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Hydostatic Drive why not ? by engine man
Started on: 04-24-2008 08:20 AM
Replies: 41
Last post by: Will on 04-28-2008 11:20 AM
engine man
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Report this Post04-24-2008 08:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
It seems with all the problems that are had puting in the engine swaps this drive would work great you can put the engine in longitudale and run the hydralic lines to the drive motor this link shows a motorcycle with a hyrostatic drive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6G_YrGugug
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Report this Post04-24-2008 08:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianClick Here to Email PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
there is alot of loss in hydrostatic drives. but - hydrstatic is also a fun option for getting power to the front wheels too
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engine man
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Report this Post04-24-2008 08:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
Yes AWD sounds good to me just put some drive units up front and run the lines might want to make more power go to the rear though also you could make it help handling if you where realy clever. How much loss is there could it be made more efficant

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 04-24-2008).]

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Report this Post04-24-2008 09:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for XanthClick Here to visit Xanth's HomePageSend a Private Message to XanthDirect Link to This Post
The hydrostatic tractors I've driven have always been very touchy, and difficult to stay in "neutral" , always had a tendency to creep forward or backwards.

Are more precise hydrostatic drives available/affordable?
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Report this Post04-24-2008 09:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManClick Here to Email JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManDirect Link to This Post
My company designs and builds machines that use hydraulics and hydrostatic drive systems. Though their performance options look interesting the big downside is inefficiency. Hydraulic systems create tremendous amounts of heat, and the more power that they move the greater the heat created (and lost since that heat does no work). I just talked with an engineer here moments ago who said that as a rule of thumb losses through hydrostatic drive systems run at 20-25% with modern high-efficiency designs, primarily through compressional heating of the working fluid.

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engine man
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Report this Post04-24-2008 09:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
OK so what is a getrags losses or any other trany 15% 25% or what it may only be 5 to 10 % more not sure but I am sure they will get better and i read this so I am cunfused http://machinedesign.com/BD...bdefp6/bdefp6_6.html

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 04-24-2008).]

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Will
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Report this Post04-24-2008 11:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post
Loss through a transverse manual transmission is going to be <15%. It ranges from 15% in a stock Fiero w/ stock power to 10% or less at high power levels.

Hydrostatic won't touch it for efficiency. Hydrostatic probably also has issues with high shaft speeds...
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engine man
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Report this Post04-25-2008 01:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
After looking around i have found that you would need to get saft speed down to around 4000 rpm max thats not realy a problem just use 50% reduction belt drive for 8000 rpm engine .
Efficiency cant get a exact figure will need to talk to a person who makes the drives due to they seem to do it a bit different but the thing I see is so cunfusing my head is spining .
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Report this Post04-25-2008 01:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ryan.hessClick Here to Email ryan.hessSend a Private Message to ryan.hessDirect Link to This Post
20-25% isn't out of the norm for automatic transmissions. I'm sure it could be setup as one as well.
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engine man
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Report this Post04-25-2008 01:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
the thing i like best is it has a infinty gear range and that means you can keep the engine in perfect power range for acceleration so you should get the fastest acceleration out of the car

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 04-25-2008).]

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Report this Post04-25-2008 02:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ryan.hessClick Here to Email ryan.hessSend a Private Message to ryan.hessDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by engine man:
the thing i like best is it has a infinty gear range and that means you can keep the engine in perfect power range for acceleration so you should get the fastest acceleration out of the car


How? You would need a variable displacement pump or motor. If you bypass any of the hydraulic fluid, you're just wasting power.
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engine man
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Report this Post04-25-2008 02:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
this is some of it i am trying to understand is how it works dont no if it just bypases fluid or if build higher presure and lower volume then as you feed it volume the presuer go's down
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Russ544
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Report this Post04-25-2008 03:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Russ544Send a Private Message to Russ544Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by engine man:

this is some of it i am trying to understand is how it works dont no if it just bypases fluid or if build higher presure and lower volume then as you feed it volume the presuer go's down


the ones I'm familiar with use a variable displacement pump. no bypassing of fluid is done. oil volumn, and therefore speed, is changed by varing the pistons (multiple in all cases) stroke. this is accomplished by changine the angle of a swash plate that the pistons ride against on one end. . It's actually a very simple system,

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[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 04-25-2008).]

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engine man
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Report this Post04-25-2008 03:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
Thanks Russ544 now i get it I was wondering if the pumps and drive motors are at the perfect clearances i know the tighter you can run pumps the more eficient they run
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engine man
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Report this Post04-25-2008 03:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
Ok i have thought about how to control the swash plate or trany gearing .use Centrifugal force with wights and spring with a cable or with a computer controled servo based on engine speed this way you can keep the engine at peak torque through out the acceleration of the car

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 04-25-2008).]

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Report this Post04-25-2008 05:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for John BoelteClick Here to Email John BoelteSend a Private Message to John BoelteDirect Link to This Post
I appologize in advance. But, I have to ask, "What is centrical force?"
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Report this Post04-25-2008 06:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Marvin McInnisClick Here to visit Marvin McInnis's HomePageSend a Private Message to Marvin McInnisDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by John Boelte:

... I have to ask ...



I had the same response. I was even thinking Lewis Carroll: "Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe: all mimsy were the borogoves, and the mome raths outgrabe."

To address the original question, I'll agree with Jazz Man and others. Hydrostatic drive is best suited to low speed, high load applications, where the infinitely variable speed is truly useful.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 04-25-2008).]

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engine man
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Report this Post04-25-2008 07:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
Centrifugal sory . I think it would be good for a car due to you can keep the engine at peak power through the whole acceleration and from what I read it is fast responding so it's not some slow working thing plus the drive units can be hooked direct to the axle no rear end gears
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Report this Post04-25-2008 08:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 30+mpgClick Here to Email 30+mpgSend a Private Message to 30+mpgDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
engine man:... you can put the engine in longitudale and run the hydralic lines to the drive motor this link shows a motorcycle with a hyrostatic drive ...


Not me, but you can. Sounds great! Go for it dude!
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Report this Post04-25-2008 09:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
A plus for hst is dynamic braking inside the hst. If done correctly, when you release the accelerator, the hst goes into a "hydraulic lock" configuration------braking. The downside, is a complex system of cables and linkages on the HSTs I've worked on. Heat buildup is another problem, but that could be cured with adequate sized cooler. The hst I am familar with are in these little RTVs that Kubota makes. 3cyl diesel. I don't know about high speed or hi rpm apps.
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engine man
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Report this Post04-26-2008 06:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
may be i dont need as much HP due to the way the drive has so many gears it might be torque that is needed
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Report this Post04-26-2008 08:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by engine man:

After looking around i have found that you would need to get saft speed down to around 4000 rpm max thats not realy a problem just use 50% reduction belt drive for 8000 rpm engine .
Efficiency cant get a exact figure will need to talk to a person who makes the drives due to they seem to do it a bit different but the thing I see is so cunfusing my head is spining .


I meant the MOTOR shaft speed. Think about what RPM your tires are turning at the far end of the QM.

Basically, it hasn't been done for a REASON.
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engine man
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Report this Post04-26-2008 04:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
Will the pump shaft maybe spining at 4000 but the drives to the wheels might only spin at 2500 rpm so you dont need the rear end gears from what the math tells me
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Report this Post04-26-2008 04:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 30+mpgClick Here to Email 30+mpgSend a Private Message to 30+mpgDirect Link to This Post
Go for it. Where are you going to get the hydraulic pump and motor?
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engine man
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Report this Post04-26-2008 06:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
not sure yet still trying to understand it all but it sounds realy fun for me it is just the off the wall thing i like realy strang
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Report this Post04-27-2008 12:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManClick Here to Email JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManDirect Link to This Post
A hydraulic drive system:

http://www.suzukicycles.org...i/Falcorustyco.shtml

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Report this Post04-27-2008 01:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroBrad87Click Here to Email FieroBrad87Send a Private Message to FieroBrad87Direct Link to This Post
The idea of justifying the loss of energy in a hydrostat is only paid back in the ability to have infinite speeds. You lose a lot in heat and fluid drag. Also, a hydro light enough to justify installing in a car wouldn't be strong enough to do much more than baby it around. A hydro system strong enough to put 200-500 hp through would weigh as much as the car.
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engine man
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Report this Post04-27-2008 07:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
I dont think size or wight will be a problem just look at that suzuki jazzman found and that from the factory the loss in power is not as bad as you are trying to make it sound from what i have read
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Report this Post04-27-2008 08:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 30+mpgClick Here to Email 30+mpgSend a Private Message to 30+mpgDirect Link to This Post
So what's the first step for the install?
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Report this Post04-27-2008 08:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RCRClick Here to Email RCRSend a Private Message to RCRDirect Link to This Post
If you read the article, the bike never worked.

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Report this Post04-27-2008 08:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroBrad87Click Here to Email FieroBrad87Send a Private Message to FieroBrad87Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by engine man:

I dont think size or wight will be a problem just look at that suzuki jazzman found and that from the factory the loss in power is not as bad as you are trying to make it sound from what i have read


It won't work. Why not mate the motor to a generator and put a 50 hp electric motor on every wheel?

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engine man
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Report this Post04-27-2008 08:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
this guy made it work in a chopper so dont say it cant be done in a car just dont know if you realy need a bunch of HP to get realy good preformance. check out this site http://www.hydraulicinnovations.com/ this is where more info on the chopper
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Report this Post04-27-2008 12:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for John BoelteClick Here to Email John BoelteSend a Private Message to John BoelteDirect Link to This Post
If you really want to keep the engine in it's power band you should look into the CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission). It uses two variable pitch pulleys and a belt. Several cars have them now; they're popular in go-catrts. They have problems too though.

As many people have stated here, some of the problems with Hydrostatic drive is that it's inefficient, and heavy.
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engine man
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Report this Post04-27-2008 12:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
yes i keep hearing all that but the guy who built the hydrostatic drive motorcycle seems to show thats not so true plus they dont look at it compaird to the whole drive line thats there as far wight or efficiency
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Report this Post04-27-2008 05:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RickNClick Here to Email RickNSend a Private Message to RickNDirect Link to This Post
I would think hydraulic system noise would be a negative also!

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RickN
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Report this Post04-27-2008 05:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 30+mpgClick Here to Email 30+mpgSend a Private Message to 30+mpgDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
FieroBrad87:It won't work. ...


Yeah and Columbus was suppose to fall off the edge of the sea, man wasn't suppose to fly, go to the moon, etc.

Edison didn't invent the light bulb on his first try.
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Report this Post04-27-2008 06:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ray bClick Here to Email ray bSend a Private Message to ray bDirect Link to This Post
my dad did it in the 1940's home built a hydro drive car
he worked on the B-29 [that used a Hydostatic Drive on the nose wheel]
that allowed the aircraft to move it's self without a tug at low speeds
he sold the idea to Ford and work for them for several years trying to develope
the idea for production

links to pictures of the car

http://img.photobucket.com/...43/aarmed/img020.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/...43/aarmed/img021.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/...43/aarmed/img022.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/...43/aarmed/img024.jpg

the car had no brakes, trans, drive shafts or rear end diff
wheel mounter motors were used as a pump to slow the car
and power was fed to the tank [regen braking]
and extra power was used to aid acceleration
car used a aircraft aircooled motor and had a plywood body
as WW2 limited the normal sheet metals to war needs
surplus out of spec motors and pumps off the B-29 were used

it worked!!!
but buro-rattic in fighting at Ford never gave the car a chance
too many brass hats saw a threat to their areas of power

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

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ray b
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Report this Post04-27-2008 06:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ray bClick Here to Email ray bSend a Private Message to ray bDirect Link to This Post

ray b

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Report this Post04-27-2008 06:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroBrad87:
Also, a hydro light enough to justify installing in a car wouldn't be strong enough to do much more than baby it around. A hydro system strong enough to put 200-500 hp through would weigh as much as the car.


What makes you say that? Hydraulic systems have extremely high power density.

Many cars already have a hydro-dynamic drive built in... It's more commonly known as a torque convertor.
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engine man
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Report this Post04-27-2008 07:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
Yaaa some one who thinks it can be done i think that vane or gear hydraulic motor are the way to drive the wheels and a veriable volume pump where the swash plate is automatic based on load.

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 04-27-2008).]

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