Hi everyone,
I bid on some Indy floor mats at egay (I know); the seller said they were a "solid 9 out 10" & had "minute wear".
Less than 24 hours before the auction closed, he posted this photo of the back of the driver's mat. I didn't see the photo untill after the auction ended.
Personally I think it's more like a 6 or 7 at best - DEFINATELY not a "SOLID 9"!

The auction is http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBay...=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=007 if you want to verify my statement(s).
I emailed him & said that I thought he mis-represented the item, & requested that we consider the auction "null & void" (with "no hard feelings & no feedback") - there were no other bidders. He refused & expects me to pay for them. Said egay was going to charge him for the auction. I asked how much (I want to be fair) but he never said & still expects me to pay for them. I know now even if I buy them he'll leave me negative feedback.
Do you think this mat is "a SOILD 9 out 10"?
Thanks,
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

I'm with the bomb squad: if you see me running, try to keep up!

[This message has been edited by Tha Driver (edited 04-15-2008).]

Based on the condition of the front side of the drivers side mat alone I don't think thay should be called a nine. The peeling/cracked rubber on the back side drops the rating from a 5-6 to a 4-5 out of 10 imho. For $75.00 he should've posted more than one picture of it to begin with.
Marc

ps Cliff will probably move this to GFC

File a complaint with e-bay and let them help you sort it out. If you can show proof of everything you shouldnt have a problem at all.

Also just to let you know after I posted this initially. On his feedback check on page 2 for the only negative. He did the same thing to someone else and the buyer forced the return on him. The only downfall is you will prob get a neg from him but if you seek ebay help you might be able to mutually get that taken away.


Tommy "Gunz"

[This message has been edited by CorvetteFan86 (edited 11-12-2007).]

I want Indy mats and was considering offering to buy them off you to make up for your loss but $75 for a matt that looks like that on the back, sorry. If he leaves you negative feedback take it up with ebay.

The very idea of you seeking an opinion about it is proof positive enough that no matter what the opinions are here, it is not a 9 or 10 by your expectation. He knew what the bottom of that mat looked like from the start and posting that bottom shot late in the auction is suspect at a minimum and even worse if it was after a bid. It is easy to mis additions and edits to an item description after you have already viewed its initial listing a couple of times and are concentrating on winning the auction.

I would take the negative and add a rebuttle that I'm sure not many if any would hold against you and take it up with Ebay. You are not getting what you expected, therefore he shouldn't get what he expects.

ok the back i dont think is THAT big of a deal. but the top on the driver side doesn't look like a "9". maybe if he cleaned em and made sure there wasn't too much wear it would be better. not worth 75 at all. for sure i would file a complaint.

Thats Toddster that sold them. You may want to post a link in his thread to this one. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/039760.html

Thanks for that whereat I posted a link back to this thread.
Joseph, right - like I said I think more like a 6 or 7 at best. I wanted other's opinions to make sure I wasn't way off base. Thanks everyone for posting.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Curiosity killed the cat but for a while I was the suspect.

quote Originally posted by Gokart: Based on the condition of the front side of the drivers side mat alone I don't think thay should be called a nine.

This is my opinion as well. However, your judgement seems to differ than ours based on this alone.

To me, the backside would not be an issue. If I liked the way they looked while in the car, thats all that would matter. Again, our opinions vary.

Do I think he intentionally did this? Yes. Did he have sufficient time to add or change the auction before closing, according to ebay policy? Yes.

The heel wear on the front is not to bad but there is still the pukering from the backing being broke. I've picked mats up at U-pull-it with just a little more wear for $5 each.
I'd give them a 7, but no way a 9. The numbers are all subjective anyway. Everyone thinks differently.

I work some black silicone into the back, cover it with wax paper or plastic wrap and press it until it's set. They stay fairly flat then.

Guess since they are Indy mats that would increase the value some.

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 11-12-2007).]

Clearly this guy is a pinhead.

He posted the picture I placed in the auction!

I mean HELLO!

There it is! Judge for yourself if you want to bid or not. He BID! Now he is changing his mind and somehow I am the bad guy? Oh, BTW, I am the "bad guy" who has to pay the eBay auction fees that this clown stuck me with because he was too lazy to just cancel his bid.

I answered ALL emails and described the flaws in the Description AND added detailed pictures PER HIS REQUEST within 24 hours of his request (the jerk didn't mention that little fact in his original post now did he?). He could have just said, "WHOA, not what I was expecting" and cancelled his bid. I mean he DID see the picture before the end of the auction. He ASKED FOR THEM! So why didn't he cancel his bid? Simple, he doesn't have the money and is just jerking me off.

Exactly what more does a guy have to do? I'm just a guy trying to sell some VERY hard to find top condition Indy mats (you won't find many better than these I guarnatee it)! A 9 for a normal set of mats versus Indy mats is a totally different scale. Good luck to him finding a better set. He wont for less than $200.

Rate this bastard accordingly. He owes me $75

[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 11-12-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Clearly this guy is a pinhead. He posted the picture I placed in the auction! I mean HELLO! There it is! Judge for yourself if you want to bid or not. He BID! Now he is changing his mind and somehow I am the bad guy? Oh, BTW, I am the "bad guy" who has to pay the eBay auction fees that this clown stuck me with because he was too lazy to just cancel his bid. I answered ALL emails and described the flaws in the Description AND added detailed pictures PER HIS REQUEST within 24 hours of his request (the jerk didn't mention that little fact in his original post now did he?). He could have just said, "WHOA, not what I was expecting" and cancelled his bid. I mean he DID see the picture before the end of the auction. He ASKED FOR THEM! So why didn't he cancel his bid? Simple, he doesn't have the money and is just jerking me off. Exactly what more does a guy have to do? I'm just a guy trying to sell some VERY hard to find top condition Indy mats (you won't find many better than these I guarnatee it)! A 9 for a normal set of mats versus Indy mats is a totally different scale. Good luck to him finding a better set. He wont for less than $200. Rate this bastard accordingly. He owes me $75

At a minimum I believe you are due a reconsideration by all of us in that there are to many variables to decide who's at fault, so first I retract my opinion and second I should have noted that this isn't the place for it before I opened my big mouth. You guys work it out.

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: At a minimum I believe you are due a reconsideration by all of us in that there are to many variables to decide who's at fault, so first I retract my opinion and second I should have noted that this isn't the place for it before I opened my big mouth. You guys work it out.

Thanks for taking a fresh look at this situation. I agree. I tried to work it out with him. His solution was this thread. Now I am stuck defending my integrity.

I have near perfect eBay feedback with only two negatives, one from a banned scammer and the other from a guy who eBay forced to pay me damages! I've sold dozens of parts in the mall too, all with good responses.

I find it ironic that he asked for an "UNbiased" opinion on a biased original post.

I don't care that his idea of 9 is different from mine. All that matters is that he bid, he won, he owns them and needs to pay. He can sell them to someone else if he thinks he can do better (lotsa luck). But if he doesn't do the honorable thing instead of asking ME to pay for his mistake then what exactly am I supposed to do?

There is no question who eBay will side with. But I just don't need this grief over $75.

Nevermind......

[This message has been edited by AutoTech (edited 11-13-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Clearly this guy is a pinhead. He posted the picture I placed in the auction! I mean HELLO! There it is! Judge for yourself if you want to bid or not. He BID! Now he is changing his mind and somehow I am the bad guy? Oh, BTW, I am the "bad guy" who has to pay the eBay auction fees that this clown stuck me with because he was too lazy to just cancel his bid. I answered ALL emails and described the flaws in the Description AND added detailed pictures PER HIS REQUEST within 24 hours of his request (the jerk didn't mention that little fact in his original post now did he?). He could have just said, "WHOA, not what I was expecting" and cancelled his bid. I mean he DID see the picture before the end of the auction. He ASKED FOR THEM! So why didn't he cancel his bid? Simple, he doesn't have the money and is just jerking me off. Exactly what more does a guy have to do? I'm just a guy trying to sell some VERY hard to find top condition Indy mats (you won't find many better than these I guarnatee it)! A 9 for a normal set of mats versus Indy mats is a totally different scale. Good luck to him finding a better set. He wont for less than $200. Rate this bastard accordingly. He owes me $75

Yeah I posted the picture from the auction; I wanted opinions based on the same thing I saw. DUH.
The pic was NOT there when I bid, & I DID NOT SEE IT before the auction ended.
This is the *complete* description from the auction:
"A solid 9 out of 10. The driver side has some minute wear but on the whole these are better than most I have ever seen. Came out of a low mile Indy."
Do you see where he "described the flaws in the Description"???
One thing he seems to have missed: I DID NOT request that he post more pics - SOMEONE ELSE DID! Someone who saw it & didn't bid, I might add. I had NO CHANCE to retract my bid. He never emaild me (nor I him) about the condition of the mats or more pics. He is terribly confused.
A scale of 10 is the same for anything, toddster. Dosen't matter if it's mats out of any car or your girlfriend. A 9 is a 9 & this mat is NOT a 9 - much less a SOILD 9! You can see that for yourself by the answers here.
I *did* ask how much the auction fees were to try & be fair about this.
FUNNY thing is, if he had not posted that pic I would have sent the money right away. Would have left him negative feedback after I got them, though, for item "not as described".
He has now also left me a "negative feedback" here at PFFs for asking for OPINIONS OF THE RATING ON THE MAT. He has not even got his facts right & already passing judgement on my character & trying to influence others toward the same conclusion. I never said anything about him.
He "tried to work it out with me"???? This is his last email to me:
"There is no need to post them on PFF (I had suggested he post the pic to see what others thought of his "solid 9 out of 10".) when people can just look up the
auction. Do your worst. My PFF handle is Toddster.
I will expect payment within the 10 day period."
I wouldn't call that "trying to work it out". I could post more (other/previous emails) but I won't right now. I'm not even *close* to "doing my worst" - & I'm not planning to either.
I DID NOT start this thread to start an arguement about who is right or wrong. I simply wanted unbiased opinions about the condition of the mat (& I stated my reason for wanting said opinion).
Sorry for all the drama, folks.
I suppose I could use a few + ratings for all the help I've given in previous threads, now....
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

I hear voices... and they don't like you.

The mats: definitely not a 9. Whether you go through with the purchase: up to you, but considering the "working it out" part i'd say that's also not a 9. I picked up a frame earlier this year and enquired about a broken windshield which was not pointed out in the ebay add or in any pictures. The guy went totally ape on me; i guess people are just like that ...

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: ...Said egay was going to charge him for the auction. I asked how much (I want to be fair) but he never said & still expects me to pay for them...

How much for what?
Were you going to cover the commission, and let him relist them?
I think that's fair.

I certainly don't think they're a "solid 9".

Definitely not a "solid" 9

quote Originally posted by RideZiLightning: Definitely not a "solid" 9

YOU GUYS ARE MISSING THE POINT!

It does not matter whether you agree they are a 9 or not. It only matters that he bid on them anyway!

HE could have withdrawn his bid after he saw the pictures. He didn't!

He claims he didn't see the pictures. BULLSHIT. He ASKED FOR THEM! I HAPPILY AND QUICKLY provided them. NO DECEPTION, NO ATTEMPT TO HIDE THE TRUTH. PLAIN AS DAY.

AND He didn't offer to pay my fees. I'll post the damned email if you like.

For Christ's sake guys...IT'S ME!

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: Yeah I posted the picture from the auction; I wanted opinions based on the same thing I saw. DUH. The pic was NOT there when I bid, & I DID NOT SEE IT before the auction ended.

BULLSHIT!. You ASKED for the pics and I posted them. You really think that anyone here is going to believe that you wouldn't look at the pics when you specifically asked me to post them?

No one here is that gullable kid.

quote I hear voices...

No surprise there.

the important part - the top - does in fact look great.
but - I can tell from the front pic that the backside has problems. when them little "bubbles" appear - that is where the front & back have seperated, or the back worn thru.

solid 9 out of 10? probably. but, I am basing this on how much better do you think is possible to find? I'm sure if I grabbed 20 random indy floormats - none of them would be as good as these. by that stat - absolutely 9 out of 10. if by raw pure unmitigated - yes - 7 out of 10.

my guess - them floormats got 35-40k miles on them

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: my guess - them floormats got 35-40k miles on them

13k to be exact. The tops ARE nearly perfect. It is hard to see in the pics because the sun is behind and the heel area is in shadow. But to see the real thing you would swear they were new looking on the tops. The bottom is worn a bit but only because the rubber dries out after years and cracks easily when you start using them again.

These are VERY nice mats. I've owned 5 Indys and these are some of the best used mats I've had. Well worth the price.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: 13k to be exact. The tops ARE nearly perfect. It is hard to see in the pics because the sun is behind and the heel area is in shadow. But to see the real thing you would swear they were new looking on the tops. The bottom is worn a bit but only because the rubber dries out after years and cracks easily when you start using them again. These are VERY nice mats. I've owned 5 Indys and these are some of the best used mats I've had. Well worth the price.

ah, must be a manual trans then. but, yes - the shadow may be making the heel area look more worn than it is.

personally i think you guys need to spilt the ebay fee and be done with this.. clearly you guys are at an impass and that seems to be the only reasonable thing to do.. each of you did what you felt was right and now you are left wanting from the other because you both feel cheated... i dont know how much ebay fees are but assume they are alot lees than the price of the item.. so i say you guys split it down the middle and both walk away learning a lesson about buying and seeling (i am not saying either one of you guys are at fault) but there is something to be learned from everything and from this lovely parfait of fun you guys each learn to be more cautious of what your buying or who your selling to... case closed
my $0.02
Ryan

quote Originally posted by CheshireGrin: personally i think you guys need to spilt the ebay fee and be done with this.. clearly you guys are at an impass and that seems to be the only reasonable thing to do.. each of you did what you felt was right and now you are left wanting from the other because you both feel cheated... i dont know how much ebay fees are but assume they are alot lees than the price of the item.. so i say you guys split it down the middle and both walk away learning a lesson about buying and seeling (i am not saying either one of you guys are at fault) but there is something to be learned from everything and from this lovely parfait of fun you guys each learn to be more cautious of what your buying or who your selling to... case closed my $0.02 Ryan

How could HE feel cheated? He hasn't paid for anything. I am the one who is out $10 in ebay fees (listing fee, end of auction fee, and a relist fee).

All I want now is for the ass to shut up and go away.

I mean seriously, WHAT IS THE POINT OF THIS THREAD? He isn't out anything! I'm the victim of a lazy schmuck who not only wouldn't remove his bid when I gave him the pictures he asked for but now has to start trying to bad mouth me because HIS definition of a "9" for a set of mats he HAS NEVER SEEN IN PERSON is different from mine.

[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 11-13-2007).]

post up the email where he asked for pics. If it is him then i say he had a chance to see them, if not then let him split the ebay fees and relist them it sounds like a fair deal

quote Originally posted by chrisgtp: post up the email where he asked for pics. If it is him then i say he had a chance to see them, if not then let him split the ebay fees and relist them it sounds like a fair deal

how's about he just buys them??
is the price bad? who thinks he will find better mats for a lessor price?

yes, I dont like the pic is posted the day before the auction ends - but they were posted before the end - and at the bidders request. all avenues to satisfy were used.

NOT SIDING !

True these ARE rare. ( no more reproduced) So the scale could very well be 1-20 with 9 on the lower scale of a rare item.
To me $75 for even heavily used Rare Indy mats is a great price. Where can you get new out of the box indy mats at?

If you bid on ebay, you MUST keep a watch on the bidding. good or bad. If you can not keep a watch of it till the end.....please don't bid!
And if he did ask for "more pics" that stuff should be done BEFORE a bid is made ( to be safe)

Unfortunely, The Driver should pay the $75 good or bad. If he does not like them when they get to the house, it is his right to re-sale them and "try" to get the $$ back or even most of it back.

Todd, I did notice that some of your shipping seemed kinda high (to me) on the few things I was looking at, that is why I did not bid on anything you had.That is my choice and the way it is and should be.

Bottom line even if both of you are pissed at each other, you should give a netural feedback to each other. ( we are all brothers on the Fiero Fourm) some brothers are meaner than others but......

Why hurt rateings when maybe BOTH of you could have done something different to help this sale in the first place.

eBay - always buyer beware...

I for one always ask for more pictures (especially on items that could be 'high wear') and I don't bid till I see them. When I am thinking of buying an item, I frequent the page often to see any changes to the description.

As for this particular auction, the front side looks fine in the pictures (I would have asked for some hi-res ones around the heel area) - you never see the backside anyways (you could probably get a new back attached - sure more cost, but it's a matter how much you want original Indy mats). I am not going to comment on the 9 part as everyone thinks 9 is different - I have seen auctions where people claimed the item to be perfect, but after getting hi-res pictures, they had scratches on it.

question tho...does eBay not let you relist an unsold item anymore for free (1 time)?
anyways, just my 2¢

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 11-13-2007).]

quote Originally posted by chrisgtp: Post up the email where he asked for pics. If it is him then i say he had a chance to see them, if not then let him split the eBay fees and relist them it sounds like a fair deal

Ditto. Man up and post the email.

I vote 5.5 out of 10, because they don't look too faded and you can patch the rubber bottom...kinda. Not worth 75 though, even for a Fiero.

------------------
1986 SE V6, stock, auto, fastback. GT Trim and Body panels.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: How much for what? Were you going to cover the commission, and let him relist them? I think that's fair. I certainly don't think they're a "solid 9".

Yes I was going to cover the cost of the auction so he wouldn't be out any cash, even though I feel it was him who mis-reprsented the item. Only way I'd do that now is if he first left me pos. feedback (& we all know that's not going to happen).
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Why do they sterilize needles for lethal injection?

Ok I’ll settle this…
Paul you pay for them, when you get them if you don’t want them I’ll give you what you have in them.
You give Todd a good feedback
And Todd you give Paul a good feedback and the case is closed.
I’m willing to do this because I was thinking about bidding on them but I didn’t.
And for the record they are not a 9 if they are the ones I got 2 years ago on E bay are a 15

[This message has been edited by ohioindy (edited 11-13-2007).]

Just so everyone knows here is EVERY email copied & pasted IN THEIR ENTIRETY (headers & such cut out).

My first message through ebay:
Hi,
Ebay said $56 for shipping of these to Ga. (30633). I would like to have them but that seems excessive. (they can be rolled up to be pretty compact.) Can you give me an actual shipping cost?
Thanks,
DriverToo
*************
Todd:
It says $19.95 right there on the auction. Where are you seeing $56?
*************
Me:
In the auction at the top it says
"Shipping costs: US $56.54 UPS Ground Service to 30633, United States",
& at the bottom it says
"Ships to United States Country: United States Zip or postal code: 30633
Shipping and Handling To Service
US $56.54 30633, United States UPS Ground
1 to 6 business days*".

Are you sure you're looking at the Indy floor mats
auction? If you'll ship for $20 I'll bid on them.
Thanks,
~ Paul
aka DriverToo
*************
Todd:
Yes, I'll looking at it right now and I see $19.95. I don't know what to say
but I don't see what you see. Are you sure you're looking at MY auction?
*************
Me:
Hi Todd,
It depends on the zip code. Ebay has both our zips on
record & calculates the shipping automaticly.
Verify that you'll ship for $19.95 & I'll bid.
Thanks,
~ Paul
*************
Todd:
I always ship at cost regardless of what you see on ebay. Bid away
*************
(After the auction
*************
Me:
Hi Todd,
Well I think we have a problem. You said these were a "solid 9 out of 10" in the auction, but you didn't post a photo of the back untill after I bid. Seeing the back I'd have to say that the driver's side is a 6 or at best a 7. I would not have bid if you had posted that photo before. I would be glad to pay the amount for a "solid 9".
Since I was the only bidder, I think we should declair the transaction "null & void", due to inacurate information in your auction. No feedback, no hard feelings.
*************
Todd:
You definition of 6 or 7 or 9 is irrelevant. I stated clearly in the auction that you are to ask ALL relevant questions to satisfy yourself. I posted an accurate picture of the back of the mats, per your request, and described the product accurately. You could have retracted your bid after the additional pictures were posted. You did not and I now have incured an Auction charge from Ebay.
You are free to resell the mats or keep them as spares if you are dis-satisfied but they are yours now. In future I suggest you do your due diligence before bidding.
*************
Me:
You posted the picture on the LAST day of the auction, & it ended BEFORE I had a chance to see it. I bid trusting your description of a "solid 9 out of 10", which was misleading (some would say fradulent). How much does ebay charge you?
*************
Todd:
I find your use of the word "fraudulent" to be offensive. All you need to do is consider my feedback, my PFF standing, and the fact that I FULLY complied with your request for an unedited fully detailed image which WAS provided within 24 hours of your request.

Let me be clear about this sir, your need to take reasonable steps to satisfy yourself as to the condition of these VERY GOOD "9 out of 10" floor mats is stated in black and white in the terms of the auction. YOUR failure to do so does not give you the right to call me a thief or back out of your legal and moral obligations under this auction.

Hence, the consequences. The terms of the auction state you have 10 days to pay for your merchandise. If you do not I will have to block you from bidding on any of my auctions. That is NOT something you want to happen if you own an Indy Fiero. I have 6 sets of mats like these and 3 of them are in even better condition than the ones you bought, including one set of new ones still in the bag. From original SD parts to all interior and exterior parts I am one of the best sources of material for these cars there is. You will receive a PFF 'seller beware' warning and potentially a negative eBay feedback rating if you do not complete the transaction per the terms of the auction.

What you do with the mats is your own concern. Sell them if you are not happy with them, donate them, or use them as winter mudders. I don't care. But you bought them. Next time, don't bid until you are SURE you want to buy. I am just a guy trying to help the Fiero community and clean out some of my excess inventory. I am not responsible for cleaning-up your mistakes.
*************
Me:
OK: If you think these are a "9 out of 10" then post the images on PFF & see if anyone agrees with you.
As far as buying anything else from you, I don't think so. The way you're handling this & you're idea of a "9 out of 10" both would keep me from ever bidding on anything else (please *do* block me from bidding) or trusting you to buy something through PFF. What is your username there, anyway?
BTW I never called you a theif. Get your facts straight.
Thank you,
~ Paul
*************
Todd:
There is no need to post them on PFF when people can just look up the
auction. Do your worst. My PFF handle is Toddster.
I will expect payment within the 10 day period.
*************
That's it. I NEVER requested additional pics & I'll say it ONE MORE TIME: I DID NOT see the pic before the auction ended & DID NOT have a chance to retract my bid.
Again, everyone: I'm sorry for all this. I just wanted to get opinions on the rating of the mat to show Todd that he was wrong about that. I thought maybe if he saw that & I paid for the cost of the auction we could work this out. Obviously he's only interested in getting the full amount, & quite estatic that he was able to con someone into buying them at that price. If they're so great & are worth so much, why is he so afraid to relist them?
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Curiosity killed the cat but for a while I was the suspect.

I am not going to try to read all of this. BUT those mats are not 9 out of 10. If I won the auction and then seen the photo I would be taking this up with Ebay and if that didn't work get the black silicone and fix the back of them. This will help some. Or just resell at a loss and forget it.

Indy mats or not, the scale is the same. They look to be about 4 or 5 out of 10 in my book. I sold some NOS mats and wouldn't even give them a 10 without looking them over very carefully and disclosing any "issues" with storage or such. NOS mats are 9 or 10s, these are not. Call it wear or age... but a rusted out GTO is not the same as a rust free GTO... same here, rare or not.

J.

Paul, don't pay for the mats. give Todd a - on ebay and move on. You're not out of any money and only lost a little bit of time

Todd, file a non paying bidder and relist the auction. give Paul a - on ebay and move on. You're not out of any money and only lost a little bit of time