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Bought a used Holley Carb by Capt Fiero
Started on: 04-18-2008 12:25 PM
Replies: 16
Last post by: Icelander on 04-22-2008 12:57 AM
Capt Fiero
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Report this Post04-18-2008 12:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroDirect Link to This Post
So Lisa (FieroChicks) Fiero has a lowly 305 and a Rochester Q-Jet on it. The Carb is hooped and needs some new parts to fix it. We started searching for a Carb about a month ago. We found this one. It came from a running engine and then was put in storage. It needs to be cleaned up and there is surface rust on one of the butterfly's. However everything seems to work smooth. We bought a rebuild kit for it with new jets and new gaskets.

Installing the Carb would only help about 1/2 of her problems, she has smogger heads from the 80's on the car, so we are going to find a set of late model vortec heads and matching intake. After talking to a local hot rodder, he said the 80's 305's had Horrid heads on them and the Q-Jet aka Quadra Junk did little to help the situation. I was hoping for her to gain maybe 30-40hp with new good heads a good Carb. He said probably more like 100hp over what she has now. Which is going to kinda suck, for me as she is then going to be able to make my 4.9 5spd look like I am standing still. LOL.

Well here are the pics of the Carb.

Can anyone give me any details on it. I know very little about carberated engines. I have a friend that is going to help with the rebuild, but I would like to put together as much info as I can, just so I know whats going on and don't end up working blind.













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85GT,93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Factory Stock.

[This message has been edited by Capt Fiero (edited 04-18-2008).]

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tesmith66
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Report this Post04-18-2008 01:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tesmith66Send a Private Message to tesmith66Direct Link to This Post
At first glance, that looks like a universal 600 CFM with vacuum secondaries (LIST #1850). There is a number on the choke horn with the wor LIST stamped nest to it. Go to http://www.holley.com/TechService/ with that number and learn everything you ever wanted to know about the carb.

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ca420
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Report this Post04-18-2008 01:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ca420Send a Private Message to ca420Direct Link to This Post
There should be a model number on it like 4150 or so and you can find out what CFM it is. Been a long time since I messed with one, I run an Edelbrock on my Camaro. Should be a good carb if everything cleans up good and it is tuned right.
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Capt Fiero
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Report this Post04-18-2008 01:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroDirect Link to This Post
Ok on the back of the choke horn, it says

LIST 1850-3 and below it 2168

All we want it to do is support 240-250hp. She does not need any more power than that. Most importantly the car needs to run smooth from idle to about 4500 rpms for daily driveability. We tried to get it to pass emissions with the current setup and it was REALLY close to passing. It failed by a slight margin on the idle test, however on the chassie dyno it did perfect and passed better than the V6 specs it was allowed.
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Report this Post04-18-2008 01:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManClick Here to Email JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManDirect Link to This Post
Yep, right below the list number stamped on the air horn is a manufacturer date code, it's a Julian date code. First three digits are the number of the day 1-365 of the year and fourth digit is year. That one looks pretty rough, but at least it doesn't look like it's burned. I would get a Trick Kit from Holley, it has not only all the regular rebuild parts but also an assortment of tuning parts so that you can tailor the carb to your engine. The 1850's, which is what that looks like, are very generically tuned from the factory and no telling what's been changed since then. Big consideration: Holly's will blow the powervalve with one fairly small backfire and the result will be liquid fuel running into the carb bore uncontrolled. The trick kit comes with several different powervalves. Another trick: Oil one side of the float bowl gasket and metering block gasket with a very, very thin layer of olive oil, that makes those parts removable without having to replace them every time.

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Capt Fiero
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Report this Post04-18-2008 02:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroDirect Link to This Post
Well it serves me right for not checking the packaging.

We were at the Huge Portland Auto Swap meet while we were in Oregon. We found a guy selling carbs, we asked if he by chance had a rebuild kit for a Holley 600cfm carb. He asked a few questions and then handed us this and swapped the jets out of the package and gave us different ones.

I am just today took a close look at it and it says it is for 750cfm carbs. Frack, I don't think this is going to work for our carb. So we are out the 35 bucks we gave him for it.



[This message has been edited by Capt Fiero (edited 04-18-2008).]

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Capt Fiero
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Report this Post04-18-2008 02:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:

Yep, right below the list number stamped on the air horn is a manufacturer date code, it's a Julian date code. First three digits are the number of the day 1-365 of the year and fourth digit is year. That one looks pretty rough, but at least it doesn't look like it's burned. I would get a Trick Kit from Holley, it has not only all the regular rebuild parts but also an assortment of tuning parts so that you can tailor the carb to your engine. The 1850's, which is what that looks like, are very generically tuned from the factory and no telling what's been changed since then. Big consideration: Holly's will blow the powervalve with one fairly small backfire and the result will be liquid fuel running into the carb bore uncontrolled. The trick kit comes with several different powervalves. Another trick: Oil one side of the float bowl gasket and metering block gasket with a very, very thin layer of olive oil, that makes those parts removable without having to replace them every time.

JazzMan


Thanks for the tip, however I don't even which one is the float bowl gasket or metering block. I can do a head swap on a 2.8 Fiero motor almost with my eyes closed, I can tear my 4.9 apart and put it back together, however when it comes to SBC stuff I have never actually done anything aside from change plugs in one. My first car was a Ford with a 351 in it and I don't think I ever even changed the oil in it. After that, car, all my cars were small engine sports cars. Mercury Capri, VW Bugs and VW Buses and then finally into Fiero's where I have been for the last 14 years. This is truly going to be a learning experience for me.

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Arns85GT
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Report this Post04-18-2008 03:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTClick Here to Email Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTDirect Link to This Post
Before you start rebuilding, let me tell you my tale of woe.

I bought a used 4160 that looked way better than that one. I took it to a pro for a dip and strip and he told me not to waste my money that it was good to go.

Well....... While at the dealership for some work, the mechanic, a good friend, hit the gas and the secondary float valve stuck open, (varnish) and gas spirted out of the vent tube and onto the manifold - poof!!

I had a fire. So, I bought a rebuild from the Holley custom shop. Best $300 I ever spent.

Rebuilding a carb with tricks involved is not for the neophyte. The Holley rebuilds are shipped all ready set for supporting the hp you want. I heartily recommend using the current boat anchor for a core credit and getting a rebuild. Just my .02

Arn

Edit, keep that choke linkage for the manual choke and the vacuum secondary pot which is designed to facilitate quick changes on you vac springs.

[This message has been edited by Arns85GT (edited 04-18-2008).]

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JazzMan
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Report this Post04-18-2008 06:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManClick Here to Email JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManDirect Link to This Post
In this picture:



You can see that there's a part on both the left and right ends that's connected by the silver tube, those parts are the float bowls. Float bowls hold a fixed amount of fuel, as fuel is fed into the intake air the level of fuel drops and a float, much like the float in your toilet tank, lowers and allows more fuel to enter the bowl. The purpose for regulating the level of fuel in the bowl so precisely is to keep the weight of fuel pressing against the jets fairly constant.

Now look at the left float bowl in the above picture, you'll see that there's a spacer between it and the carb body but not one on the right. The primary jets are in that spacer, or block, and it's called the metering block (because it's a block and it meters fuel, hehehe.) The powervalves also screw into that block IIRC.

For more info on Holley carbs, and for reference yours is a vacuum secondary square bore with manual choke (upgrade to electric, you'll be so happy), check out Amazon for this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Holle...id=1208558841&sr=8-1

and/or this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Holle...id=1208558841&sr=8-4

The first is more in depth, the second more for mechanical beginners.

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Capt Fiero
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Report this Post04-18-2008 09:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroDirect Link to This Post


Thank You VERY MUCH. I had not noticed the spacer on the one side, so that is where the jets go. I always here about people putting this jet or that jet into a carb, but never really knew where they went. So if it has an electric choke, what powers it? Is there some place that I hook power to it? I know these questions should be kindergarten mechanics class.

I just checked my rating on you and looks like I never gave you a positive, so here ya go, by the looks of it, you don't need it, but its an extra one anyway.

Thank You again for all your info.
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Arns85GT
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Report this Post04-18-2008 10:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTClick Here to Email Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTDirect Link to This Post
If you want the electric choke (personally I don't like them), you can use the white power wire that feeds the injectors. It comes from the power cluster beside the battery.

Not all Holleys have jets on the secondary side. For instance, the 4160. It uses a metering plate which substitutes a cheaper means than the metering block the 4150 uses. You can buy metering plates of different "jet" sizes also. You can also buy conversion kits to use the metering block with jets.

On my 4160, I converted it to a metering block with jets that I could replace or experiment with.

As I mentioned, most Holleys are already set for a particular hp or engine volume. The Holley shop will tell you which carb model is suitable for your particular engine.

If you have an SBC, I personally wouldn't use the side mount float bowls as in the carb in the pic. I would get the center hung double pumper. That way, the float will not give false readings when you turn hard right.

The 600 double pumper is generally a good carb for a 350 ci.

Hope this helps.

Arn
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project34
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Report this Post04-19-2008 01:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for project34Send a Private Message to project34Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Capt Fiero:
Ok on the back of the choke horn, it says
LIST 1850-3 and below it 2168
All we want it to do is support 240-250hp.

"LIST 1850" indicates the carburetor flows 600 CFM, has vacuum secondaries (usually better for the street than mechanical secondaries), and a mechanical rather than an elecrical choke.

 
quote
Originally posted by Capt Fiero:
So Lisa (FieroChicks) Fiero has a lowly 305...]

The 600 CFM Holley carburetor you have definitely should be adequate for a 305 engine, especially given what else you've mentioned:

 
quote
Originally posted by Capt Fiero:
All we want it to do is support 240-250hp. She does not need any more power than that. Most importantly the car needs to run smooth from idle to about 4500 rpms for daily driveability.

However, the carburetor rebuild kit you purchased unfortunately won't work with this 600-cfm carburetor you've purchased because the packaging for your rebuild kit states right on it: "750CFM only."


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Capt Fiero
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Report this Post04-19-2008 02:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroDirect Link to This Post

Well it looks like we will put the rebuild kit up for sale on Craig's list and try to find a proper one for her carb.


Pluses all around, everyone so far that has replied in this thread got a plus from me. Thank You Everybody.

------------------
85GT,93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Factory Stock.

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Report this Post04-19-2008 08:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonDirect Link to This Post
Just my opinion without knowing how much you want to spend. I never had anything but problems with Holley carbs. They leak around the bowls and feed all the time, require constant figiting with idle and mixture. At a drag strip many years ago, I threw 2 brand new ones on my car out into a corn field. I prefer Carter AVS/AFB's myself. Now same as Edlebrock. I just bought 500cfm one for my Coronet. Bolted it on and cranked it to fill the bowls. I didnt even have to adjust the mixture or idle speed as vacum gauge showed it was already right on the money. I wont have to touch it for the next 15 years. New cost (even with 'chrome' finish) was $245.
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Blue Shift
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Report this Post04-22-2008 12:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Blue ShiftClick Here to Email Blue ShiftSend a Private Message to Blue ShiftDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

Just my opinion without knowing how much you want to spend. I never had anything but problems with Holley carbs. They leak around the bowls and feed all the time, require constant figiting with idle and mixture. At a drag strip many years ago, I threw 2 brand new ones on my car out into a corn field. I prefer Carter AVS/AFB's myself. Now same as Edlebrock. I just bought 500cfm one for my Coronet. Bolted it on and cranked it to fill the bowls. I didnt even have to adjust the mixture or idle speed as vacum gauge showed it was already right on the money. I wont have to touch it for the next 15 years. New cost (even with 'chrome' finish) was $245.


Not to rain on anybodys parade, but my friend who owns one of the biggest carb rebuild shops in CA (Recarbco, Pittsburg) has nothing but hate for Holleys for the same reason. He says they're finicky to tune and make em stay put, and he's been at it for most of his life. They obviously DO work, and there are a million parts or they'd be out of business, but there are better alternatives. I had a Holley DP mechanical secondary carb on my old 307 Chevy in my boat (245HP marine version) and we just couldn't get it to behave and stay put. I brought it in every season to rebuild it yet again. Before you think too poorly of Quadrajets, I have one that's hand assembled from 454 spec parts and live engine tuned (on a test stand) on my current 383 on my boat now... there's no comparison, whatsoever. Due to the air valve design, it doen't overcarb, and will handle anything I do to the engine later. Utter reliability, punchy low end, and balls to the wall top end. NO quadra bog. People tend not to like Quads cuz they're not something that takes well to tuning with a screwdriver and your ears, there's a lot of stuff to adjust if you're setting one up from scratch. Could a race holley give my boat a little more top end? Poooossibly. Would I change to one? No.

Either way it looks like you already have a holley. Unless the QJ is trashed out, I doubt you'll gain any real power from the carb, though an intake and heads change should wake it up nicely.
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Capt Fiero
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Report this Post04-22-2008 12:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroDirect Link to This Post
These pics are crap and I don't know if anyone will be able to tell anything from them, but this is the current setup.







The car runs and nearly passes emissions testing with the current setup, even though, the carb bogs horribly when cold. It gets better as it warms up, but for the first 5min or 5 miles, you can't go over 1/2 throttle without it falling flat on its face. The heads have leaking valve seals so when you lift off on a decel and then get back on it, it puffs a bit of blue. No one knows the last time it had plugs or wires or cap changed. The car sat for nearly 3 years only being fired up long enough to pull it in and out of the shop every few weeks. Lisa and I have only driven it a half dozen times ourselves due to the fact it failed emissions so whenever we drive it, we have to pay a $32 single day temp permit for it.

If you guys really think rebuilding the Q-Jet that is on it, is a worth while considering, I will grab the digital camera out and take some closer pics of it, so you can tell me what make and model q-jet it is. We can always sell the Holley locally.

As for the heads, we are pretty sure we want to do the Vortec Head and intake swap. In the long run, going to a TPI intake would suit her needs the best, but frankly people are asking insane prices for complete TPI setups. Heck I have seen complete Camaro's and Firebirds for sale cheaper than these locals want just for the intakes. (seen it as high as $1200 for a used intake / TB / ECM from a junked Firebirds) I know the TPI won't flow any extreme high HP numbers but all we want is at most 300hp street-able and clean. Lisa (FieroChick) is pretty happy with her hopped up 2.8 V6 and 125C Automatic, so this V8 5spd even in super tame mode will be more than enough.

If you want to see more pics of the car the thread when we bought it is here,

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/063379.html#p0


Thanks Again for all the info regarding Carbs and V8s.
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Icelander
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Report this Post04-22-2008 12:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IcelanderClick Here to Email IcelanderSend a Private Message to IcelanderDirect Link to This Post
I've got a Holley DP sitting in my shop that is in 100% better condition than the one in your pictures. You can have it for free. I'm only a couple of hours south of you maybe we can figure out a way to get it to you.

Personally, I find that the QJ gets the best performance and efficiency but they are a royla b*tch to get tuned correct. There's a guy named Cliff Ruggles out east (US) that takes your engine/driveline/vehicle weight information and rebuilds/tunes your QJ for your application.

This carb has been sitting in my shop for many years and probably needs a new set of gaskets but it came off a running Firebird 400.

Let me know. Drop me a note at whit (at) dubhlinn (dott) com and let me know.

------------------
Kendall (Icelander) Whitlatch
'85 Fiero 2M4 - 5spd Isuzu
'67 LeMans/GTO clone 6.5 litre TH400
All the rest aren't Pontiacs, so what does it matter?

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