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Held motorsports tubular subframe, so why not archie? by mnstrfiero
Started on: 12-08-2007 08:54 PM
Replies: 17
Last post by: opm2000 on 12-16-2007 06:12 PM
mnstrfiero
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Report this Post12-08-2007 08:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mnstrfieroClick Here to Email mnstrfieroSend a Private Message to mnstrfieroDirect Link to This Post
I can't help but look into my old "fiero parts book" and see the advertisement that Held once had. They use to advertise a tubular rear subframe that would allow for an engine to be installed the traditional "supercar" LONGITUDINAL.

the interesting part of this advertisment was that they claimed it could be used on a "stock" looking fiero WITHOUT stretching the frame (as would be necessary with the typical kit car application). Before everyone justs to the conclusion of an automatic th325/th425 being used, this add stated that the setup allowed for a porsche 930 transmission to be applied. it even aid a G-50 box would work with the "side shift" conversion.

i guess i can't help but dream of a combination that would allow for a nearly bullet proof manual transmission to be used?

so the question is, does anyone know if at least one was ever produced and used?
And.... Archie (hopefully you are also reading this) obviously i don't know if this idea ever appealed to you, but how come you haven't pushed this concept to reality in a kit form? Aside from the cost of R&D (which i feel that your shop would be one of a few that could support such a project) i think there would be a line out the door?

in fact, i also purchased a porsche 914 just so i could just the correct layout with a chevy v8. i decided not to only after i decided that the car was more than a decade older than the fiero, and would ultimately cost me more money to convert the v8, and restore the 914 than would a 3800sc/v8 fiero swap.

any thoughts anyone?
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Report this Post12-09-2007 12:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
Not sure where the "traditional supercar" layout is longitudinal came from. Ferrari 308 is transverse, as well as the first Lamborghini - the Miura, a transverse mounted V12.

A longitudinal V8 and G50 transaxle won't fit in a stock length Fiero. You might be able to mount the engine behind the transaxle, like a Porsche 911, but that would be rear engined and a HUGE weight balance problem.

Here's a link to bubbajoexxx's Northstar / G50 buildup. You can see he had to lengthen the car a foot to get it all to fit.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/033676-50.html
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Archie
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Report this Post12-09-2007 12:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ArchieClick Here to visit Archie's HomePageClick Here to Email ArchieSend a Private Message to ArchieDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mnstrfiero:

I can't help but look into my old "fiero parts book" and see the advertisement that Held once had. They use to advertise a tubular rear subframe that would allow for an engine to be installed the traditional "supercar" LONGITUDINAL.

the interesting part of this advertisment was that they claimed it could be used on a "stock" looking fiero WITHOUT stretching the frame (as would be necessary with the typical kit car application). Before everyone justs to the conclusion of an automatic th325/th425 being used, this add stated that the setup allowed for a porsche 930 transmission to be applied. it even aid a G-50 box would work with the "side shift" conversion.

i guess i can't help but dream of a combination that would allow for a nearly bullet proof manual transmission to be used?

so the question is, does anyone know if at least one was ever produced and used?
And.... Archie (hopefully you are also reading this) obviously i don't know if this idea ever appealed to you, but how come you haven't pushed this concept to reality in a kit form? Aside from the cost of R&D (which i feel that your shop would be one of a few that could support such a project) i think there would be a line out the door?

in fact, i also purchased a porsche 914 just so i could just the correct layout with a chevy v8. i decided not to only after i decided that the car was more than a decade older than the fiero, and would ultimately cost me more money to convert the v8, and restore the 914 than would a 3800sc/v8 fiero swap.

any thoughts anyone?


As far a mounting the SBC North & South in the Fiero with a Porsche transaxle it just won't work without the engine protruding into the passenger compartment. I looked into this about 17 years ago, I can't remember all the dimensions right now but I do remember that if you take the distance that the axle centerlines are from the face of the bellhousing & add that to the length of the SBC engin. The engine will have to come up 13" inside the car. That means that if you put the seat forward as far as you can, your back would still be resting on the front end of the SBC cylinder head.

I did see that early Held advertizement & that was right after they bought the business from Darell Armstrong. I know Darell Armstrong & I know the Helds & at that time I was convinced that when Darell sold the business, there was an honest misunderstanding between the parties. Held thought that they were told that it would fit & Darell thought for sure that he had told them that it wouldn't.

Whatever.

You can prove it for yourself by adding the lenght of the SBC engine to the distance from the bellhousing fact to the axle Centerline on the transaxle. then compare that measurement to your nearest Fiero.

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 12-09-2007).]

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rockcrawl
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Report this Post12-09-2007 12:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rockcrawlClick Here to visit rockcrawl's HomePageClick Here to Email rockcrawlSend a Private Message to rockcrawlDirect Link to This Post
Dave Held still makes the tubular cradles, google Team321.
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Report this Post12-09-2007 03:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ErikClick Here to Email ErikSend a Private Message to ErikDirect Link to This Post
there is a short Porsche transaxle that would possibly allow such a swap but it is rare ..can't quite remember what model it came out of ..it seems it was a 924/ 944 derivative .Regardless, A v6 could probably be used with a 930 or G50 tranaxle without frame lengthening
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Report this Post12-09-2007 04:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mnstrfieroClick Here to Email mnstrfieroSend a Private Message to mnstrfieroDirect Link to This Post
i wouldn't mind sticking with a 3800sc or even an ls1? the 944 is a RWD front end layout?

thanks, i will look into team 321
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Report this Post12-09-2007 04:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ErikClick Here to Email ErikSend a Private Message to ErikDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mnstrfiero:

i wouldn't mind sticking with a 3800sc or even an ls1? the 944 is a RWD front end layout?

thanks, i will look into team 321


The 944 is front engine rear transaxle config ..this may help you out
http://www.kennedyeng.com/

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Report this Post12-09-2007 06:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruDirect Link to This Post
Here is the 1944 5 speed:


Here is the later 914 trans:


Here is the G50 (mounted upside down)


All of these porsche trannys have the axle centerline behind the bellhousing area adding signiifcant lenth from the front of the engine to the axle centerline and they protrude even further behind the axle centerline.

The 325/425 is the overall shortest longitudinal setup I am aware of. This setup has the axle centerline mid engine.

The second shortest would be using the chrysler LHS 4 speed auto trans. Here is a 99 Concorde trans:

It has the axle centerline going through the bellhousing area and gains you a couple of inches and the rear of the tranny is quite short compared to the porsche units.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-09-2007).]

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Report this Post12-09-2007 12:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AJxtcmanClick Here to Email AJxtcmanSend a Private Message to AJxtcmanDirect Link to This Post
T vs L Hmmmmm.

T can be good if it is done right or it can mess up a car.








L is very sexy






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Report this Post12-09-2007 12:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WAWUZATClick Here to Email WAWUZATSend a Private Message to WAWUZATDirect Link to This Post
I believe Held bought the whole product line that Darryl Armstrong at Ryane Motorsports used to offer (I bought my dropped front spindles from Ryane). There were two tubular rear frames offered. The first one utilized a Porsche transaxle that required a stretch (was made for the Testarossa & Lambo kits), and the second one was a cradle which used a longitudinal V8 using a TH425 transaxle. The second one did not require a frame stretch, but it did require flipping the differential on the TH425 ... something that hasn't been accomplished with much regularity. Flipping the diff was required because the drivetrain was to be mounted with the transaxle positioned ahead/forward of the engine, which placed that heavy tranny between the axles instead of hanging out the back. I was checking into it a lot back then, and I still have a rebuilt TH425 with differential and axles which I bought, but never used.

[This message has been edited by WAWUZAT (edited 12-09-2007).]

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Report this Post12-09-2007 12:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Russ544Send a Private Message to Russ544Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by AJxtcman:

T vs L Hmmmmm.

T can be good if it is done right or it can mess up a car.








What the &^@% did they do to that poor Cad?

Russ544

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Report this Post12-09-2007 12:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Russ544Send a Private Message to Russ544Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by WAWUZAT:

The second one did not require a frame stretch, but it did require flipping the differential on the TH425 ... something that hasn't been accomplished with much regularity. Flipping the diff was required because the drivetrain was to be mounted with the transaxle positioned ahead/forward of the engine, which placed that heavy tranny between the axles instead of hanging out the back. I was checking into it a lot back then, and I still have a rebuilt TH425 with differential and axles which I bought, but never used.



http://www.streetdreamsbyross.com/fiero.php
look under the "engine and trans mounts" section for the adaptor to flip the diff and a front engine mount brkt.

Russ544

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 12-09-2007).]

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Report this Post12-09-2007 02:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ArchieClick Here to visit Archie's HomePageClick Here to Email ArchieSend a Private Message to ArchieDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mnstrfiero:
the interesting part of this advertisment was that they claimed it could be used on a "stock" looking fiero WITHOUT stretching the frame (as would be necessary with the typical kit car application). Before everyone justs to the conclusion of an automatic th325/th425 being used, this add stated that the setup allowed for a porsche 930 transmission to be applied. it even aid a G-50 box would work with the "side shift" conversion.

i guess i can't help but dream of a combination that would allow for a nearly bullet proof manual transmission to be used?

so the question is, does anyone know if at least one was ever produced and used?
And.... Archie (hopefully you are also reading this) obviously i don't know if this idea ever appealed to you, but how come you haven't pushed this concept to reality in a kit form? Aside from the cost of R&D (which i feel that your shop would be one of a few that could support such a project) i think there would be a line out the door?



The specific question I was asked was if i had considered using a Porsche transaxle to mount a SBC into a Fiero.

The answer was that yes I did consider it until I took some actual measurements & determined that there was not enough room.

As I said, that was years & years ago & I didn't remember what the exact measurements were for the bellhousing face to axle centerline of the transaxle but as I recall it was about 14 to 15 inches.

I was at the shop today & took a few measurements of the SBC engine & the Fiero chassis.

First of all some measurements.

The SBC without anything on the front of the engine except my H.B.P. is 24" long
The LS2 engine with the LS2 H.B.P. is 24.5" long.

In this picture I took a pc. of green tape & put it on the forward engine cradle mounting bolt & measured 24" to the rear wwheel centerline.



As many of you know the forward engine cradle mounting bolt is up under the passenger compartment by a few inches. So if you took the length of a SBC (24") & added it to say 14" for the bellhousing to axle C-Line on the transaxle, the front of the engine would be about 14" in front of the forward engine cradle mounting bolt. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the engine is going to be a long way up into the passenger compartment.

Here are 2 more interesting pictures. Everyone knows that the rear axle C-Line is almost in the same place as the top center Strut mounting bolt. These pics are of a car we just took the body & all the windows out of Friday. You'll see that from the interior side of the bulkhead that the rear window mounted onto to the top strut mount is just over 20". So if you could mount the SBC North & South with out any distance for a transaxle, the front of the engine would already be into the passenger compartment by more than 4".





Archie
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mnstrfiero
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Report this Post12-09-2007 06:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mnstrfieroClick Here to Email mnstrfieroSend a Private Message to mnstrfieroDirect Link to This Post
archie, thanks a lot fo posting....

i did get a hold of Dave Held, and he filled me in on the necessary stretch needed for a swap of this nature.

the frame would need an 11" stretch for a v8/porsche gear box

and a 7" stretch for a 3800/ or grand national swap....

basically, there is not a tubular subframe that allows one to retain the "stock wheelbase" and stock fiero appearance.

i already figured as much, but i kept reading through the "fiero handbook" and it suggested that a v8 could, in fact, be used with a porsche transaxle in a stock fiero wheelbase.... i was actually asking myself the same question, "won't the engine move into the cabin"?... and finally the answer (which all of yuo knew anyway) is yes.

i don't know, i just wanted to get a "supercar" on a "shoe string" budget, basically. The idea of an LS-x with a porsche 6-speed box and.... possibly twin turbos? Or even a kenne-bell blower?

the combination would put my mind at ease about blowing up gearboxes! thats for sure. I really do baby my cars, occasionally ripping into them. but for the most part, i don't want to be replacing parts several times over if i don't have to. So this goes for axles, transaxles, etc. At the same time, i don't want to be babying the car or worrying about blowing it up every time i want to have a little "fun". Oh wheel, looks like i'll be going back to the GM 5 or 6-speed as the only two manual tranny options... aside from WCF's NSX option.
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Report this Post12-09-2007 07:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WAWUZATClick Here to Email WAWUZATSend a Private Message to WAWUZATDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Russ544: http://www.streetdreamsbyross.com/fiero.php
look under the "engine and trans mounts" section for the adaptor to flip the diff and a front engine mount brkt.
Russ544


Well, ashes and cinders! Thanks for the link. I wish that thing was available a few years sooner, then I wouldn't be fitting a N* into my car now.

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Report this Post12-09-2007 07:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Russ544Send a Private Message to Russ544Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by WAWUZAT:


Well, ashes and cinders! Thanks for the link. I wish that thing was available a few years sooner, then I wouldn't be fitting a N* into my car now.


you'll like the N* better anywho. it's a sweetheart of a motor .

Russ
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Report this Post12-15-2007 12:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DavieroSend a Private Message to DavieroDirect Link to This Post
A few comments and questions about longitudinal configurations:

First review these posts from this thread: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/086983.html
(The pictures from the other thread don't seem to copy, so go there and see.)

 
quote
When I saw that transmission, I immediately thought of this:
The car pictured above is an IMSA Fiero with a 4.3 liter V6. The chassis is not stretched. The general size and shape of the transmission seems to be similar. So such a thing may be possible with the VW tranny.

 
quote

quote
an IMSA Fiero with a 4.3 liter V6. The chassis is not stretched


The wheelbase may not be stretched, but that is a tube frame car and the engine is protruding into the area that would normally be inside the cabin on a stock Fiero chassis.

 
quote
Hey guys-

I got out of Fieros and have been away for a little while, but I've been working with late model Passats and I found that what's called the B5 Passat, which is from around '97-'03-ish, has a FWD longitudinally mounted configuration. I know a lot of folks want to attempt a longitudinal Fiero setup so I thought I'd pass this along. I was into Fieros for 16 years and I had never heard of using the VW Passat B5 5-speed. I don't know if it's possible even, but I thought I'd pass the idea along to the Fiero continuum. I've seen them on www.car-part.com for as little as $250. Here's a picture in case anyone might want to try it. All I ask is that if someone tries it, please let me know, it would be great to see!
-Rick Stewart


and finally from the thread we are in now:

 
quote

Here is the 1944 5 speed:


Here is the later 914 trans:


Here is the G50 (mounted upside down)


All of these porsche trannys have the axle centerline behind the bellhousing area adding signiifcant lenth from the front of the engine to the axle centerline and they protrude even further behind the axle centerline.

The 325/425 is the overall shortest longitudinal setup I am aware of. This setup has the axle centerline mid engine.

The second shortest would be using the chrysler LHS 4 speed auto trans. Here is a 99 Concorde trans:

It has the axle centerline going through the bellhousing area and gains you a couple of inches and the rear of the tranny is quite short compared to the porsche units.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-09-2007).]



Now my questions and comments:

1) While the G50 Porsche may be the most desirable functionally, it is a difficult fit due the length and is likely the most expensive at 2 to 3 thousand for a rebuilt unit.

2) The Passat or A4 looks looks like a shorter and better alternative for fitment, but can it handle a V8, say a Northstar?

3) The Chrysler LHS 4 speed auto trans is another better alternative for fitment if you would like an automatic, but does it need a trans controller like the Caddi Northstar trans, and how much power and torque can it handle?

4) Back to the G50: to gain length, the trans can be stepped back 2 to 3 inches from the axle center line as referenced above. This could be done along with a smaller increase in wheelbase and a similar amount of encroachment into the passenger cabin to gain the total foot of length required for the G50. But: What influence does having this fore/aft deflection on the CV's have on the car's performance or CV life?

5) I know already about the TH 325 and 425, but realize that they are old, and very heavy, although the 425 is apparently indestructable.

Comments and answers anybody?
Thanks, Dave.


------------------
Daviero - 88 N* GT

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opm2000
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Report this Post12-16-2007 06:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for opm2000Click Here to visit opm2000's HomePageClick Here to Email opm2000Send a Private Message to opm2000Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


The 325/425 is the overall shortest longitudinal setup I am aware of. This setup has the axle centerline mid engine.




And plenty of room for a stock LT1, using the Camaro/TransAm accessory setup.



David Breeze


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[This message has been edited by opm2000 (edited 12-16-2007).]

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