter, and only the battery cable. There should be one, and only one, wire on the solenoid. I forget if its yellow or purple, it comes out of the ignition switch one color, then changes colors at the neutral saftey switch to the other. I think its purple at the starter. Anyway, those are the only two wires you should have. The battery cable end at the battery should have one very large, like 2(or 0) guage wire running down to the starter and a smaller 8ish guage wire that runs over to the junction block on the passenger side right in front of the strut tower, inches from the battery.

While we're here, the ground wire should be the same heavy battery wire 2 or 0 guage to the engine block, somewhere large. Then it should have one 8ish guage wire to the frame right beside the battery, sort of twards the engine.

Anything else is aftermarket and should be removed \ fixed, except for extra grounds those are generally good.



Well previous owner AKA dummy... clipped the wire that came off the battery cable (10 gauge). There is no junction block. Both the positive and neg cable are 2 to 0 gauge. Neg connects to the engine and has a leg to the body. I beefed up the engine to body one a few months back. I just could not get into the ground strap being big enough! So that much is right. I have heard conficting info on whether the 84 had the junction block. Might be why dummy cut the second cable and connected everything off the starter.

My neutral safety is another 10 gauge RED wire run haphazardly about the engine bay. That was in part why I was trying to test is last night.

[This message has been edited by redraif (edited 04-29-2008).]

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redraif

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quote
Originally posted by Synthesis:


Very scary. I would strongly suggest new fusible links. Trust me, the labor to put them in is worth the peace of mind knowing you won't burn your car to the ground with a simple short. Also, they should be 8g last I checked. The positive battery cable goes to the large lug on the starter. The power feeds for the car come off this lug through the fusible links, and then supply the car with juice.

This is normal, and the best way to provide power, as it gives a direct feed from the battery. I am unsure if the 1984 Fieros had a small junction and wire from the positive battery post to feed the ECM or not. Usually, there is, and it is a 10 or 12g wire.

Two of those wires coming off of the lug on the solenoid go straight to the ignition switch to provide power for the vehicle when the key is on and to provide juice through the starting circuit. So in essence, you have a loop which runs from the battery connection up to the switch, through the switch down to the clutch switch. When the clutch switch is engaged, it allows the circuit to complete back to the "trigger" post on the solenoid, thus kicking the solenoid on (a magnet which forces a piston down against the end with the electrical connections). The solenoid pulls down, causing the battery to connect directly to the starter motor. When the solenoid pulls down, it also pulls one end of a lever which causes the other end to cause the pinion gear to engage the ring gear. And, with the starter motor on because the solenoid is engaged, the car zips right over and fires up.



So my extra wires that are coming off the starter. Add fusible links, will do 8gauge. Now should they attach to the larger stud where the battery cable goes, or should they be on the smaller stud with the neutral safety switch? Or is it just better to run them off a junction block directy from the battery's extra cable and forget the way the car was and is and make it better?
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Report this Post04-29-2008 02:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SynthesisSend a Private Message to SynthesisDirect Link to This Post
I may be wrong after thinking about it. The extra power connections do come off the battery cable, but....

Honestly, it has been a long time since I played with the starter side of things.

I know that the power to the accessories and everything forward of the engine does not come off of one little tiny pigtail wire up off the battery post. I believe they come off the starter battery wire lug. This is how mine is if I am not mistaken.

All of the fusible links in the vehicle are down next to the starter, and in my car, they come off of that lug.

If I can find a picture of the starter area on a Fiero, I will.
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Report this Post04-29-2008 02:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SynthesisSend a Private Message to SynthesisDirect Link to This Post

Synthesis

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Not a Fiero, but it is a GM LS4... Notice the power wire on the same lug as the Battery cable?



On this engine, that extra wire goes to a junction block, which is the proper way to do it. On the Fiero, all of the extra wires tied into that one lug. So I was correct in what I stated before.

If you want to on your Indy, you can add a junction block, run a 4 gauge wire up to a junction block from the battery lug on the starter, and then wire your power distribution from there, or you can just repair everything below and put it back to GM Factory.

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Report this Post04-30-2008 11:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
I did not get to spend as much time as I planned on the car last night. I spent my time trying to look at what and where. Please look at the below list & let me know if it sounds right. I'm trying to piece together what previous owner did. Maybe that is where my problem lies.

Both my battery wires are stock size... AKA 4 gauge. I looked at advance for larger GM side post versions (0 or 2) and found none. Let me know if I need to go to summit and upgrade.

Ok back to what I have...

On the GROUND side...
1. 4 gauge battery cable running to engine.
2. Smaller wire 10 gauge on battery cable run to body.
3. Old ground strap to deck lid mount replaced with a 4 gauge.
4. Another 4 gauge running from a tranny to engine bolt to the deck lid mount on drivers side.
5. Smaller wire 10 gauge from the above tranny bolt to the body of the car.

MYSTERY WIRE!
small (16 guage) black? wire (I think it got pinched & cut in the tranny case when the clutch was swapped) its now right with the tranny grounds. However its snapped off. I'm not sure if its a ground or not. I found another snapped wire that comes from junction of wires. NOTE: this junction was moved from where ever GM put it by previous owner. It has wires coming out of the top that go inside the car. The bottom has 2 weather packs that plug in. The wire that is broke comes from the right side. (mine is melted and charred) Is this wire a ground???? Maybe for the computer??? can anyone trace the black wire from this junction in their engine bay to know where it goes. I'm sure I need to have it reconnected to something!

More info... as I looked at the bay the black wire is with a junction that has to weather packs at thr bottom and one larger bundle of wire coming out of the top.
a. The black wire is with the weather pack on the right hand side. I think all the wires from there run to the rear of the car. Some to the deck lid switch and the others go into the body on the drivers side. Tailights maybe?
b. The wires on the left hand side have the purple wire from the starter.
c. the top bundle goes to the firewall junction block where the wires pass into the passenger cabin. I have 2 junctions into the passenger cabin. This top bundle goes over to the junction on the passenger side.



Ok on the POWER side:
1. 4gauge battery cable runs down to the large stud on the starter solenoid.
2. 10 gauge red wire on battery cable clipped and unused.

From starter:
1. On the small stud, the purple wire is still there and intact and runs into the car. It just does not look purple anymore when you are under the car. It runs to the left hand side of the mystery junction above. if I rem right...
2. On the large stud, I have a 10 gauge running to the Alternator.
3. On the large stud, I have a small orange/tan wire 16/14 guage running into the firewall wire junction that is on the driver side passing into the passenger cabin. ECM feed?
4. On the large stud, I have a 10 gauge running to the mystery junction detailed above. I assume main power for the interior? If I remember right is runs to the left hand weatherpack.
5. On the large stud, another 10 gauge (need to trace, will update)

Does this sound normal. Do the sizes sound adequate?

Now I need to add fusible links as mine are gone. What size do I need to put where. Advance only had 14 gauge.

Thanks!

[This message has been edited by redraif (edited 05-01-2008).]

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redraif

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quote
Originally posted by Synthesis:
First... The Clutch Switch can be tested. Connect a continuity meter between both pins on the clutch safety switch. Press the clutch all the way to the floor (while you are looking at the switch). You should get contact.

The clutch arm PULLS on the plastic shaft for the clutch switch. It will pull the shaft THROUGH the center of the switch. There is an adjuster on the shaft that slides up and down the shaft to adjust. It should make a ratcheting noise as you move it, and should be adjusted so that when the clutch pedal is at rest, it is just above the clutch switch button. Press the clutch pedal to the floor, and you should hear the adjuster ratchet, and it will slide up the shaft a bit. The button should be pressed in, and you should have continuity. If it does not ratchet, then the adjuster is bad, and you need a new clutch switch and adjuster.


I'm not sure if I'm looking at the right thing, if so there was a place to plug in 2 weather packs? Ok it was a milky yellow plastic. Had a shft that moved in and out with the clutch petal. It does not rachet, it just moves smoothly in and out. Anyone have a picture of the correct one. For all I know previous owner rigged it with teh wrong thing.

As for the bypass, as my switch is bad presumably, I added an adequately sized wire to bypass the switch till I get another one!

 
quote
Originally posted by Synthesis:
Set the key to off (Where your arrows line up), and then remove the key. Tape this into position this way if you must while you adjust the ignition switch. Your ignition switch rod should not have any play in either direction towards or away from the steering wheel with the key off. If you do, then you may need to dig into the column and perform some repairs, or consider a new column in good shape.


Any info on where the off is on the actual switch?

 
quote
Originally posted by Synthesis:
The Keyed assembly is most likely worn, and the key is worn. I would suggest replacing these with a new lock set. If you have a tilt column, you may also have a faulty mechanism in the column where it links the upper part of the column to the lower part. I believe Jazzman has a write up on this. You would need to search the TD&Q section for "Inside the GM Column" or similar.


Do they key the new set to my old key? Or is it a new key situation? GM or Parts store?

[This message has been edited by redraif (edited 04-30-2008).]

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Report this Post04-30-2008 12:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SynthesisSend a Private Message to SynthesisDirect Link to This Post
Tell you what...

Can you call me? lol

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Report this Post04-30-2008 03:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
Few of the OLD pics I had on my cardomain site of the odd mystery wire and its junction... car cleaned up quite a bit siince then. No more mystery pine needles... lol

The wire with the blue butt connector is the mystery wire. Just trying to see if it is a ground or not...

I will get some better ones tonight and that of the starter wires!



[This message has been edited by redraif (edited 06-25-2008).]

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Report this Post04-30-2008 03:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ly41181Send a Private Message to ly41181Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Synthesis:
The Keyed assembly is most likely worn, and the key is worn. I would suggest replacing these with a new lock set. If you have a tilt column, you may also have a faulty mechanism in the column where it links the upper part of the column to the lower part. I believe Jazzman has a write up on this. You would need to search the TD&Q section for "Inside the GM Column" or similar.


I have a little play with the lock cylinder and sometimes i've had a problem with it not starting. If I turn it over and it doesn't start I can wiggle the key area while turning it over and it will start up. You might try that and see if that works for you.

Buddy Craigg has some videos on replacing the lock cylinder:









[This message has been edited by ly41181 (edited 04-30-2008).]

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Report this Post05-01-2008 11:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
I got the neutral safety switch fixed. Thanks Synthesis, + for your over and above help! Worked just like you decribed. So no more bypass... yeah!

I messed with the ingition switch and got it dialed in! Finally. Had to play with with a baby screw driver. I tried to hit each position so I would know for sure where off and rear accessory is. I performed this with the wires attached and the neutral safety disengaged (so I did not actually start the car). I got it right and no more radio with the car off. I will have to replace the lock cylinder soon. The key can come out with the key just below the accessory before he off position. Its also hard to get it into the rear acc position. That is why I was not even sure I had one! I hope the new lock cylinder will help with both issues.

Ok I will be updating the wiring post I have above as the where things are going! Just chime in with any additional info to help me identify what teh previous owner hacked up. The plan is to swap over to a new stock harness at some point in the near future, but if I can get the Indy going a bit more reliably till then great! I want to take him to a show this weekend.

So far so good on the starting. I had one hickup out of 20 starts, but it still caught. I then took all the wires off the starter and wire brushed and scotchbrite sanded them to remove any possible contact issues.
Seems to be doing ok now. Though I have not left the driveway. LOL!

Also on start up the check engine light comes on with Acc pos then as you start it turns on and off. Turns off when the car is fired and running. Hope that is normal
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[This message has been edited by redraif (edited 05-01-2008).]

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Report this Post05-01-2008 03:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86GT3.4DOHCSend a Private Message to 86GT3.4DOHCDirect Link to This Post
Ehh I've had Fieros i'd swear did not have an accy posistion, like no matter how hard I tried I could not get it. Its no biggie. And as long as they key doesnt come out in the running posistion, personally, Id just leave it. Not like its going to hurt anything.
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Report this Post05-01-2008 03:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SynthesisSend a Private Message to SynthesisDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by redraif:

I got the neutral safety switch fixed. Thanks Synthesis, + for your over and above help! Worked just like you decribed. So no more bypass... yeah!

I messed with the ingition switch and got it dialed in! Finally. Had to play with with a baby screw driver. I tried to hit each position so I would know for sure where off and rear accessory is. I performed this with the wires attached and the neutral safety disengaged (so I did not actually start the car). I got it right and no more radio with the car off. I will have to replace the lock cylinder soon. The key can come out with the key just below the accessory before he off position. Its also hard to get it into the rear acc position. That is why I was not even sure I had one! I hope the new lock cylinder will help with both issues.

Ok I will be updating the wiring post I have above as the where things are going! Just chime in with any additional info to help me identify what teh previous owner hacked up. The plan is to swap over to a new stock harness at some point in the near future, but if I can get the Indy going a bit more reliably till then great! I want to take him to a show this weekend.

So far so good on the starting. I had one hickup out of 20 starts, but it still caught. I then took all the wires off the starter and wire brushed and scotchbrite sanded them to remove any possible contact issues.
Seems to be doing ok now. Though I have not left the driveway. LOL!

Also on start up the check engine light comes on with Acc pos then as you start it turns on and off. Turns off when the car is fired and running. Hope that is normal


Great news on the Clutch Switch! I figured that the previous owner did not know how to adjust it, and when it stopped working because it was out of adjustment, he figured it broke and bypassed it. NOW: If you have issues getting the car to start when you press the pedal to the floor, make sure you check the adjustment again. They do go out of whack if they are old.

Great to hear on the ignition as well. As stated in the post above mine: You can leave it, it won't cause issues other than key slop. But, I would replace it with a new key barrel and key. When you get a new Ignition lock cylinder, you get a new key with it. The Fiero Store has them in stock, and for a good price. When you get it put in, you will be amazed at how smooth it turns and easy it is to find all the positions. It is a pain to install, but well worth it. And, you don't need to drop the column or mess with the actual switch down on the column to replace the Ignition cylinder. (You may have to readjust it after installation due to the original barrel being so bad.)

That number I gave you will get me anywhere. If you have any other questions, please do not hesitate to call and ask. And: I have to say it is very refreshing to find a woman who is not afraid to dig into a car and get her hands dirty, let alone a Fiero.

I wish my GF was that interested in getting her hands dirty with the car. I could always use a wrench jockey helping me out. lol

I have some feelers out for a new harness for you. The one that is burnt... Does that run to the engine, or does it run out and around, and under the rear clip? (Tail lights possibly?)
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Report this Post05-01-2008 04:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
Again, I really appreciate the help!

Most of my car knowledge has been from my 87 firebird I have had since 89 when I turned 16. Its a 2.8 car, now a 3.4. It ran me thru the paces. I still have the bird, it was my daily driver till I got the Fiero. I just learn as I tackle things. Dad taught me to take it one step at a time and you will be amazed what you can fix yourself. I had alot of guys surprised when I worked as a service writer for a chevy dealer for a short stint. The girl thing bit me in the hindend though!

Ok back to business... the burnt section of the junction. Yes I think part of it does go to the tailights. It tucks under the rear quarters on the drivers side. Some of it then splinters off to the decklid switch for the trunk light. I have no issues with my tailights though. I just have a bit of a battery draw if the car sits for a while. I have my bets this wire has something to do with it!



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Report this Post05-01-2008 04:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SynthesisSend a Private Message to SynthesisDirect Link to This Post
It looked like the tail light connector, or part of it. And yes, that is most likely part of the power drain.

Changing that part of it is going to be a PITA, because you have to remove the rear notchback clip to get to the harness.

I will see if I can find the entire harness for you though, so that when/if you ever get time, you can dig in and change that as well.
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Report this Post05-01-2008 06:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
So do you think that the busted wire is a ground? Because if it is, I can attach it easy enough....
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