Are they still as bad as they were, prone to cracking etc. Reason I asked is I noticed they now offer a 1 5/8" primaries and wondered if anyone has used them and if they perform as well as a set of SLP's?

cracking in headers is due to mounting - not build quality.
if you got sloppy motor mounts, you are gonna crack the headers
if you got loose exhaust mounts, you are gonna crack the headers
no matter who made them

bad mounts are not the cause of ALL the cracks....
I would NOT buy from them, even though I hear that they (wcf) are better than they were on product but not in shipping....

quote Originally posted by revin: bad mounts are not the cause of ALL the cracks.... I would NOT buy from them, even though I hear that they (wcf) are better than they were on product but not in shipping....

of course not. but it surely is the MOST common cause.
the exhaust is held in place. the motor moves.
the intake uses a rubber snorkle to compensate.
the exhaust only gets that stiff y-pipe/downpipe joint.

Trueleo is the best header for the V6 fiero by dyno test and fiero owner test,,MAKE SURE YOU CHECK THESE HEADERS OUT BEFORE ANY PURCHASE .. Trueleo did the research FOR FIERO engine and came up with a far superior product.. I do not own trueleo headers my self.. just check back on forum
bad mounts can lead to header or manifold damage , the springs mounting system should be retained

[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 04-17-2008).]

...try installing a flex joint in the exhaust to allow for movement. I think the biggest problem with cracks in any exhaust sytem is that the muffler/cat/etc are allowed of move, but the manifolds are hard mounted to the head - so you have the mufler/etc "bouncing" from rough roads/etc putting strain on the manifolds - something is bound to give...

...anyways, here is an example of part I am talking about: http://www.pacesetterexhaust.com/perf_exhaust.php

Oops maybe I should have specified. I meant the "new" design WCF 3800SC headers. Now please repeat responses. LOL

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: cracking in headers is due to mounting - not build quality. if you got sloppy motor mounts, you are gonna crack the headers if you got loose exhaust mounts, you are gonna crack the headers no matter who made them

whatever, I was told that cheese as well, and I had all new mounts on my car - manifold still cracked. I will not buy from WCF ever again. Not only did the manifolds crack, but because of the way he made them I can not get a socket over some of the bolts, making it a major pain to get them off. That and it took forever to get my stuff, after countless emails and agravating him.

Just ordered trueleo headers - he replied same day with questions as to what exactly I wanted, had them to me the next week. I don't have them on yet, but I am already happy with the service.

[This message has been edited by Madess (edited 04-17-2008).]

madess what do you have a 2.8 or 3.8?

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Parts for your FWD GM 97-07
Morad Parts Company
Moradpartscompany

2.8 (actually 3.4, but same thing)

I will admit I do not have and have not used any of his parts for 3.8 - but from a customer service stand point, I will just not deal with him again.

[This message has been edited by Madess (edited 04-17-2008).]

I got some and they look pretty decent but I will admit that the service was terrible. It took nine months to get them. I also ordered a ps delete from them and they waited to send that with the headers. They built the ps delete wrong and it took a few more weeks to get one from somewhere else. 10 MONTHS! I called them every other day. I will never buy anything from them ever again.

Ryan

Have used their headers on two 3800SC builds because the customer supplied them and will never work with them again. They are poorly made in that they do not line up any where near where they should and are of too small a pipe any ways.
Just like I have stated before the problem with WCF's stuff is as simple as the clown making them. Dan

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Signature compliments of F-I-E-R-O
2003 3800SC series II powered
www.photosled.com/showgallery.php/cat/631
www.photosled.com/showgallery/cat/1583

well once again I will go out on a limb here and support WCF. I have talked with them several times over the phone , they have always been more than willing to share there knowledge and know how with me. I also purchased there Poly all around and coil over kit. I had no issue with shipping or quality what so ever.

Just my 2 cents

Skip the WCF headers and use a set of PEMs or P-Log from ZZP. Whatever you use, spend the money to have them coated.

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Skip the WCF headers and use a set of PEMs or P-Log from ZZP. Whatever you use, spend the money to have them coated.

--------

How would you find PEM's or P-log from ZZP.... Do you have a link for this vendor?

-----

I like WCF... They are nice to talk to about different obstacles to look out for. I've been to one of there BBQs too. The new shop in Tehachapi is really nice and clean. They also say to buy stainless steel headers instead of the regular steel to somewhat avoid cracking. I want stainless for myself and then I'll send them to JetHot coating. I haven't bought anything through them though. One reason is that I would want 1 3/4" headers instead of 1 1/2". I've heard through other vendors that the 1 1/2" is a little too small and they recommend 1 5/8".... I like TruLeo too but they won't make them in stainless..... NOW WHAT DO YOU DO?

I WANT MINE TO LOOK LIKE ----- these are for a Monte Carlo but you can see the quality ----FRIGGIN NICE!

http://www.zzperformance.com/grand_prix/index.php

Here is ZZPs website:

Very good vendor to buy from and fast on shipping.

quote Originally posted by unboundmo: -------- How would you find PEM's or P-log from ZZP.... Do you have a link for this vendor? ----- I like WCF... They are nice to talk to about different obstacles to look out for. I've been to one of there BBQs too. The new shop in Tehachapi is really nice and clean. They also say to buy stainless steel headers instead of the regular steel to somewhat avoid cracking. I want stainless for myself and then I'll send them to JetHot coating. I haven't bought anything through them though. One reason is that I would want 1 3/4" headers instead of 1 1/2". I've heard through other vendors that the 1 1/2" is a little too small and they recommend 1 5/8".... I like TruLeo too but they won't make them in stainless..... NOW WHAT DO YOU DO? I WANT MINE TO LOOK LIKE ----- these are for a Monte Carlo but you can see the quality ----FRIGGIN NICE!

I had WCF headers that I bought from Chris back in, lets see somewhere around 2000 or 2001.

I had two problems with them. 1) I discovered that the down flange from the crossover pipe was too long and interfered with my ability to have a CAT in the stock location. I had to trim off 3 inches of the flange pipe and redo the end to make the CAT high enough from the ground. The problem is I had them coated before I discovered this. It was a royal pain in the butt to weld and grind after they were coated. After finished, I used a flex coupler and never had any cracking on the quality of the welds or in the exhaust system. 2) second problem was with the original position of the flange. It had one of its three points pointed at the heat sheild or firewall (cab side). It would have been better to have the points of the flange pointed in such a way as to be away from the firewall side.

I would say the quality of headers boils down to who the person is welding and fabbing the headers. If you have different people on the same part, not everyone does the same workmanship. One year you have a guy that does great. He leaves and you have to fill his position. The next guy may not pay attention to detail like the first guy and you miss it. The best way to maintain quality is to always fit the headers and look them over before they are ship. That way you have consistency with product and you personally know they are good before you sell them.

quote Originally posted by Madess: whatever, I was told that cheese as well, and I had all new mounts on my car - manifold still cracked. I will not buy from WCF ever again.

Gee, all these busted up headers (mine too) and in each case, it's not WCF's fault. What a shocker.

John Stricker

think what ya like. even stock manifolds crack. WCF does custom work - so - yes - there will be inconsistancy. being there have not been many options for headers many people got WCF headers - and - due to the fact that 100% cant be perfect - yes - some have experienced cracks. I fully understand the frustration.

WCF is not Edelbrock or APC - they are a small custom shop. making parts for a TINY market. they are not a re-seller like TFS. I dont know what happened to y'all who have had bad experiences - but I have not. I dont do a whole lot of business with them - but what business I have done with them over the 10 years I've been Fiero'ing have all been good. and, yes - I do have their headers. and their poly motor mounts - and they are just fine.

but - again - being a custom shop - I completely beleive that people have had troubles. not calling ya liars or that ya are overreacting - I'm sure the parts failed as described.

I have no use for their parts and have stated many times how bad they are the headers that crack, don't line up and my favourite high priced stainless steel headers that stick to magnets are not the only problems. Every product they make that I have seen is poorly made and way over priced and I don't car how small or how large a business is if you are selling a product that does not work as advertised you either fix the problem or stop selling the product.
There has been too many vendors on here getting away with ripping off people for too long with many afraid to speak up for fear of being banned or flamed by many blind followers.
fraud is fraud no matter how you look at it if it is selling a lousy product that is not as advertised or not delivering products as promised or guaranteed is also fraud and years later saying it is ok I am now in contact with the customer now and straightening things out still is not acceptable and should not be tolerated. Dan

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: think what ya like. even stock manifolds crack. WCF does custom work - so - yes - there will be inconsistancy. being there have not been many options for headers many people got WCF headers - and - due to the fact that 100% cant be perfect - yes - some have experienced cracks. I fully understand the frustration. WCF is not Edelbrock or APC - they are a small custom shop. making parts for a TINY market. they are not a re-seller like TFS. I dont know what happened to y'all who have had bad experiences - but I have not. I dont do a whole lot of business with them - but what business I have done with them over the 10 years I've been Fiero'ing have all been good. and, yes - I do have their headers. and their poly motor mounts - and they are just fine. but - again - being a custom shop - I completely beleive that people have had troubles. not calling ya liars or that ya are overreacting - I'm sure the parts failed as described.

I completely understand, my biggest problem is customer service, not quality. if he would have said, my bad, we had a bad run of parts, or bad welds or whatever and offered to replace or reweld or offered something instead of - "your mounts are bad, our stuff is good".

I sell stuff all the time in the mall - I am not a "business" per se, but part of selling things is customer service. if someone has a problem with a part I sold them I try to make it right. If I took way to long to ship it, because I got busy, I give away free stuff or partial refunds.

[This message has been edited by Madess (edited 04-18-2008).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by FIEROFLYER:


There has been too many vendors on here getting away with ripping off people for too long with many afraid to speak up for fear of being banned or flamed by many blind followers.

----------
I second... That vendor ZZP has them CHEAP! If someone has the jig or mold and tacking is so easy to them then why the high prices? Especially the fiberglass molds. Be reasonable people.....

quote Originally posted by unboundmo: [QUOTE]Originally posted by FIEROFLYER: There has been too many vendors on here getting away with ripping off people for too long with many afraid to speak up for fear of being banned or flamed by many blind followers. ---------- I second... That vendor ZZP has them CHEAP! If someone has the jig or mold and tacking is so easy to them then why the high prices? Especially the fiberglass molds. Be reasonable people.....

Hey, ban me or flame me I don't care.

Good vendors
Fiero Store - little expensive, but Friendly, good support and fast shipping - I ordered the ocelot exhaust from them - didn't get the tips, called back, said no problem shipped out, no extra cost, and arrived in two days

Rodney Dickman - just made a special trip to overnight me a part

the Fiero Factory - Ed has bent over backwards for me.

Trueleo - everything arrives quickly with parts and instructions.

Bad vendors
So far, just west coast fiero's

and Sears - but that is another story.

I saw a set of headers that had been returned to WCF with the owner claiming they cracked due to having poor welds. On closer inspection the headers were bent and creased from hitting something in the engine bay; probably the trunk or the firewall. Of course, they went on to post here about how none of it was there fault...
I think a lot of people don't realize how important is to not only have good stiff mounts but also that a properly engineered dogbone is a necessity. If the motor moves a lot of COURSE the exhaust system is going to be stressed.

Maybe they were mine? If that's who you're talking about, then say so. You say it's because the engine was moving? Huh. It also had WCF Poly engine and trans mounts, as well as poly in the stock dogbone. So if it was moving, they WCF Parts were letting it move. And it's damn peculiar that the STOCK manifolds never had an issue. Ever. In the same car, with the same mounts.

I wasn't happy that they broke, but when Chris told me (and he only called after I threatened legal action) that I had hit something, then I was ticked. I took pictures of the entire exhaust systme before I took their POS headers off and it didn't have a nick or scratch on them. Tell me, what can you hit with the exhaust hard enough to break BOTH collector rings off, crack the tubes, and fail the welds, that doesn't leave a mark on the rest of the exhaust?

Nothing is EVER WCF's fault, it's always the customer, at least according to them. Glad you have good luck with them. Isn't it amazing how the people that are close enough to actually GO to the shop seem to have better luck with their parts than those that are half a continent or more away? How peculiar.

Oh, BTW, I have every email from them, and pictures of the headers as they were removed from the car, as well as the pictures of the exhaust system if you doubt me on any of this.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Steven Snyder: I saw a set of headers that had been returned to WCF with the owner claiming they cracked due to having poor welds. On closer inspection the headers were bent and creased from hitting something in the engine bay; probably the trunk or the firewall. Of course, they went on to post here about how none of it was there fault... I think a lot of people don't realize how important is to not only have good stiff mounts but also that a properly engineered dogbone is a necessity. If the motor moves a lot of COURSE the exhaust system is going to be stressed.

quote Originally posted by Madess: whatever, I was told that cheese as well, and I had all new mounts on my car - manifold still cracked. I will not buy from WCF ever again. Not only did the manifolds crack, but because of the way he made them I can not get a socket over some of the bolts, making it a major pain to get them off. That and it took forever to get my stuff, after countless emails and agravating him. Just ordered trueleo headers - he replied same day with questions as to what exactly I wanted, had them to me the next week. I don't have them on yet, but I am already happy with the service.

Madess,

The WCF 60 degree headers are designed to be used in conjunction with Allen-Head cap screws. This is due to the increased primary diameter (compared to stock) not allowing room for a standard socket and factory fasteners.

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Recanizin' Flat-Buns Since 2001

Eric Nelson
Internet Sales Manager
Power Ford Valencia
nelsone@autonation.com

i got the trueleo headers, the welds are good and solid and just hearing them clang togeahter you can tell the harmonics thru the metal are good, no thin spots or anything. im running them with header wrap and drive the crap ot of the car and havent had any problems yet, if they were going to crack then it would have happened by now. just make sure you dont have any misfires or run lean to bring up the egts. i have been worried several times about starting the car up in the rain since the header wrap gets wet after the car has been sitting in the rain for a while. i can see that causing a crack but thats not their fault, or wcf. but lots of people say the wcf headers were no good and they cost more than trueleo so i didnt get em. im probably going to get an exhasut from wcf just because theyre the only ones who can make one ready out of the box wihtout dropping the car off to have one custom made, though i will price shop.

as for trueleo headers being dyno tuned, i dont think they nor anyone here has done a dyno pull with them before and after, could be wrong. id be interested in the results.

Wow this is turning into a very informative thread! O.K. so now lets talk about flow. Obviously TOG's are king but do WCF's flow like crap too and how does their flow compare to say truleo, pacesetter.......etc. Another thing that has been confusing the crap out of me is a read everywhere that TOG closed down, yet they still have a website up like you could go in and order any time you want. Whats up with that?

ZZP is almost done with their headers, might want to keep an eye out for them they are suppose to be sweet!

If the discussion is based upon 3800 headers let me throw in this morsel of info...

The WCF 3800 headers main function is to retain the factory routing of the exhaust system in order to supply room for a catalytic converter - for those who have or may have smog compliance guidlines to face when it comes time to smog the vehicle. Also, one of the primary intentions for the design utilizing factory routing is to retain the truck compartment

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Recanizin' Flat-Buns Since 2001

Eric Nelson
Internet Sales Manager
Power Ford Valencia
nelsone@autonation.com

I have WCF 3800 headers and never had any problems with them. I probably had them on my car longer than most of you out there too. Great product! I have had great service from them as well.

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Red 88 GT T-Top 3800 INTERCOOLED SUPERCHARGED


Click here to read the History of Skitimes Car

Not to be off topic but i got some stuff from wcf i got there poly mounts and 3800 steel flywheel for a 5spd, and it all fit great and was well made (just got the car running so i'm saying that from an apperance stand point). but i have ot say that it took longer then a 7 year itch to get the stuff and it was always one thing or another that held up my order. now this was during their move so i understand a back up from that, but don't promise what you can't realisticly deliver. so i have mixed feelings with them they were slow to ship but they have been there to answer my questions when i call, and they are the ones that helped me make my descion to swap the 3800 they cleared up some misconseptions that i had about the swap and their info was dead on so i guess that i would use them again if i needed parts.

for what its worth
Ant

yeah you cant have an operation like they do for a fairly unpopular car without knowing what youre doing and doing it right. every shop has something that sucks and yet they keep doing it. if only theyd e-mail me back about my exhaust....

just checked on the ZZPerformance headers they are going to have 1 3/4" primaries according to zzp..........

What headers are ZZP working on? 2.8-3.4 or 3800. Can't tell from the tread, we seem at different times talking about one or the other.

here is a quick mixup of the w-body headers

http://www.wbodystore.com/g...ight-for-me-a-7.html

Well according to that chart Pacesetters seem to be the best choice for heavily modded suppercharged engines as they have large collectors and primaries to match TOG's yet are like 350-500 dollars cheaper. So can sombody explain to me why everyone is paying so much and claiming TOG's are best. I wonder what ZZP is running on the infamous 9 sec car?

bump

quote Originally posted by Khaos88GT: Well according to that chart Pacesetters seem to be the best choice for heavily modded suppercharged engines as they have large collectors and primaries to match TOG's yet are like 350-500 dollars cheaper. So can sombody explain to me why everyone is paying so much and claiming TOG's are best. I wonder what ZZP is running on the infamous 9 sec car?

I would love to know as well

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Recanizin' Flat-Buns Since 2001

Eric Nelson
Internet Sales Manager
Power Ford Valencia
nelsone@autonation.com