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Starter problems by Cancelli60
Started on: 01-26-2008 03:25 PM
Replies: 11
Last post by: Cancelli60 on 01-30-2008 03:04 PM
Cancelli60
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Report this Post01-26-2008 03:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Cancelli60Send a Private Message to Cancelli60Direct Link to This Post
Just working though the winter fix list on my, new to me, 85 Fiero 2.8V6 and got to the Starter.
Symptoms are continual spinning out as soon as the engine fires, just like the old Bendix starters used to do, doesnít always do it but when it does itíll do it 5 or 6 times and itís getting worse!
Previous owner didnít have this problem but had a new clutch fitted before selling the car to me, and the prob. didnít show up Ďtill a few weeks after I bought the car.

Iíve so far only found Saxmanís reference to needing to align the starter on his V8 fixer-upper back in Ď06

I donít mind rebuilding the starter but a few tips would be helpful, like the easiest way to get at it!! Iím in the UK and a new starter would cost a small fortune here!
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James Bond 007
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Report this Post01-26-2008 08:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for James Bond 007Send a Private Message to James Bond 007Direct Link to This Post
Someone correct me if Im wrong,but Im thinking,starter sylinoid.You can probubley get the sylinoid from the mall secting of this web sight,but wait for other opionyons first.
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Xanth
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Report this Post01-26-2008 08:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for XanthClick Here to visit Xanth's HomePageSend a Private Message to XanthDirect Link to This Post
I *believe* there is a spring in the solenoid that is supposed to help disengage the starter. When that went out in my Dad's Indy his starter would not immediately disengage.

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James Bond 007
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Report this Post01-27-2008 10:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for James Bond 007Send a Private Message to James Bond 007Direct Link to This Post
I think your right Xanth (thats what I was thinking),I'de give you my A+++ rateing but you allready have it (rateing bar didn't budge).
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Cancelli60
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Report this Post01-27-2008 03:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Cancelli60Send a Private Message to Cancelli60Direct Link to This Post
Iíll check out the solenoid at the week end, though my prob. seems to be keeping the starter engaged long enough to get the engine started.

When I turn the key the starter engages and turns the engine over but as soon as the engine fires it kicks the starter out, the starter then keeps running as long as you keep the key turned even though the engine is then stationary.

Normally with a pre-engage starter you can keep the key turned when the engine fires but is a bit reluctant to keep going, like when itís hot, but then let go when the engine can keep going.

Sorry if thatís not very clear but itís difficult to describe
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Xanth
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Report this Post01-27-2008 06:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for XanthClick Here to visit Xanth's HomePageSend a Private Message to XanthDirect Link to This Post
From what I remember when my dad had his apart, turning the Key activates the solenoid, which levers the starter gear out to engage the flywheel, and simultaneously engages power to the starter motor. So if the starter is running, then in theory the solenoid is engaged.

But I don't know how the starter could run, yet not be engaged. Any chance you're missing teeth on the flywheel?

Edit: Perhaps possible the lever from the solenoid that pushes out the solenoid is broken? Could catch just enough to push out the starter when there is no load, but the engine firing forces the starter back in.

[This message has been edited by Xanth (edited 01-27-2008).]

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Cancelli60
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Report this Post01-27-2008 07:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Cancelli60Send a Private Message to Cancelli60Direct Link to This Post
Hey, youíve got me really hoping the starter motorís bad, I donít like the thought of missing teeth on the flywheel one bit, it had a new clutch bolted to it in November last year, so the clutch guy couldíve done something that needs the engine to come out!

Only one way to find out, Iíll have to get the starter out and rotate the engine to check the teeth.

Thanks guys, Iíll try to have a look next weekend and post what I find wrong.
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Dodgerunner
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Report this Post01-27-2008 09:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DodgerunnerClick Here to visit Dodgerunner's HomePageClick Here to Email DodgerunnerSend a Private Message to DodgerunnerDirect Link to This Post
I've been watching you post and read it a little better tonight.
Xanth is correct in that the solinoid engages the bendix and also connects the power to the starter motor.
If your stater engages the motor and turns it but then drops out the bendix but continues to run the most logical thing has to be a bad solinoid somehow. Can't figure out how it could keep the motor running with the solinoid armature dropped out but must be somehow...

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Cancelli60
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Report this Post01-28-2008 10:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Cancelli60Send a Private Message to Cancelli60Direct Link to This Post
Iíve had a quick look under the car and the starter is not loose and all the connections look ok, I rang the clutch guy and he said you donít need to take the starter off to do the clutch and it all looked ok when he did it.

I hope itís the lever that Xanth mentioned and not the teeth. Iíll have to get the car over the pit and have a go at removing the starter which doesnít look at all easy to get at! My car is a Mera clone with a non standard exhaust to make it sound more like a Ferrari so that may need to come off.

Anyone know why Iím now a Junior Member, I was a New Member the last time I posted????
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StockGT
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Report this Post01-28-2008 01:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for StockGTClick Here to Email StockGTSend a Private Message to StockGTDirect Link to This Post
One other item that you could check is the Starter motor to flywheel clearance.
If the distance is too small, the starter can remain engaged after the motor fires. The correct clearance is 1/8 of an inch between the starter pinion shaft and a flywheel tooth. The clearance is adjusted with shims between the starter bolts and engine block.

There's a good write up under Ogres Cave site, under Electrical section -> Starter Shim
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Cancelli60
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Report this Post01-28-2008 06:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Cancelli60Send a Private Message to Cancelli60Direct Link to This Post
Just had a look at "Starter Shim" in the Cave plus the link there on GM starters, thanks StockGT, it could be thereís too much clearance and itís wrecking the teeth on the pinion, Maybe the clutch guy did miss-aligned something without realizing it.
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Cancelli60
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Report this Post01-30-2008 03:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Cancelli60Send a Private Message to Cancelli60Direct Link to This Post
Panic over!! It was the one way ďSpragĒ clutch situated behind the starter pinion, it works as a free wheel device so that the engine canít drive the starter motor if you keep the key turned or when you try to start the engine when it is already running.

My Son and I got the car over the pit and managed to get the Starter out OK and found the ring gear to be perfect, what a relief!!!!!

I then had a look at the starter and soon found the problem; the starter pinion could free wheel in both directions only occasionally locking in the drive direction.

Iím kicking myself now, I should have thought of the clutch slipping, thatís why the starter could run without turning the engine over, I donít think this a common prob. though.

The clutch had a sort of greasy brown dust in it which must act like a lubricant causing the clutch to slip so I soaked the pinion assy. in paint thinner several times and blew as much of the crud out of the clutch as I could, a bit like cleaning a ball race, and it started working again.

The clutch is a sealed unit forming part of the pinion assy. and the whole thing will eventually need to be replaced, if I can get hold of one, the rest of the starter is still in good nick.

As my son had planned to use the car at the weekend I cleaned, lubricated and reassembled the starter (leaving the clutch dry), refitted it back in the car and it worked perfectly.

You live and learn!!
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