im just really curious to see if this will work. i've got a rebuilt 2.8 v6 (its bored but i'll just stick with 2.8) and i really hate turbochargers. what woulud it take to use a magnuson charger? different lower intake manifold and stuff? lets put the whole fuel pressure and stuff aside, i just wanna know if it will work/fit using stock heads and decklid.

"hate" is such a strong word, lol. What's up with "hating" turbos?

I have owned vortech supercharged mustangs, eaton supercharged cobras, eaton supercharged (mp62) miata's and even turbo eclipses.... Although the supercharger on the miata was great (in regular traffic conditions), i don't think it would hold a candle next to an appropriately sized turbo for mid and top end.

the v8 is also a different story, since it was a quad-cam 4.6L with a great breathing top end, and the eaton gave it that bottom end grunt. the vortech supercharged 98' GT was alright as well, but totally woke up on the top end (sounded kinda cool).

the eclipse (much like all other factory turbo cars) had a terrible delay in the "spool" time. However, with the correct compression ratio and correct turbo, that thing would have been insane... most factory turbo equipped cars are sluggish on the bottom end and very conservative in tune since the manufactorer doesn't want to replace stuff under warranty all the time.

to answer your question:

you would need a custom lower intake manifold. Or fabricate a "adaptor plate" to hold the magnuson (which is eaton) supercharger in place. the critical part is the heat issue and the belt alignment, and getting the correct tension on it. I think you would need AT LEAST the MP62 blower to make it worth while... however the MP112 would be totally cool (over kill for the 2.8). I don't know if it would clear the hood (it should since the 3800sc does), but i don't think it would be much of an issue since the top and mid intake would be gone. I guess a lot of guys on here would ask you "why" since you can just drop in a 3800sc with a ton of aftermarket support behind it for about the same price as trying to piece everything together.... i.e. injectors, ecu, vaccum lines, etc...

someone on here has played with the eaton on a 3.4L DOHC engine, but the engine "valley" is much deeper on the DOHC and would allow for the supercharger to sit lower into it.

Assuming that the supercharger is correctly sized for the engine, I can't see how it wouldn't fit. I'm not familiar with the magnuson chargers, but I'm thinking they're like the M90's, etc. from the GTPs. So you would need a custom lower intake, or some type of adapter. Also you would need a belt drive setup, as far as I know there isn't a drive system available for the 2.8, so that would need to be custom also. With a system of idler pulleys it could be added into the factory serpentine system, or you could possibly get a custom pulley to add a third belt outboard of the alt/wp belt just for the supercharger. A dedicated belt would be the best solution, from a tuning and simplicity standpoint, but there may not be enough room between the frame rail and the original belt.

Oh, and a custom fuel rail system, the stock rail sits exactly centered over the lower intake.

I've contemplated a reverse rotation centrifugal (Eaton/Paxton style) mounted above the A/C compressor and a relocated battery. But discounting the appeal of the challenge, and being different, the cost/benefit equation just isn't there. Even doing all the design, fab work and tuning myself, and finding a used supercharger cheaply, it would cost a pretty good chunk of money, and still struggle to hit 250 hp.

If you want to go fast, an engine swap is the cheapest way to do it.

That having been said, the appeal of being different is certainly strong, and if you can do all the work yourself you might even be able to do it for about the same as an engine swap.

A faegol supercharger will work I got one on my 3.4 but the under hood clearance is not really there
For a TBI or carb you gotta make a hole to get it all fitted

quote Originally posted by wet-buffalo: A faegol supercharger will work I got one on my 3.4 but the under hood clearance is not really there For a TBI or carb you gotta make a hole to get it all fitted

Since he's in California, a carb or tbi is out of the question.

To the OP, that's another thing you'll need to take into account, passing the smog-nazi's testing will be very difficult with a custom setup like that.

Superchargers are expensive,plus the cost of any custom parts equils big $$$$.

quote Originally posted by James Bond 007: Superchargers are expensive,plus the cost of any custom parts equils big $$$$.

Well, any major performance change will be costly, and the cost of custom parts varies inversely with the time you are willing to spend on it. You can spend no time, and pay someone else to do it. Or, you can buy a block of aluminum and hand carve (with pneumatic die grinders, flat files, etc.) your _______________. Before the days of CNC mills and waterjets and even plain bridgeport mills everything was done by hand.

Back on topic, the biggest hurdle to using the stock LIM , I think, would be relocating the fuel injectors. This could be a very interesting project, and if I could get my hands on a cheap supercharger I may just attempt it, just to prove that it can be done. Anyone have a cheap supercharger laying around?

i would have done an engine swap from the beginning but i just didn't have the time. i was doing the swap in my grandparents garage and i had to get my car out of there ASAP. on top of that i was borrowing my aunts wagon (jesus going from a fiero to a wagon for 5 months really sucked when i think back on it) and i had to give THAT back to her ASAP. i was just really stressed for time and if it took 5 months to do a 2.8 rebuild and swap it would have taken even longer if i wanted a 3.8 SC. on top of that there was the money. i spent 3000 on everything for the 2.8 including parts and machining for the block and heads. if i would have gotten a 3800 i would have spent money on getting the motor plus the parts and machining to rebuild it plus the extra time messing around with getting it to work. it would have been awesome but it just wasn't practical. so for right now, being in college, im stuck with my 2.8 for a while until my time and funds increase. i just wanted to do something to give me a little more power from the injected 2.8. i've got a lot of friends with imports and i want to either keep up with them or be faster. right now the v6 just isn't making me happy. so a charger seems kinda out of the questions application and fund wise, so what else can i do to get more power? i've already got the block bored 0.030 over with forged pistons, 440 cam, valve springs and basicly all the performance v6 upgrades from the fierostore besides a chip. the next thing on the list is the CAI in the wheel well, big bore TB and flowmaster muffler/new cat. what should i add to the list?

just a bump to get more info

Well...

I am going to clean my 88GT all day tomorrow... and I just happen to have a spare one of these

.

Do you want pics of anything?

[This message has been edited by Mr.PBody (edited 02-18-2008).]

holy crap you just have a spare one. thats awesome. don't know how much your going to do tomrrow but i gues take a pic of the charger from all sides (especially the bottom). any chance you wanna get rid of it? maybe a better question would be is it in good enough shape to even consider using it?

quote Originally posted by mnstrfiero: oh, along time ago i use to recall there being a vendor that actually offered a roots style supercharger to be installed on these 2.8L v6's... but i think the application was for an S-10 chevy truck with the TBI or carb? someone on here must know what i am talking about?

This may not be the supercharger you're thinking of, but the following link to a Canadian site offering a supercharger kit for the 2.8L V6 Fiero may be of interest to those following this thread: http://www.jimmysautomotiveandcustom.com . Click on their "Accessories" tab, and then scroll down to the bottom of the page that next comes up.

However, I don't think this kit uses the Magnuson supercharger that the originator of this thread, iamtylerdurden, mentioned at its outset.

Incidentally, I think this supercharger kit for the V6 Fiero requires you to lose your Fiero's air conditioner, unless you can figure out how to successfully relocate its compressor somewhere else.

This was done several years ago by a guy in Norway..

Major performance change with a turbo is actually dirt cheap if you have the tools and skills.

I can add a T3 .60super turbo to a 2.8 for less than $350.00 including the turbo from the junk yard and it's rebuild kit. but then I have free access to a tig welder, pipe bender, Chip programming equipment, etc...


Superchargers are always way more expensive than Turbo because they are far harder to add to an existing setup that does not have mass produced adapter kits for them. Hope that Truelo designs get's the Supercharge bug and starts designing a lower intake to mount one on a Fiero 2.8 or Chevy 3.4.. That would be a cool item that probably would sell.

BTW: for anyone that doesn know about them... http://www.fageolsuperchargers.com/ where to go. I just hate that you haveto put the TBI or carb on top. I'd rather see a TBI setup with TB attached on the side like most TBI supercharged systems.

[This message has been edited by timgray (edited 02-17-2008).]

quote Originally posted by iamtylerdurden: i've already got the block bored 0.030 over with forged pistons, 440 cam, valve springs and basicly all the performance v6 upgrades from the fierostore besides a chip.

I've two questions:

1. Who is the manufacturer and what are the specifications for the "440 cam" you've mentioned?
   
2. Not everyone is familiar with "all the performance V6 upgrades" from the Fiero Store. Do yours include their Sprint headers?

its the comp cam from the fiero store. 440 lift, 260 duration at intake and exhaust but if i can remember right its got like a 210 lif at .050 and a 110 lobe seperation. ok so i dont have ALL the upgrades but most of them. i still have a few things to get. 1.6 rockers, sprint manifolds, y pipe and flowmaster muffler. im not gonna deal with the new valves and i already have the roller timing chain and blaster coil with a rebuilt distributor and new control module. also got the whole fuel system replaced besides the injectors. if you are gonna bore the block, and i have no idea why i didn't do this in the first place, but dont go .030 over go .040 over. they offer the forged pistons to do it and i can't imagine the price would be very different or that much more.

I looked into turbos too after i found that there wasnt any superchargers except one member whos name i cant remember had one but it seemed like turbocharging was more complicated than i thought and than it should be. Besdies making custom manifolds to add the tubo a knock sensor and a 2 bar computer have to be added. I could be wrong and missing information but if someone could explain it that would help.

If you have a welder then the custom exhaust manifold you need is really easy. Either use pre-bent mandrel pieces like Joseph Upson has done on several of his turbo builds or go with my cheap solution of weld els. My setup cost less than $100 with everything including the turbo mounting flange. The T3 turbo off a 1983 Ford T-Bird was $75 from a junk yard. The rebuild kit is about $90.

There is no absolute need for a knock sensor but it is a good idea. Several have added the '85 ECM with the knock sensor module and a custom chip. The 2 bar MAP sensor is purchased directly from any auto parts store and either buy a pigtail or simply cut your stock Fiero connector to fit. I cut mine and it fits perfectly. Bigger injectors were about $75 off ebay.

Just depends on how much work you want to do and how much money you have. I like both turbos and superchargers.

Heres the MAJOR issue you are going to run into, the distributor. You need to convert to DIS. I forgot to take the blower with me the hour drive to where I store my car. Tonight I can break out a ruler a get some measurements for you. I don't think I can sell this one as of now, I am not sure how good of shape the housing is in, and I am going to port and polish it. You can find them on ebay all day long for like ~$300. IMO your best bet is to go with the eaton style blower that someone posted a link to a few posts up. No custom fabbing and you don't loose your distributer. Also my blower is an Eaton M90, not a magnuson I dunno what blower you are talking about, the dimensions may be better.

Edit by the way, according the Intense Racing (builders of the current worlds fastest 3800s) say the carbon on the rotors is a good thing and to not clean it all off, it actually helps seal. I saw you ask if its in good shape, the rotors are fine, I just need to put all new sensors in this one (it was in a minor fire )

[This message has been edited by Mr.PBody (edited 02-17-2008).]

i just said magnuson cuz thats the name i'm familar with. i was just talking about that style. but i think i'm convinced to go turbo instead of a supercharger. its just more practical. i don't have much cash and i've already put a little over 3000 into the motor. so does that mean i should get the sprint manifolds but hold off on the y-pipe? the only stupid thing is i can weld ( or have before) but i dont have a welder so i'm gonna need someone to do it for me. hey, maybe i can wait till summer and do it in welding class! so correct me if i'm wrong but if i'm gonna do this im gonna need a turbo, BOV, manifolds, y-pipe, ECM, Knock sensor, map sensor, injectors, adjustable fuel regulator and....anything else?

ECM and knock sensor aren't necessary but not a bad idea. Yes you can get the Sprint manifolds, but since you have to cut up a Y-pipe anyways don't hack up a high dollar one, you can cut out the restriction while its apart anyways. You may need a wastegate if your turbo doesn't have an internal one.

The first thing is to decide where to place the turbo. That will decide what parts are necessary and which are nice to have. For simplicity, the lowest point on the turbo center section needs to be above the oil pan so your return oil can drain back to the pan. Also, if you have a manual versus an auto trans you will be further restricted on where the turbo will fit. Do you plan on keeping the stock air cleaner in the stock location? Another restriction to consider.

Check out this thread for some ideas: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/085221.html

What Hudini said.

It's really easy, put the turbo where you like it, measure cut pipes and start welding. be sure to add some flex joints and turbo mounting. Upgrade your injectors, Then chips, I reccomend ripping the stock ecm out and replacing it with the better one listed in the ECM upgrade swap thread. more tuneability. get a burner, romulator, software, learn how to tune, you're good to go.

getting the turbo, intercooler (if you want one, I suggest YES), piping ,mullfer,etc.. is the super easy part. Programming the chip is not. The prices that Darth charges for his chips are incredibly cheap. he can get you close if you give him enough information will be way faster than you can learn where to start tuning the ECM (cutting months off of the project)


For me it's cheap, I have tools, access to tools, experience, a lift, etc... so for a well equipped guy it's dirt cheap. For someone that is not, a Design 1 turbo is the cheapest way. Same as how a guy with the tools I have can do a 3800sc swap for $2500.00. It's the tools that are all the magic.

well i already took out all the stock air components for the wheel well intake. what size turbo should i get and at what psi if im running original reconditioned crank, forged pistons, stock heads and valves. and lets say i keep the stock manifolds.

quote Originally posted by iamtylerdurden: what size turbo should i get and at what psi if im running original reconditioned crank, forged pistons, stock heads and valves. and lets say i keep the stock manifolds.

What is the current compression ratio of your engine with your forged pistons? I ask because all other things being equal, a streetable (i.e., doesn't-blow-up-the-engine) level of boost is related in part to how much compression the engine will have.

right now its a little over 9.5. the fiero store advertises the probe pistons bump the compression to 9.5 and i also had some head work done that put it up a little. so....i'd say....around 9.7??? maybe????

what size turbo/what car should i get it from?

I've no turbo recommendation for you, but if you're planning on running a turbo with the 9.7:1 compression ratio you believe your 2.8L has, you may need to use either minimal boost, racing fuel, or an intercooler. If on the other hand someone feels that tuning alone would allow your turbo to work quite well with that much compression, I think yours could make for a very interesting build thread.

STS turbo, http://www.ststurbo.com/ our cars are begging for this. We don't have the same issue with the lenght of the piping, we can just go from the muffler area to the intake. This is what I would do if I was going turbo.

Rob

so what does the intercooler have to do with compression? and as far as the STS turbo what kit would work?

quote Originally posted by iamtylerdurden: so what does the intercooler have to do with compression?

Because it reduces the temperature of the intake air charge, an intercooler typically alows one to run higher compression than otherwise would be the case without an intercooler.

I've not used the STS turbo that qwikgta mentioned two posts above, but it also presumably would be beneficial in a similar vein if the STS claim on their website of "lowest intake air temps in the industry" is a true and meaningful one.

i don't know if that would apply to "us" as much. i saw them put in a twin turbo kit into a vette on horsepower TV (just like on the web page) with the intake behind the lights. thats probably where they're getting that slogan from. i'm just not seriously looking into turbos right now so i'd feel bad asking a bunch of questions and getting quotes. maybe i'll do it for other peoples benefit.

quote Originally posted by iamtylerdurden: i saw them put in a twin turbo kit into a vette on horsepower TV (just like on the web page) with the intake behind the lights. thats probably where they're getting that slogan from.

Actually, if you take another look at the "STS Turbo" website ( http://www.ststurbo.com ), it appears that their claim to fame of "lowest intake air temps in the industry" is due not so much to where their air intake itself is located, but to where their turbo is located --- typically under the chassis --- rather than inside a hot engine compartment.

I've not used the STS turbo that qwikgta mentioned four posts above, but it sounds like an interesting idea.

actually now that you say that-that makes more sense. the whole intake thing wouldn't make nearly as much of a difference as having the turbo a lot cooler. would it be possibly to put the turbo in a fiero under the car, like before the cat, rather than up top?

Ambient temperature around a turbo has basically no effect on charge air temperature. The actual compression of the air is what causes the temp to climb. STS is making their claim about "lowest air temperatures" based on heat loss through the immense length of the charge air pipes.

I'm not a fan of the STS hype, I don't believe it can possibly be as drivable as they claim. Here's my reasoning, as I've posted before:

quote I've said previously: I've read several reviews of these systems, and I don't believe that they have as little lag as the reviewers say. The physics of it don't add up. A turbo mounted in the engine compartment has maybe 18 inches of exhaust before the turbo, and, assuming no intercooler, maybe another 18 inches on the intake. A turbo mounted in the trunk (basically) will have about 8 feet of exhaust and another 8-10 feet of intake plumbing. That alone says the turbo has to pressurize vastly more volume before the engine sees any boost. I mean you're looking at almost six times the volume. When a turbo begins to spool up, it does so because of pressure in the exhaust system, so the engine has to pressurize the entire exhaust, then the turbo will spool. Once the turbo has spooled, it has to pressurize all the intake plumbing before the engine will see any boost. I'd never consider one for a street driven car, but on a drag only car, where there is no throttle transition during operation (you're on boost while staging if you're powerbraking) the extra plumbing would not be an issue. On a street car, with a turbo properly sized for the engine, it would NOT be ideal. All of the issues they list on their website (melting wires, etc.) are addressed with a PROPERLY designed and installed turbo kit.

Most of these issues are nonexistent on a Fiero due to the proximity of the entire exhaust system to the engine compartment.

In a Fiero a turbo can be installed anywhere you can plumb the exhaust to, the only downside to putting the turbo low in the engine compartment is that you'll have to use a scavenge pump to return the oil to the oil pan. wftb is working on a turbo ecotec over here and has had to do just that. If you have an automatic there should be plenty of room above the tranny to mount the turbo, but the stick cars are a bit more crowded there.

it seems like replacing the stock air box with the turbo is a good place. there's the hole out to the scoop, it sits high and there is the air coming in from the vents on top? as far as buying a kit what is a reasonable price?

quote Originally posted by FieroJimmy: Ambient temperature around a turbo has basically no effect on charge air temperature. The actual compression of the air is what causes the temp to climb. STS is making their claim about "lowest air temperatures" based on heat loss through the immense length of the charge air pipes.

yes that is the major reason. long length of radiant cooling, not as good as an inter cooler, but not bad, and alot cheaper.

quote Originally posted by FieroJimmy: I'm not a fan of the STS hype, I don't believe it can possibly be as drivable as they claim. Here's my reasoning, as I've posted before: Most of these issues are nonexistent on a Fiero due to the proximity of the entire exhaust system to the engine compartment. In a Fiero a turbo can be installed anywhere you can plumb the exhaust to, the only downside to putting the turbo low in the engine compartment is that you'll have to use a scavenge pump to return the oil to the oil pan. wftb is working on a turbo ecotec over here and has had to do just that. If you have an automatic there should be plenty of room above the tranny to mount the turbo, but the stick cars are a bit more crowded there.

you reasoning has as many flaws as sts's claims. whether a tube is 18" or 18' 5 psi is 5 psi. the issue is volume flow, and lag. air is compressable, so you could have a delay in seeing the pressure increase from the length of the pipe from the turbo. likewise a delay in the exhaust pressure build up to kick up the turbo. With considerations of that, properly sizing the unit will minimize the latter, and reduce the effects o fthe boost lag. drivability will only be minimally effected. the impact would actually be worse in a track environment, as the unit would would be over boosted/driven with the staging powerbrake. you would need to use a different turbo setup in that case.
the potential locations in a fiero for a turbo install more feasable with a little planning, as the sts system is not really ideal for the car, especially given the cost.

For Tyler, you won;t be able to run more than 2-5psi with those comp ratios without risking damage. with current pump gas, you are looking at using the highest octane and an intercooler or an alcohol/water system. depending on how far you had the head taken down, you may well already be in the 10:1 range, and without a forged crank and stronger rods, you will have to be very careful with your boost. you will most definately need a knock sensor, the 2 bar map was a given. the ecm upgrade and change to a DIS system would be a good plan too, as spark control is much better with DIS, and you will need to be very careful with detonation/preiginition issues,as you can still blow a hole thru a forged piston without boost at higher compression. just consider also that the turbo wlll get the air in, overriding the restrictions in the stock intake, so with proper headwork, you should see a nice performance increase with minimal boost, likely to the limits of the bottom end of the engine, which is also a major issue with the stock 2.8.

Get a T3 turbo from a Thunderbird and a rebuild kit. do NOT go past 10 PSI boost, in fact do NOT use a boost controller leave it at the stock 6PSI. Dont even think about turning it up high as your 2.8 will not handle it.

Get a intercooler and drop the temperature enough so that premium gas will run well in the car. Remember, you will never ever be able to run cheap gas again in your car, unless you hate your engine. You can cheat and use a water/alcohol spray and skip the intercooler.

The T3 from the thunderbird is sized for a 2.5 it's close enough for your application and the stock intake will kill you way before you run out of steam on that turbo. It's also dirt cheap compared to buying a new good one for $500.00. New good turbos are expensive. You CAN buy china knockoffs on ebay for less but they tend to explode.