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Intermitant starting by redraif
Started on: 04-12-2008 10:51 PM
Replies: 21
Last post by: redraif on 04-28-2008 10:08 AM
redraif
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Report this Post04-12-2008 10:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifClick Here to Email redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
1984 2.5l indy...

So I'm trying my best to figure or why I keep chasing this mystery start no start. My guess is the starter has an intermitant issue. I can get it to fire up with no problem drive park start up drive around some more. Then it will just not crank. Not even try, no click no nothing. So I turn the key off and on. After a few times it usually fires up. The last time I drove it we took it to a show and it was dead after. I figured it was due to the doors being open. So we jumped it. That worked. The we drove it 15 min and I went to a resturant and it died again. Jumping it did not help. I let the car roll back and we rocked it a few times & it fired up. Once I got it home the car sat.

So today we took the battery to be charged & found it to be dead, so I got a new one. I was prepared to test it to see if the starter tests would give me any info and I noticed there was a bracket that was not on the starter. It is the one that is on the passenger side. It has a cup that goes around the bump on the starter and then there is a small stud on the starter that goes thru a hole in the bracket. This stud it broken and the braket is just sort of hovering and not making contact with the remnants of the stud. There are no threads left. I assume the starter uses all the mounting points for its ground. Is this little stud another ground? Could it be the source of my woe? Oddly after I got the car all ready to test, would you believe it started perfect 6 times? UGH!

Extra background...I have upgraded all my grounds to larger wire, cleaned the mounting points and changed hardware. All battery terminals are tight, clean & new with good threads. The power terminal on the starter is tight. Starter has a blanket for heat soak protection. New battery...

Also the car keeps killing batteries if it sits for a long time. Not just draining, killing battery cells. I have no lights that are staying on in the interior or trunk. Could that stupid little starter stud be the source of the draw?

------------------
"I'm just a girl..."
1984 Indy Fiero Pace Car
1987 Red & Black Firebird: "RAIF" WEBSITE: www.redraif.com
OTHER CARSí WEBSITES:
1982 Trans AM / 1990 Chevy Dually / 1976 Scout II / 1987 Nissan Pulsar

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Toaster_Man
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Report this Post04-13-2008 01:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Toaster_ManClick Here to Email Toaster_ManSend a Private Message to Toaster_ManDirect Link to This Post
It sounds to me like your starter motor is going bad. In the old days you could temporarily "fix" that by beating on the starter with the tire iron, but really it just needs to be replaced.
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redraif
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Report this Post04-13-2008 09:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifClick Here to Email redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
Now the question is...will Autozone take it back since it's not completely dead. It's got a lifetime warranty, but I'm concerned that because it's not completely fried, they won't take it yet.....
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Genopsyde
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Report this Post04-14-2008 12:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GenopsydeClick Here to visit Genopsyde's HomePageSend a Private Message to GenopsydeDirect Link to This Post
also check and make sure that the positive junction block that is to the right of the battery (if looking from the driver side) is tight. I had a very similar problem with another GM vehicle and that ended up being the cause of it. Also my 86 fiero would not start at all and it ended up being in the smaller gauge wire that connects to the starter solenoid.
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intlcutlass
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Report this Post04-14-2008 04:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for intlcutlassClick Here to Email intlcutlassSend a Private Message to intlcutlassDirect Link to This Post
Just double check to make sure all your connections are good and firm.

If that fails, then I would suspect you have a flat spot worn on your starter.
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redraif
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Report this Post04-16-2008 09:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifClick Here to Email redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
So do you think that Autozone would warranty an intermittent starter? Because from what I can tell, all of the wires are tight, and the wire from the solenoid to the starter is solid and intact.
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JazzMan
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Report this Post04-16-2008 01:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManClick Here to Email JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManDirect Link to This Post
If the starter has an intermittent problem then it's defective, starters are designed to work all the time, not most of the time.

Take it back, they'll take care of it.

JazzMan
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KurtAKX
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Report this Post04-16-2008 01:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KurtAKXSend a Private Message to KurtAKXDirect Link to This Post
Alternatively, you could remove it from the car and MAKE it permanently dead, so it won't pass their test.

I am not saying this is ethical, but what you could do is pull the cap off the solenoid and cut the wire that goes to the solenoid windings.

In the old days when people weren't so wasteful you could get just the starter or just the solenoid, but these days at AZ if the solenoid is puked, they'll just toss you another motor.

Good luck!
Kurt

Have you already wirebrushed the crap out of your battery cables where they mount to the battery? When it won't even try to start, what else happens? Does the blower fan shut off? Do the interior lights work?
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redraif
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Report this Post04-16-2008 02:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifClick Here to Email redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
Radiator fan comes on, interior lights come on, fuel pump engages and there is absolutely 100% NO corrosion at all on the battery cables.
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Report this Post04-16-2008 02:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManClick Here to Email JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManDirect Link to This Post
Also, tilt the wheel up and down while trying to start it. If that changes anything then the ignition switch is out of adjustment, it's easy to adjust it.

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redraif
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Report this Post04-23-2008 12:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifClick Here to Email redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
So I finally got around to messing with the start issue again...Well the car was still starting fine after sitting. ugh! So I decided to pull the starter as suggested.

As I got the 2 bolts out and the bracket swung out of the way I gently pulled the starter out of place. What I got was hit in the face by a bunch of little pebble looking things. Turns out to be a bunch of metal. I shook the starter and the stuff poured out. Guess that was the issue? It came out of the case so I assume the inside was falling apart. The metal seemed soft and some pieces looked like there was bits of wire in it. The metal did not seemed hardened, as I would expect, if it was from the flywheel. I did not see any missing teeth on the starter gear nor the exposed flywheel teeth.

Also there was no shim. Does there have to be a shim and where should it normally go? If there is supposed to be one where would I get a replacement and how would I know what thinkness it should be? I don't want to kill the new one!

------------------
"I'm just a girl..."
1984 Indy Fiero Pace Car
1987 Red & Black Firebird: "RAIF" WEBSITE: www.redraif.com
OTHER CARSí WEBSITES:
1982 Trans AM / 1990 Chevy Dually / 1976 Scout II / 1987 Nissan Pulsar

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redraif
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Report this Post04-23-2008 10:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifClick Here to Email redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
OMG...

This car is going to be the death of me....

I have the new clutch in. no issues all the lines are tight. OK with the butt still in the air I started the car 4 times. Perfect each time!

So I lower the car to the ground. I get in it to start... NO START.....UUUGGGHHH!!!!

SO Tried a few times. 3rd time it fired up. Ran just fine. Then I tried again. NOTHING. So I tried what was suggested about the steering column.... It had no effect. & times no start.

OK so I took advantage of the time I had to listen to what the car does. Let me describe...
~Turn the key on to accessory position... step on the clutch...Fan comes on (I hotwired due to previous owner wire & switch distruction)... lights are on inside... fuel pump primes...
~Turn the key to try to start... NADA Just a click in the back and the fan power shuts off for as long as I have the key held in the start position.
~Let go of the key (back to access.) the fan comes back on...
~Try again same as above...

I just went out to verify my description... 2 times no start, then it starts and 2 times again...
WTF?

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ly41181
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Report this Post04-24-2008 02:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ly41181Click Here to Email ly41181Send a Private Message to ly41181Direct Link to This Post
Mine used to do that and this fixed it:

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/090390.html

Mine starts everytime now.

If you go that far then do this for your 84:

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/090401.html

Hope this helps.
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Report this Post04-24-2008 02:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for brandon87gtClick Here to Email brandon87gtSend a Private Message to brandon87gtDirect Link to This Post
I've had this problem more than once. Once it was the ignition switch as shown in the post above and the last time, like a week ago it was the battery. Do you have a meter so you can check your battery voltage and maybe do some troubleshooting to check to see where your drain is coming from?

 
quote
Originally posted by redraif:

OMG...

This car is going to be the death of me....

I have the new clutch in. no issues all the lines are tight. OK with the butt still in the air I started the car 4 times. Perfect each time!

So I lower the car to the ground. I get in it to start... NO START.....UUUGGGHHH!!!!

SO Tried a few times. 3rd time it fired up. Ran just fine. Then I tried again. NOTHING. So I tried what was suggested about the steering column.... It had no effect. & times no start.

OK so I took advantage of the time I had to listen to what the car does. Let me describe...
~Turn the key on to accessory position... step on the clutch...Fan comes on (I hotwired due to previous owner wire & switch distruction)... lights are on inside... fuel pump primes...
~Turn the key to try to start... NADA Just a click in the back and the fan power shuts off for as long as I have the key held in the start position.
~Let go of the key (back to access.) the fan comes back on...
~Try again same as above...

I just went out to verify my description... 2 times no start, then it starts and 2 times again...
WTF?


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Report this Post04-24-2008 07:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinjobClick Here to Email JustinjobSend a Private Message to JustinjobDirect Link to This Post
Next time it doesnt start, try tapping on the side of the starter with a screwdriver handle, thats an old trick that usully works on starters that are going bad. I had a bad one in my fiero for about 6 months, every time it did the same thing to me as yours is, i would get down underneath it and tap on it and then it would work fine for the next ten starts or so!

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redraif
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Report this Post04-24-2008 09:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifClick Here to Email redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
Battery is not the culprit, as it is brand new. But even new can be bad i guess. Problem is I don't have a voltage meter. I can get one from Autozone. But then, I have never used one, so I really have no idea what to do. Any good how to articles on how to use one?

From there where should I start checking? When I got this car the previous owner had replaced the positive battery cable. Also they had replaced all the starter wires with seemingly miles of red 10 guage wire. So I have no factory wores coming off the starter. So I can't check by color... When I first got the car I went through the lines as the guy had literaly wrapped them all around the suspension and frame. I tried to check them for any weak spots or cuts and then route them cleanly. I removed about 10 feet of extra if I remember right. All the connectors look solid and have been wrapped up in my starter blanket. There is no corrosion. The car worked great for about 6 monthes before this issue came up. But it always drain the battery if it sat for 2 wks or more. Seems the previous owner had his hand in everything electrical. He had the wiring on the Drivers side all screwed up and nothing is where it should be. I have a wire over there that is clipped and I can't figure out what it even is. I wish I had a duke nearby to play find that wire with. LOL

I guess as much as I did not want to I guess its a safe bet to replace the switch. Thanks for the link to the How to. You made it look easy! I also had no idea why my temp guage has been pegged and stays pegged. I just bought an aftermarket one! LOL! But I guess I will do some fixing to that as well.

[This message has been edited by redraif (edited 04-24-2008).]

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redraif
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Report this Post04-24-2008 11:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifClick Here to Email redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
Any ideas on the reason behind it starting perfect with the tail was in the air? Just a big coincidence?

[This message has been edited by redraif (edited 04-24-2008).]

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ly41181
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Report this Post04-24-2008 01:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ly41181Click Here to Email ly41181Send a Private Message to ly41181Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by redraif:

Any ideas on the reason behind it starting perfect with the tail was in the air? Just a big coincidence?



I'd say it was coincidence. Mine would start great for a week, then I'd have to hurry to work and "click". If the previous owner did some wireing changes, you might look around the steering column to see if any "modifications" were done. I have an after market alarm system on my car that someone put in. It's all butt connectors and a birdnest of wires.
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redraif
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Report this Post04-24-2008 02:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifClick Here to Email redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
Guess I will find out for sure when I swap the switch. As far as I know he did not do anything that elaborate. The car had been sitting for 8 years based on the last dated insurance car that was in it. Anyone who let an Indy get in this condition did not care about it enough to add an alarm. From what I could see when we looked around to trace guage wires the stock wiring in the car is intact except for the neutral safety switch. It has been bypassed. (the purple & yellow wire around the petal)

Guess I have some piece of mind that the car ran great for a while with his mess and kept running well as I fixed the red rats nest, so it should not be the main culprit.

Im gonna have a new car by the time I'm done swapping
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redraif
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Report this Post04-25-2008 03:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifClick Here to Email redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ly41181:

If you go that far then do this for your 84:

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/090401.html

Hope this helps.



I was looking at the thread again... I hope to play around with this tonight or this weekend. Got the ignition switch last night. Wow they need some decent parts people at Autozone. I hate debating with them everytime I go in there about why I need the part! UGH! I miss my old Autozone.

Anyway I was going to tackle the temp guage as well. I was confused on one part. For the fix in our 84s... because the oil and temp share the curcuit... I want to be sure I have the info right... the only thing we need to do is just pull the double wire, be it G1 or G2? The rest is not necessary? We don't even need to mess with the sensor wires?

[This message has been edited by redraif (edited 04-25-2008).]

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redraif
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Report this Post04-25-2008 11:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifClick Here to Email redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
Ok now I'm dumbfounded.

I installed the new switch. even did the temp gauge fix. I installed the switch tightened it up. Checked the alignment. All seemed well I hooked up the battery. Crossed my fingers and fired it up. It worked... 10 times it worked. Then I thought i was safe and started to push the column back in place & gave it one last fire before I installed the brackets...


Here we go again. Same thing. NO start. I loosened the fasteners on the switch adn tried to adjust it. It worked I tightened. It worked a few times then it did not. Over adn over this repeated for a half hour.

So now what???

Guess I go buy a meter & start taking numbers?

Any thoughts?

------------------
"I'm just a girl..."
1984 Indy Fiero Pace Car
1987 Red & Black Firebird: "RAIF" WEBSITE: www.redraif.com
OTHER CARSí WEBSITES:
1982 Trans AM / 1990 Chevy Dually / 1976 Scout II / 1987 Nissan Pulsar

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redraif
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Report this Post04-28-2008 10:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for redraifClick Here to Email redraifSend a Private Message to redraifDirect Link to This Post
My problem continues here, please help! Car still does not run.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/091214.html

------------------
"I'm just a girl..."
1984 Indy Fiero Pace Car
1987 Red & Black Firebird: "RAIF" WEBSITE: www.redraif.com
OTHER CARSí WEBSITES:
1982 Trans AM / 1990 Chevy Dually / 1976 Scout II / 1987 Nissan Pulsar

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