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turbo on a budget....is it possible? by DEMONCHILD
Started on: 11-06-2007 08:24 PM
Replies: 29
Last post by: Leafy on 11-18-2007 03:47 PM
DEMONCHILD
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Report this Post11-06-2007 08:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DEMONCHILDClick Here to Email DEMONCHILDSend a Private Message to DEMONCHILDDirect Link to This Post
turbo on a budget...is it possible to turbo a stock v6 spending verry little i.e buying just the turbo and modifiying the stock exaust to acomidate a turbo? and where can i get a cheap turbo?
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Report this Post11-06-2007 08:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTClick Here to Email Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTDirect Link to This Post
If I recall correctly, the Volvo turbos do a good job. You just need one from a car with under 3 liters. If you can weld, you can get mandrel bent 16 guage pipe and plumb it up yourself. You will have to do some playing with the fuel delivery though because the turbo can lean you out alot. somebody is sure to pipe up who has done it. Good luck

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Report this Post11-07-2007 12:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for HudiniClick Here to Email HudiniSend a Private Message to HudiniDirect Link to This Post
With allot of planning and having the tools you can keep the costs down quite a bit. The T3 from a junkyard is pretty cheap. I've seen prices in the $30-$75 range. Probably want to rebuild it though at about $90. Modifying the stock crossover will be a big challenge in design but can be done with the right tools and some extra pipe.

Tuning can be handled several ways. '85 ECM plus knock sensor with module or 7730 and knock sensor. No sense killing the engine cause you did not have knock protection. The boost timing controller plus rising rate boost referenced fuel pressure regulator is another option although much more expensive and not as accurate.

Do you have a budget in mind or just absolute cheapest you can get away with?
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Report this Post11-07-2007 01:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttClick Here to Email JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttDirect Link to This Post
You probably could, i don' t know how decent your fab skills are, but I wouldn't do it. Trust me, I was an ignorant teen ager not very long ago and i tried this, lol. The car was faster, and ultimately, the setup worked, but i'm embarrassed to think back to it. What a joke that was. Save your money, and your time. When you have the ability and the money to do it right, then swap to a different motor. If the 2.8 idea is definitely your thing, you can go to a 3400 roller block with fiero top end parts and have an all around better performer for the turbo build.
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Joseph Upson
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Report this Post11-07-2007 06:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonDirect Link to This Post
If you go through the trouble to upgrade to a 3400 short block it's better to do the complete engine, not as a matter of opinion but a matter of experience because I've done it and since it's more power you are after its just better to use the motor as is than reduce it considerably from its stock power output with the Fiero intake and then boost it back up. I've made these mistakes already in the face of good advice which I eventually wound up following after the money was wasted.

The difficulty will be in the transmission you have. The automatic is easy to work around however it has a hard time holding up to the power increase for long and at some point 3rd gear will slip away.

The manual trannies cables get in the way.

You can do it for a very reasonable price but you must start with a desent welder, a MIG with shielding gas and wire and heat control ability is very good start for a beginner and will set you back about $350, if you read the instructions and start with .023 wire with disciplined practice you can weld well enough to get the job done with a few hours practice, either that or I'm just that good which I don't believe.

Order mandrel bends to the tune of 14 gauge because heat is harder on mild steel and you need the durability to avoid having to repair or rebuild exhaust parts due to cracking, turbo exhaust will burn through 18 gauge steel in a matter of days or weeks, I've done it. Another very good source is mandrel bent stock exhaust systems from the salvage yard of which most are stainless, very durable and usually 14 gauge. You'll need a good saws all and vice to help with cutting.

Invest about $400 in tuning equipment, there are ways around it but I'm not going to suggest it because if you don't know enough about how the engine management system works short cuts will make it a brief moment of triumph with lots of repairs. Or you can take the easy route and have some of the members with the know how burn you a few chips for much less cost wise in exhchange for more patience with reaching the right tune.

Install an expansion joint, GM includes them on every V6 with two into one exhaust that I'm aware of.

Here is one of my first turbo outfits using a T3 from the Saab, the Ford cars used a turbine exhaust end that turns down over the area the stock exhaust exits to so spending a little time on Ebay can help you track one down, it is probably the most popular and effective stock T3 to start with. I built this about 11 years ago back before there was any such thing as Pennocks Fiero forum and before people spoke much about turbos outside of Chrysler who used them quite a bit. If only I had known the buisness potential of the kind of stuff I was doing back then. This was for an automatic and it bolted to the top of the transmission, GM was not installing the bellows expansion joint at the time from what I recalled so I made a slip joint which you can see was welded up in the picture. Nearly every bit of that crossover is fabricated from a stock Fiero exhaust Y-pipe. The first Fiero turbo setup was installed on a base 87 that I installed a V6 with a 4 speed in. Hurt a lot of feelings with that car.



3400 short block with Fiero intake and heads.




Ford exhaust end I mentioned.





3100 Short block



What happens when you become Dr. Frankenstein and start ignoring the rules.




I really enjoy this stuff, it's not about "building it right" with expensive parts and waiting to gain experience with me, it's about creativity, and taking initiative to do what many think you have to be a genius or multi degreed professional to do. There are some things you can't teach, so why wait for so called experience which is not the best teacher anyway. Arm yourself with the right tools and make it happen.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-07-2007).]

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rjblaze
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Report this Post11-07-2007 01:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rjblazeClick Here to Email rjblazeSend a Private Message to rjblazeDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:





Joseph, do you know the pressure drop across that intercooler? How about it's efficiency?
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Joseph Upson
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Report this Post11-07-2007 03:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rjblaze:


Joseph, do you know the pressure drop across that intercooler? How about it's efficiency?


Not worth the effort in that location and at such a conservative boost level of 7psi. as well as being on a V6. If it were completely in the air stream it might have been more practical.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-07-2007).]

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Francis T
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Report this Post11-07-2007 03:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Francis TClick Here to visit Francis T's HomePageClick Here to Email Francis TSend a Private Message to Francis TDirect Link to This Post
If not experienced at, and have the tools for fabrication (cutting, fitting, welding metal), and know a lot about tunning I would say, don't bother. There's just too much to it to get it right. You should also make sure your bearings are all in great shape. Best to just buy a proven kit or keep a NA engine.
BTW: Also, in my opinion, you really need to use an intercooler to make it worth doing.

We offten hear; can I do this or that cheep......... When it comes to building lots of H.P. with RELIABILITY that answer is generally no, unless you have your own well equiped shop and even then it's not easy.
There's an old saying on this topic: Messing around with sports or muscle cars is great way to make a small fortune, you just have to start with a large one first.

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Joseph Upson
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Report this Post11-07-2007 05:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonDirect Link to This Post
Doing it yourself is what this forum is all about and this thread is another of what those of us who have been members for sometime on the forum see on a regular basis, people with ideas and the willingness to learn but in need of a point in the right direction. I'm sure the thought of buying a complete kit has probably already crossed his mind and been considered but his opting to attempt to do it himself.

A large number of the members on the forum with above average mechanical and fabrication skills started the way he has with this thread. I had no training or welding experience when I built my first turbo project, but I could read literature very well and I knew my money would be much better spent and less of it if I purchased the tools and taught myself. So perhaps his interest should be encouraged along with the proper warning. I knew the risks that went along with my short cuts and was willing to take them and that's something he also needs to understand.


As for the intercooler, the intercooler has to prove beneficial in it's application at any boost level. In the picture above I lost power in that setup with it installed because I wasn't running high enough boost pressure to overcome the added plumbing and increased resistance, however the end result was a considerable increase in power with and without it so suggesting turbocharging an engine is not worth it without an intercooler is a bit on the extreme side.

You have to crunch the numbers to see why it has often been said that low boost systems do not warrant an intercooler because the intercooler has to add a net efficiency increase to make it worth the effort once its restriction to the airflow has been deducted. In my case if I was running 7 psi without the intercooler and 6 psi with it due to the pressure drop across it, and it only added enough cooling capacity to increase my power output by 12 hp minus the 10 hp from the 1 psi I lost plus another reduction for the additional plumbing it's not worth it. Turning the boost up helps but the exhaust still has more resistance due to the 1 psi of resistance created by the intercooler so overall power may go up but at the same time overall efficiency goes down.

I just don't feel a go and buy it ready made position is a good sevice to someone expressing the desire to embark on a project no matter how challngeing. I have built several engines, automatic transmissions and turbo projects because help was offered when I inquired about something I had little knowledge of. I would never trade what I have learned how to do with my own hands over the years by trying to do something I had no experience with for a production version by someone else, but that's me, as far as I'm concerned it's a good thing they split the atom when they did so I wouldn't be tying up my time trying to do it now. To each his own.
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Report this Post11-07-2007 06:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Francis TClick Here to visit Francis T's HomePageClick Here to Email Francis TSend a Private Message to Francis TDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

Doing it yourself is what this forum is all about and this thread is another of what those of us who have been members for sometime on the forum see on a regular basis, people with ideas and the willingness to learn but in need of a point in the right direction. I'm sure the thought of buying a complete kit has probably already crossed his mind and been considered but his opting to attempt to do it himself.

Reply: Im not oposed to him learning how do something, heck we would never sell any headers or intakes if it werent for the DIY folks. It's just that from his statement he seems to be a bit green (If I'm wrong, sorry) to tackle such a project and he certainly does not seem to have money to throw around correctiong mistakes! Can it be done cheeply, was his question.

Quote: however the end result was a considerable increase in power with and without it so suggesting turbocharging an engine is not worth it without an intercooler is a bit on the extreme side.

Reply: Extreme side, well it just seems almost silly not to employ an intercooler after going through all the work to put a turbo on a car. Why pump HOT air into an engine? It's not like adding an intercooler is rocket science or very costly! Most OEM turbo setups use intercoolers and we all know how they are when it comes to pinching pennys, they are worth it.

Quote:
I would never trade what I have learned how to do with my own hands over the years by trying to do something I had no experience with for a production version by someone else, but that's me, as far as I'm concerned it's a good thing they split the atom when they did so I wouldn't be tying up my time trying to do it now. To each his own.


Reply: Indeed, learning by doing is great. Still, when you first started to mess around with engines, I dont think you did so with a DIY turbo project. To tell someone who may not have the experience, tools, and especailly budget to simply go for it, is not quite fair. While we want to encourage DIY, we dont want to turn someone off forever to the hobby because they failed get what they wanted or simply ran out of money.

Again, if you are experienced and have what you need to get it done, sorry for thinking your new to this stuff.

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Will
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Report this Post11-07-2007 07:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post
Turbo on a budget?

Fast, Cheap, Reliable.

You can have any two.
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Report this Post11-07-2007 07:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SLOWnSTEADYClick Here to Email SLOWnSTEADYSend a Private Message to SLOWnSTEADYDirect Link to This Post
turbo + small budget = EBAY

I have about $250+/- (not including shipping) in my DOHC turbo setup (not including engine mods) sniped most of it off ebay...
Garrett/aiResearch TO4 turbo (freshly rebuilt when i bought it)-------$90shipped
L67 injectors------$20shipped
fuel pressure regulator (ditched factory to try and squeeze a little more flow by upping the pressure a little) $15shipped
Side Mount Intercooler-----$20shipped
XS Power B.O.V. (their BOVs and WGs are pretty good, dont their turbos unless you only wanna run like >8psi)------$30shipped
60MM W.G. (i believe it is also XS Power)-----$80shipped
Manual Boost Controler------$10shipped
A/F gauge, Boost.Vacuum gauge and water temp gauge (all "Cobalt" by autometer)-----$65shipped

I only have a few little things left to buy like the V-band flange, some 3" exhaust pipe, and some intercooler piping. The engien mods will end up running around $1000 or so as i am doing the work myself and have a bunch of connections for machine shops and all that good stuff....
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Report this Post11-07-2007 09:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaDirect Link to This Post
I beleive that I was among the first to construct a home built turbo kit for the Fiero. My first attempt was done with a custom crossover pipe a T-3 turbo flange, a Ford Garret T-3 turbo off of an 85 T-Bird $75 in the junkyard) , an $80 rebuild kit and some miscellaneous smal items.
Construct a crossover pipe (measure measure measure & measure) from 2" mandrel bent SS tubing. You can do the cuts figure where the turbo should be located and have it mig welded together. Rebuild a good used turbo, use a new mounting flange gasket, fabricate a floating turbo support bracket ( do not solid mount it) attach the exhaust pipe, and start tuning. I did this one for about $700 about 9 years ago

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DEMONCHILD
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Report this Post11-08-2007 11:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DEMONCHILDClick Here to Email DEMONCHILDSend a Private Message to DEMONCHILDDirect Link to This Post
i want my fiero to look stock but have some more power than a stock fiero i like the look of the valve covers and intake ther odd and i am odd so i like the fiero alot
and ive looked at the kits and i dont have that kind of money... i know people who have the know how i just gotta supply the parts....i have friends who build race car motors and others that work in machine shops....i can get alot of machining for free and parts for free.. i got my whole intake and tb ported along with my heads and exhaust free of charge....well i had to buy him a six pack of budweiser after wards but that didnt bother me at all

[This message has been edited by DEMONCHILD (edited 11-08-2007).]

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Hudini
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Report this Post11-08-2007 11:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for HudiniClick Here to Email HudiniSend a Private Message to HudiniDirect Link to This Post
Did we answer your question or help you decide?

Here are two threads I like allot. Might give you more ideas:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...2/HTML/085221-2.html
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/085925.html
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Report this Post11-09-2007 12:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RCRClick Here to Email RCRSend a Private Message to RCRDirect Link to This Post
I have a small turbo that I recieved on a trade. It's too small for my 4.0, so it's just collecting dust. I don't know too much about it, other than to say it looks like it needs a rebuild and some of the welding was rough. I dug up some info I was told before I took it in:
"I also have a almost complete fiero Turbo Kit. Its a rebuilt t4 turbo, everything you need besides the oil return line."
It also has a manual Voodoo boost controller and Autometer boost gauge. PM me if you're interested or want more info.

Bob
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DEMONCHILD
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Report this Post11-10-2007 11:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DEMONCHILDClick Here to Email DEMONCHILDSend a Private Message to DEMONCHILDDirect Link to This Post
what kind of tuneing will i have to do once a turbo is installed
note...i have a brand new motor that hasnt ran since it left the shop it was built and tested at...timeing needs set & tb needs to be adjusted i think before it will start and run properly now should i do these without turbo and install turbo after tuned and running good? do i need bigger injectors, fuel pressure reg for higher fuel pressures, and or a air/fuel mixture gauge?????

basically what are necessities and what are comodities when doing a turbo up for the 2.8

[This message has been edited by DEMONCHILD (edited 11-10-2007).]

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Hudini
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Report this Post11-10-2007 11:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for HudiniClick Here to Email HudiniSend a Private Message to HudiniDirect Link to This Post
Might as well do it all at once to keep from doing extra work. The turbo won't affect setting base timing. The TB should not need adjusting. The ECM controls the idle. The "idle screw" should not be messed with. Just a thorough cleaning will do if it ran fine before.

Earlier you said "turbo on a budget". I take that to mean "cheap"? I see 2 cheap options. '85 ECM with a knock sensor and an add on knock module or the 1227730 ECM and a knock sensor (or 1227727 if you can find one). Darth Fiero can burn you a chip to run the turbo with either setup. Just depends on which is cheaper and easier for you.

I used the 7730 ECM and the knock sensor that came on my 3.4L engine. Tuning is still ongoing as I made some changes to my engine and Darth is using my ALDL log files to dial it in. I found a 7730 ECM last week for $36 with pigtails. Don't know how much an '85 ECM goes for these days.

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Report this Post11-11-2007 07:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rjblazeClick Here to Email rjblazeSend a Private Message to rjblazeDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


Not worth the effort in that location and at such a conservative boost level of 7psi. as well as being on a V6. If it were completely in the air stream it might have been more practical.



I am actually planning on installing mine in the driver's side fenderwell behind my Archie's rockers.....should get quite a good amount of air in that area.
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Report this Post11-11-2007 06:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for N2weeksClick Here to Email N2weeksSend a Private Message to N2weeksDirect Link to This Post
why would you want to use a "small" t3 from a volvo or any 80's turbo car for that matter? i think turbo tech. has come a long way in the last few years....hence 2.0 evolutions making almost 300 bhp on a 16g and making older guys with v8s angry when they go DOWN!
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Report this Post11-11-2007 07:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DEMONCHILDClick Here to Email DEMONCHILDSend a Private Message to DEMONCHILDDirect Link to This Post
ok well im buying this http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/039965.html
the turbo stuff im geting includes 3 proms, injectors, exhaust pipe, boost gauge, and i cant remember what else
so what all do i still need?
i am wanting to get a 7730 ecm from darthfiero i think he is the one making them to sell on here but thats later on down the road

[This message has been edited by DEMONCHILD (edited 11-11-2007).]

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Report this Post11-13-2007 03:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DEMONCHILDClick Here to Email DEMONCHILDSend a Private Message to DEMONCHILDDirect Link to This Post


will the prom chips work with my 86 ecm?

how do i hook up the wastegate regulator ?..... im assuming it works off vaccume


1.turbo ~check
2. pipes ~check
3.boost gauge ~check
4.injectors ~check
5.boost regulator ~check
6.waste gate regulator ~check
7.mod egr ~check
8. 3 prom chips ~check

what else am i missing or in need of??
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Report this Post11-13-2007 07:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rjblazeClick Here to Email rjblazeSend a Private Message to rjblazeDirect Link to This Post
You will need to get the 7730 ecm on your own from a salvage yard.......there is an entire thread on these still active here in the "Tech" section. Darth can program the chip needed for your combo. As far as I know, he is not selling ecm's.
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Report this Post11-13-2007 07:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RideZiLightningSend a Private Message to RideZiLightningDirect Link to This Post
That turbo is wayyyyyyyyy too small for a 2.8. The te04h came off the 2.2 chrysler motors, and they were PATHETIC on those motors
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Report this Post11-17-2007 06:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mr.PBodyClick Here to visit Mr.PBody's HomePageClick Here to Email Mr.PBodySend a Private Message to Mr.PBodyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by N2weeks:

why would you want to use a "small" t3 from a volvo or any 80's turbo car for that matter? i think turbo tech. has come a long way in the last few years....hence 2.0 evolutions making almost 300 bhp on a 16g and making older guys with v8s angry when they go DOWN!

You're like the worst troll ever.
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Report this Post11-17-2007 11:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DEMONCHILDClick Here to Email DEMONCHILDSend a Private Message to DEMONCHILDDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RideZiLightning:

That turbo is wayyyyyyyyy too small for a 2.8. The te04h came off the 2.2 chrysler motors, and they were PATHETIC on those motors


i only want 4-6 psi of boost nothing major so why wont it work?
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Report this Post11-18-2007 02:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for KaijuSensoSend a Private Message to KaijuSensoDirect Link to This Post
a small turbo means it spools up fast for quick power , but in turn it will heat up far to quick if undersized and become useless really fast
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Report this Post11-18-2007 04:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for gt88normSend a Private Message to gt88normDirect Link to This Post
I don't think I saw mention of a two bar MAP sensor, but for 6-8 psi is it needed? It's been a while since I thought about this stuff.

Norm
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Report this Post11-18-2007 09:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for project34Send a Private Message to project34Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by gt88norm:
I don't think I saw mention of a two bar MAP sensor, but for 6-8 psi is it needed?

Like you, I'm thinking of only a moderate level of turbocharged boost for my car.

Unfortunately, I think the short answer to your question is "Yes."
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Leafy
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Report this Post11-18-2007 03:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LeafyClick Here to Email LeafySend a Private Message to LeafyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DEMONCHILD:
will the prom chips work with my 86 ecm?

how do i hook up the wastegate regulator ?..... im assuming it works off vaccume


1.turbo ~check
2. pipes ~check
3.boost gauge ~check
4.injectors ~check
5.boost regulator ~check
6.waste gate regulator ~check
7.mod egr ~check
8. 3 prom chips ~check

what else am i missing or in need of??


Intercooler... Believe me, you'll want one.

------------------
2006 Cobalt SS Supercharged
1986 Fiero GT 2.8L 4 speed

www.purevolume.com/seanrainey

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